Chris Gilbert Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Hi all I need some help with a new layout in my office I have a space of 10 feet by 15 inches and is viewable from front and right hand side It needs to be US in the mid 90's onwards.F I've made several attempts including the APU spur (Alaska) and BNSF switching layout and a layout yard. I've even tried an O gauge inglenook but still not found anything I'm happy withH. I've waited 35 years for a permanent layout space and have now gone completely blank. Any help would greatfully received Thanks Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof Klyzlr Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Hi all I need some help with a new layout in my office I have a space of 10 feet by 15 inches and is viewable from front and right hand side It needs to be US in the mid 90's onwards.F I've made several attempts including the APU spur (Alaska) and BNSF switching layout and a layout yard. I've even tried an O gauge inglenook but still not found anything I'm happy withH. I've waited 35 years for a permanent layout space and have now gone completely blank. Any help would greatfully received Thanks Chris Dear Chris, Oh my, if you've "drawn a blank", what hope the rest of us? Seriously, there obviously were some things about the range of solutions you've tried that did _not_ "gel" or feel right. What were they? Can you identify them? If so, this may help you work out what _will_ suit. The solutions you've mentioned already testing are, I suspect, along the same lines that many here would have as their "go to" or "instinctive" options. When all else fails, return to known base-information (The "Givens and Druthurs") - Size? (known: 10' x 1' 3", does this include "offscene staging"?) - Preferred number of operators? - Preferred "Job" you'd like to perform on the railroad? (Railfan? Engineer? Brakeman/Conductor? CTC/Tower op? Other?) - Preferred Scale/gauge? (assume nothing, existing equipment "in hand" may be holding you back, think "blue sky theory") - Any preferred prototype "theme" or "inspiration"? (doesn't need to be slavishly proto, taking "base inspiration" from a prototype, and interpreting into a proto-lance/freelance context, is a very valid way forward...) Chris, we're all here for you... anything we can do to help, just ask... Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 How about a bit of street running? Or a really down-at-heel shortline with a mix of industrial and rural settings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Chris, Firstly I wanted to say "lucky you" all that space..... wish I had your office I think Prof, in his post above has wisely outlined some key questions which you need to ask yourself, before embarking on anything Do you currently have any stock at all? Is there a way of employing that, if you answered yes to the above... If like me, you are interested in many different railways, and enjoy modelling in several different scales / gauges, then I can understand your dillema But perhaps you should first attempt a very small layout / diorama to hone your skills, realise where your strengths + weaknesses lie? It may also help to guide you toward a larger project... Take a look at some of the excellent minimum-space and inglenook projects on here I would reccommend Stubbys boxfile and micro layouts.... Just a thought, but it may be worth considering, before biting the bullet, so to speak And again Chris, there are many like-minded modellers on this forum, who are only too happy to help & advise Most of all though, good luck & let us know how you get on Cheers & "Hwyl" from South Wales Marc PS Trawl the forum, look at you own books / DVDs + photos and find something which inspires you..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Hi Chris, The Prof has covered the key questions. I think for me the bviggie is what's grabbing your attention? Has anything on railpictures caught your eye recently? I've still got much of the WSOR stock if you fancy a return to the Haston theme... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 I've just rung him and suggested something on the "Blue sky thinking" that he hasn't done before - a Freight Interurban - he won't build that in a weekend! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof Klyzlr Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Hi Chris, The Prof has covered the key questions. I think for me the bviggie is what's grabbing your attention? Has anything on railpictures caught your eye recently? I've still got much of the WSOR stock if you fancy a return to the Haston theme... Dear Chris, Unsure if this will help, but I have to tell you that Haston has and is actively inspiring a local O scale US 2R modeller to build a 12x2 show layout. The trackplan has undergone some tweaking (the diamond crossing got lost in the iterative process, ), but rest assured that your work has most definitely influenced some modellers more than you will ever realise... Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof Klyzlr Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 I've just rung him and suggested something on the "Blue sky thinking" that he hasn't done before - a Freight Interurban - he won't build that in a weekend! Jack, "Freight Interurban", what, like Traction Freight Hauler? (Thinking Iowa/Mason City???) Hmmm, overhead trolleypoles and full-sized freight cars... Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr PS 298 gets into SW1500s, Chris takes up Freight motors, it's a straight-swap of themes... ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Yes - just a change of pace/style/type/era A change is as good as a rest, maybe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Gilbert Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 Dear Prof, Thank you, I am in good hands. Right, lets start (The "Givens and Druthurs") - Size? (known: 10' x 1' 3", does this include "offscene staging"?) staging will have to be on the layout - Preferred number of operators? one possibly two (Engineer and Conductor) - Preferred "Job" you'd like to perform on the railroad? (Railfan? Engineer? Brakeman/Conductor? CTC/Tower op? Other?) Switch crew I guess - Preferred Scale/gauge? (assume nothing, existing equipment "in hand" may be holding you back, think "blue sky theory") N gauge stock to hand 8 BN era locos 100 plus assorted freight cars including hoppers boxcars tanks etc. HO too many to list but roads include UP BNSF ATSF BN ARR CSX FEC TRI-RAIL IHB plus locos used on Haston. 300 plus assorted freight cars including hoppers boxcars tanks etc Currently building up stock for my CTU Alaska layout, which will be extended by 4 feet before I take in to the NEC this November. plus I also picked up 12 refers for 298 at Nottingham 12 O gauge freight cars 1980's onward - Any preferred prototype "theme" or "inspiration"? (doesn't need to be slavishly proto, taking "base inspiration" from a prototype, and interpreting into a proto-lance/freelance context, is a very valid way forward...) that's the real problem... too many. Marc thanks for your kind words. Jon. I might take you up on that. Jack I'm not sure about that idea.... Some photos below to show what it looks like Thanks again Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 I'm not too good at designing trackplans, but something that keeps coming back to me in this case is a Car float or Train Ferry- you could either remove it entirely, or make it the staging area (possibly with another at the other end of the layout, and a few other industry spurs). Something I've not seen done in model form is having two Switchers loading or unloading it at the same time to balance the car float. Whatever you decide Chris, having the end boards 18" wide with a single track in the middle could always lead to new and exciting possibilities.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 ...But perhaps you should first attempt a very small layout / diorama to hone your skills, realise where your strengths + weaknesses lie? As Chris has much better things to do than spend lots of his time on Forums, he perhaps isn't as well 'known' on here as he could be... so it's not your fault, Marc, and I don't doubt your good intent, but believe me, this will be far from Chris's "first attempt"....... it's much as The Prof says - if Chris of all people draws a blank - what hope for the rest of us..?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof Klyzlr Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Dear Chris, Couple of things: 1 - OK, we got some good G&D info there, - Size confirmed (not always the _starting_ place, but more often than not ) - that staging must fit _within_ the stated footprint/area, - and switching ops preferred ("Switching ops" still doesn't answer the question though Do you want to - be the engineer driving the loco and navigating a maze of trackage? - be the brakeman, and having to do the mental gymnastics to most-effectively/efficiently switch the cars? - be a railfan , standing trackside, watching "the local switch job" go about it's business? Sounds "airy fairy", but the "Job" or "Perspective" that you wish to emulate on the RR has direct effects on - trackplan - visual scene/scenic development - electronics levels - percentage "full manual control <> full auto "animated" operation") 2- However we also got some "wishy washy" responses that suggest to me that, just maybe, you're launching into this build with _not_enough_ "confirmed core theme/premise". Like the old sawby says "If you aim at everything in general, you'll hit nothing in particular" (And potentially waste a lot of time, effort, and enthusiasm, not to mention potentially $$$, in the process!!!) In this case, you've identifed that the previous attempts, while possibly being "good layouts" in their own right, haven't "grabbed you" and "captivated yor attention" (or at the very least, "felt right-enough" in situ to stick with them. Why is that? Which buttons did they _fail_ to press? Which boxes of the G&D list did they _NOT_ tick?). 3- It's accepted that you have more than enough equipment on hand, covering a wide range of prototypes, in a reasonably wide range of scales, to populate most any geographic area or "themed" layout, which is why the qualifiers were "assume nothing...blue sky theory" (and no, I wasn't trying to subconsciously suggest Conrail ;-) ). Normally "having all the gear you might ever need onhand" would be a good thing, unless it becomes a "too many options"/"can't see the forest for the trees" mental roadblock SO, break the dependency! Think not "do I have the gear to do this?", but rather "First, what do I really _want_ to model, and _then_ Second, what gear would I need to build it?" (you may find that either some of the existing gear can be kitbashed into the newer/preferred theme, OR it may be time to let some of the "hangers-on" go, in order to finance the "stuff the new theme really needs"...) 4- Before you've actually nailed down the "what job do you wish to perform", I'm loathe to make furthur comment. (As noted above, this seemingly insignificant detail has knock-on effects to most every other design criteria). However, from the existing G&D list, I would have thought that a truly "hands-on"-operational rendition of a O scale proto-nook or similar, (IE simple trackplan with room for scenic embellishment, carspot-switching for on-going "ops value" far in excess of it's relatively small footprint, and hands-on switching with uncoupler-pics rather than magnets), with a switcher and a "ducks behind a small dummy viewblock/warehouse foil" staging track (think Jack's "Box St" and similar), would have been the best match thus far. 5- from the photos, I have to say my first impressions were - I think I can understand why it's not "grabbing you" (Maybe, the mess and masses of parallel lines are a _symtom_ of the boredom? "Yards" are what they are, and they are hard to scenic in a manner which "grabs the attention" of most people. Large, flat, and just tracks-on-tracks with cars-on-cars...) - Too much equipment, not a squeak of room to move (even "micro switchers" need to be careful to avoid the "only 1 slot open"/tic-tac-toe op scheme. I understand "construction mess", but a messy construction area is a recipe for frustration as you spend minutes searching every time you reach for the next required tool/model/component/item. I have a layout at the moment which has had more work done on it in the last 72 hours than in the preceeding 18 months, because I made a conscious effort to spend 90 minutes to get it into a position and state where I wasn't fighting the clutter just to lay a 3' length of track...). - the shot with the 3 pass cars in the foreground, wasn't sure if I was seeing a section of the "Larry's Truck and Electric" or "NRE" breaking-down yard (what with the decoder/"electrical cabinent" and pulled-drawbar lying on the ground in the mud, the obviously wrecked diesels on their sides, and all... ;-) ). Chris, you have an area available which many Micro-layout bods would kill to have, and the skills to make a really stand-out "cameo" piece here. I'm going to paraphrase Jackie Chan here, and with utmost respect suggest "it appears that your focus needs more focus"... Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 How about an Interchange between between a major railroad and an independent shortline? I like the one between the NS and Black River and Western at Three Bridges, NJ. Not cramped yet you could fit it in, interesting, workable track layout. Combination of mainline locos and old small locos. Still working in the 21st Century. The basic layout could be moved just about anywhere in the US. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 How about an Interchange between between a major railroad and an independent shortline? I like the one between the NS and Black River and Western at Three Bridges, NJ. Not cramped yet you could fit it in, interesting, workable track layout. Combination of mainline locos and old small locos. Still working in the 21st Century. The basic layout could be moved just about anywhere in the US. Best, Pete. I think that's a great idea - my old Woodville concept was originally intended to be the interchange between a class 1 (UP) and a regional (WSOR) or a shortline (freelance Badger Creek & Woodville). My thoughts for the Dillon, Badger Creek & Woodville are a similar UP/Shortline interchange in the Austin/San Antonio area. I like 298's car float idea - given 298's current interest in the Pacific Northwest, perhaps a car float up there might appeal. Finally, on a more general note, I know modelers in the US used to (not sure if they still do) physically mail cars between layouts to introduce new stock - would a similar concept work here - maybe not with our super-detailed cars but could we come up with a reasonably secure/cheap way of interchanging cars using Royal Mail or a courier or someone, to move cars between Scotland and West Mids, or wherever. Or in this day and age, is it a waste of time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Just to throw some roads into the mix, how about the the NY&AR/LIRR? Freight and passenger. Or Conrail Shared assetsin New Jersey http://www.the-gauge...php?f=26&t=4204 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 How about an Interchange between between a major railroad and an independent shortline? A very good idea - it also justifies running more than one loco/one Railroad on a small layout which logic would dictate usually has just one..... I like the one between the NS and Black River and Western at Three Bridges, NJ. Not cramped yet you could fit it in, .... "Not cramped" you ain't kidding, Pete....!!! :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Personally I would just build something extremely generic, a trackplan with several switching option, with some blank paved "pads" you can put buildings on. Then you can swap out buildings and rolling stock to suit your fancy. I don't see any indication that you have settled on any one theme, almost every suggestion sounds interesting. The interchange with a shortline is a good idea, but you've already done that and moved on. What will make it different this time? When asked for G&D, you didn't provide G&D as much as an inventory. You didn't even settle on a scale. If you are going to go off in many directions (and that has been your past experience) , build something that will embrace your wide variety of interests. Build with teh intent to change. Then you don't have to choose just one, you can do them all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Just to throw some roads into the mix, how about the the NY&AR/LIRR? Freight and passenger. Or Conrail Shared assetsin New Jersey http://www.the-gauge...php?f=26&t=4204 Now that's a good idea. Conrail shared assets is a great subject. But what about the chocolate branch. Pete - what was it called - the Wilbur chocolate place? That would be really doable - especially the terminal. Great buildings. I'll go dig out the magazine. Personally I would just build something extremely generic, a trackplan with several switching option, with some blank paved "pads" you can put buildings on. Then you can swap out buildings and rolling stock to suit your fancy. I don't see any indication that you have settled on any one theme, almost every suggestion sounds interesting. The interchange with a shortline is a good idea, but you've already done that and moved on. What will make it different this time? When asked for G&D, you didn't provide G&D as much as an inventory. You didn't even settle on a scale. If you are going to go off in many directions (and that has been your past experience) , build something that will embrace your wide variety of interests. Build with teh intent to change. Then you don't have to choose just one, you can do them all. Whilst I don't want to speak for Chris, might I tentatively suggest that its been the slightly generic nature of modern industrial switching layouts which has led to Chris's impasse. (Chris, feel free to shoot me down in flames if I'm barking up the wrong tree.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Now that's a good idea. Conrail shared assets is a great subject. But what about the chocolate branch. Pete - what was it called - the Wilbur chocolate place? That would be really doable - especially the terminal. Great buildings. I'll go dig out the magazine. Didn't need to - remembered now - Lititz PA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Thanks. I've been watching the "Enterprise" on it's final journey to New York..........Lititz it is - a branch off the Harrisburg mainline in PA. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Chris you have email. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Here's a photo of NS 2584 (a SD 70M) sitting on the BR & W interchange at Three Bridges. Looks outlandish there doesn't it???? http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=183561 Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Whilst I don't want to speak for Chris, might I tentatively suggest that its been the slightly generic nature of modern industrial switching layouts which has led to Chris's impasse. They are only generic if you don't pick a specific spot. 8-) Since these smaller layouts seem to be built and abandoned fairly quickly, I would suggest finding a dozen cool places to model, put them on a list and then just start at the top and work your way down. No need to fret over finding another location, go to the next neat switching area on the list. Don't do one, do them all, serially. You could even change scales between layouts, #1 in HO, #2 in N, #3 in O. That might be part of the challenge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof Klyzlr Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Dear Jon G, Chris, et al, I was recently involved with some "modelgenic" investigation of the CSX "the Chocolate" switching area, off the eastern side of the NEC @ Mansfield, Mass. As it stands, "the Chocolate" can be built with _no_ compression in N scale in 10x7 if you go all the way to the end of the pass, just shy of Maple St, or in 10x2 if you stage the Maple St turnout and the "lead" heading back to the NEC interchange. Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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