Miss Prism Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Question 1. Is it actually a Stove R? My guess is that it is an LMS pre-Stanier version of the 1932 Stove R. Question 2. Did the GWR have any 6-wheeled vans similar to a Stove R? I think the V13 was the last 6-wheel passenger brake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 On the question of the length of milk tanks there has been some chat on this on the 2mm group and it was suggested that the maximum for a King was 17 tankers. I've seen photos of 17 full milk tanks behind a Castle between Neath and Cardiff on the South Wales Main Line. The limit for a Castle on this section of line apparently was 500 tons which is about right for 17 tanks. The maximum will also depend on the line used as well as the number of tanks. I would have thought that 17 would have been more than plenty for a King over the South Devon banks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 The limit for a King over the South Devon banks was just 360 tons. On the flat it was over 500 tons. There was one milk run which was regularly digrammed for King haulage but I cannot remember off the top of my head which one it was. I will try to look it up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 The limit for a King over the South Devon banks was just 360 tons. That's not suprising, those were some steep Hills! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2012 Milk trains were regularly double headed over the Devon banks. I have never seen any pictorial evidence of a King on a milk train from the south west though. Plenty of Castles and Halls, even a WD but never a King. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I wish I could remember which milk train it was that was digrammed for King haulage. I can't find my original reference so best to treat it as unsubstantiated for the time being. It may not have been the Penzance milk train. I have a copy of the loading restritctions for milk trains from the mid-50s. Castles, Counties and Britannias were limited to 315 tons up the banks. Kings are not listed individually (suggesting they were not regularly used here) but are noted as being as per a Castle + 45 tons. 4-6-0s were most common on milk trains but 8 and 10-coupled locos could be used too. The big 4700s were designed for fast freight and were regulars on milk trains. Whilst they were not allowed into Cornwall, they sometimes took over milk trains at Plymouth. I have a photo of 4701 on the Penzance to Kensington milk at Exeter in 1956. I also have a picture of 3832 topping Hemerdon with the same train on a different date. Even 9fs could be seen on milk trains like this example at Newton Abbot. http://www.flickr.com/photos/arthurmorley/4294742561/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 4-6-0s were most common on milk trains but 8 and 10-coupled locos could be used too. The big 4700s were designed for fast freight and were regulars on milk trains. Whilst they were not allowed into Cornwall, they sometimes took over milk trains at Plymouth. I have a photo of 4701 on the Penzance to Kensington milk at Exeter in 1956. I also have a picture of 3832 topping Hemerdon with the same train on a different date. Even 9fs could be seen on milk trains like this example at Newton Abbot. http://www.flickr.co...ley/4294742561/ Nice link. I don't think I've ever seen a 9F on a milk train before. Likely that the picture was taken when 92224 was allocated to Laira. I've never seen anything other than Castles and Counties on the full trains from South Wales. In the fifties the Whitland to Kennsington was a Swindon turn from Felin Fran and they often used ex-works engines but always it seems the big 4-6-0s. The 4700 would have been perfect engines for this type of traffic, after all they were designed for fast freight services. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted November 2, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 2, 2012 Does Hornby or Bachmann make a full brake Milk Siphon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Does Hornby or Bachmann make a full brake Milk Siphon? I am not sure what you mean by a full brake milk siphon. Siphons were designed for carrying milk churns (and later parcels when milk switched to tanker transport), but they were not brake vehicles and they had not accomodation for the guard. As noted previously in the thread, there are various GWR full-brakes available although the only RTR vehicle is the Hornby Hawksworth full brake (which is technically BR rather than GWR). If you are asking about the Siphons themselves then Hornby have made the Siphon G and H in the past (the G is probably more suitable). Not sure if it is in the current catalogue but it should not be hard to track down examples to buy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted November 2, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 2, 2012 I am not sure what you mean by a full brake milk siphon. Siphons were designed for carrying milk churns (and later parcels when milk switched to tanker transport), but they were not brake vehicles and they had not accomodation for the guard. As noted previously in the thread, there are various GWR full-brakes available although the only RTR vehicle is the Hornby Hawksworth full brake (which is technically BR rather than GWR). If you are asking about the Siphons themselves then Hornby have made the Siphon G and H in the past (the G is probably more suitable). Not sure if it is in the current catalogue but it should not be hard to track down examples to buy. So that answers my original question of the GWR coupling up an empty full brake coach to the end of a milk train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted November 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2012 As silly as this sounds asking, would fruit vans be used in the broccoli trade by the GWR? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted November 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2012 As silly as this sounds asking, would fruit vans be used in the broccoli trade by the GWR? Have a look at the photos for Gwinear road station and you'll find images of all sorts of vans being used for this purpose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think they used anything (clean) that would run to get the broccoli to market. cattle wagons very common, but iirc I've also seen evidence of open wagons being used for this purpose. here, found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I_TJSlStlw&feature=related the first segment is on the broccoli trade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted May 31, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2013 Always a full brake (BG) if it was to run at express speeds as milk trains almost always were (they didn't want the contents arriving curdled). The exceptions would be a creamery on a branch line where tanks might be tripped to the junction in order to be attached to one of the fast milk trains to London. In practice this was almost always done as tail traffic on passenger services (e.g. Hemyock, Saltash). In theory, if a branchline lacked a passenger service on a particular day (sundays in some cases), you might have got the trip working being made with a toad instead but I have not seen any photographic proof of this. If you can tell us where you modelling and when, I may be able to give more details. Do you have any idea about the split between dairies/creameries serviced by the mainline and a branchline? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I have a soft spot for Milk trains. A favourite is a shot from the Geoff Bannister web site of an O1 heading north on the up slow line about half a mile north of Wandsworth Common station, hauling a Southern Brake and a de-mountable milk tank. Taken on 4th July 1859 Copyright = Geoff Bannister Any idea of origin and destination stations? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 CWS was the main user of demountable tanks on the SR I believe. They had bottling plants at Woolwich and East Croydon. If it is at Wandsworth Common then it was probably heading north with an emmpty from East Croydon (based on the shadows). I think that the demountable tankers were filled at the dairy in Bruton and loaded onto the railway at Cole. The CWS had various dairies on the SR and WR so the service could have been for one of those but Bruton is the only one I have heard of specifically mentioning the demountable tankers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted March 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2015 Just to revive this thread again, I have a question. What would be the typical GW passenger brake vehicle that would be used on a mid to late 1930s milk working? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 What would be the typical GW passenger brake vehicle that would be used on a mid to late 1930s milk working? There were a great many vehicles in use for this traffic. In general, older vehicles were preferred with newer ones being more likely on passenger trains. In the 1930s, I would have expected to still see quite a few Dean clerestory brakes about and plenty of Toplights too. The rather quaint O13 milk brakes were also in service at this time (one of which is preserved on the SVR). http://bestieboy.smugmug.com/Trains/Severn-Valley-Railway/i-KXs8RcM/0/O/1399%20GWR%20Guard%20Brake%20van%20Ply,%20Churchward%20BY%20(Milk%20Brake)%20-Bewdley,%20Severn%20Valley%20Railway%2006.10.12%20%20Warbo40.jpg Having said all that, it was not unknown for new build vehicles to be allocated to the milk run. Collett K41 full brake 144 was allocated to the Whitland - Wood Lane service from new in 1936 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2015 This K14 is a nice short vehicle useful for space starved modellers Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I have never seen any pictorial evidence of a King on a milk train from the south west though. Plenty of Castles and Halls, even a WD but never a King. For some years the 3.50pm Whitland-Kensington was diagrammed for a King or a gas turbine loco on alternative nights between Swindon and Southall. So you are right it was not from the south west but from Wales (and only for part of the journey). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Just to revive this thread again, I have a question. What would be the typical GW passenger brake vehicle that would be used on a mid to late 1930s milk working? A 40' Dean van (like the aforementioned K14) would be likely, but a later vehicle is possible. Since it likely wouldn't be carrying milk (not enough ventilation), it would probably be the smallest vehicle that could be found. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Here is an interesting picture although a little out of period for OnTheBranchline's request. It shows Caynham Court in Sonning Cutting with a milk train including a very elderly Dean Brake. I don't have a date for the picture but I suspect it is in the late 40s based on the freshly applied silver livery on the milk tanks that has not yet had a chance to turn the typical grey/brown. http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/images/CaynhamCourt.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Here is an interesting picture although a little out of period for OnTheBranchline's request. It shows Caynham Court in Sonning Cutting with a milk train including a very elderly Dean Brake. I don't have a date for the picture but I suspect it is in the late 40s based on the freshly applied silver livery on the milk tanks that has not yet had a chance to turn the typical grey/brown. http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/images/CaynhamCourt.jpg That is a later modification of the Dean van as it has had its duckets removed. A lot of them got that modification. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2015 I may have one of those as well but still with the duckets I have a few clerestories Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 9, 2015 There were a great many vehicles in use for this traffic. In general, older vehicles were preferred with newer ones being more likely on passenger trains. In the 1930s, I would have expected to still see quite a few Dean clerestory brakes about and plenty of Toplights too. The rather quaint O13 milk brakes were also in service at this time (one of which is preserved on the SVR). http://bestieboy.smugmug.com/Trains/Severn-Valley-Railway/i-KXs8RcM/0/O/1399%20GWR%20Guard%20Brake%20van%20Ply,%20Churchward%20BY%20(Milk%20Brake)%20-Bewdley,%20Severn%20Valley%20Railway%2006.10.12%20%20Warbo40.jpg Having said all that, it was not unknown for new build vehicles to be allocated to the milk run. Collett K41 full brake 144 was allocated to the Whitland - Wood Lane service from new in 1936 Are any of these prototypical vehicles in plastic kit form? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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