Full Brake for a Milk Train?

[richbrummitt]

 

Was the kit complete or what components did you have to add?

 

"Get em while you can..." - Their website is up and running - is there an issue with Blacksmith that I need to know about?

 

 

I've no idea what the situation is with Blacksmith so take my comments with a generous slug of salt. I built a reduction to 2mm so it was supplied without any castings that we're in the 4mm version. I'll have a look for the instructions, which are from the larger version, but they might have gone in the bin once I'd finished construction.

[buffalo]

...Their website is up and running...

Well, at least they have fixed the errors that I told them about a year ago so we can now see the pages in browsers other than IE, but there is still a lot of tidying up to do...

 

Nick

[M.I.B]

Despite emails and answer phone messages to Blacksmith - nothing heard. Anyone have any contact other than what is shown on their website?

 

I can't believe how hard it is to spend money with them!

[Coach bogie]

Despite emails and answer phone messages to Blacksmith - nothing heard. Anyone have any contact other than what is shown on their website?

 

I can't believe how hard it is to spend money with them!

 

 

They are booked for Bracknell this weekend. It will be interesting to see if they appear. A reliable source has stated that the new owners are to pursue 7mm only in the future. One cottage industry kit supplier, who use Blacksmith components within their kits,, reports they cannot get supplies either.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[kandc_au]

It would help though if they could answer emails/phone messages!

Cannot help/not available/anything.........is better than leaving people in the dark!

 

Khris

[chrisf]

They are not listed in the show guide either. This is the show guide that has a photo of Ynysybwl purporting to be Clutton on the front page so your guess is as good as mine.

 

Chris

[London cambrian]

Going back to karhedron's first comment, i have sen various pictures of the milk train from Hemyock, especially in later days the trains were formed of 2 or 3 milk tankers with a BR standard or Ex GWR toad brake van. On main line, because of the express speeds they ran at (a loaded milk tanker is the same weight as a passenger coach, around 25 tons) brake vans in but the most exceptional circumstances were banned, though i have seen the dorrington milk, a major train in its day, running with two tankers, a br brake van and an ex GCR A5 tank running bunker first.

 

Full brake were almost exclusive, the LMS favourd their six wheel stove Rs, the GWR indeed have their Milk brakes, LNER probably used Gresley full brakes.

 

Milk tanker trains are big discussion in GL5, theres many projects to build up a rake. In the future i'm looking to build a few myself, and the one of the milk brakes, even an outside framed siphon G would look well.

 

And will someone plese, a) confirm, B) tell everyone else that milk tankers dont run in goods trains other than on branch trains occasionally. Mostly they run on Passenger trains!

 

Cheers all

 

mark

[Karhedron]

And will someone plese, a) confirm, B) tell everyone else that milk tankers dont run in goods trains other than on branch trains occasionally. Mostly they run on Passenger trains!

Most often they ran in dedicated trains at express speeds but sometimes you would get tankers as tail traffic on a passenger train. Moreton-in-the-Marsh is a good example of this. It was not on the route of any other milk trains and did not generate enough tankers for its own dedicated train (usually it peaked at 3 tanks, twice a day). So these tanks were usally added as tail traffic to a Paddington express and then tripped from there to either Wood Lane or Kensington.

 

But you are right, milk tankers in normal freight trains were about as common as hen's teeth. Even when tripping the empties, they would normally be run with other NPCCS like parcel vans rather than in a freight train.

[The Stationmaster]

Dammit - post just vanished so start again!

 

From July 1949 it was specifically prohibited to convey milk tanks in freight trains unless special authority was given by the Operations Manager (which would have been in writing of course). I've gone right back to the mid 1930s in GWR documents but can find nothing prior to the 1949 Instruction although the earlier Instructions stated that 'milk tanks may be attached to any passenger train', and no mention of freights. 6 wheel tanks were permitted to be formed in any position but in late 1949 this was amplified to say 'except between vehicle conveying passengers', 4 wheel cars had only been permitted to be attached to the rear of a passenger train on the GWR.

 

I suspect the 1949 prohibition on using freights had been issued because it had come to light that 'someone somewhere' was taking a few liberties - and no doubt damaging the milk in the process. The freight prohibition was incidentally repeated in Instructions from the 1960s.

 

The speed of 6 wheeled milk tanks was restricted to 60mph loaded/50 mph empty in the late 1960s. My memory suggests it was late 1968 but the only dated published reference I can find is March 1969 although this in all likelihood repeated an earlier Instruction. This effectively barred milk tanks from many passenger trains and led to the deceleration of milk trains (and I bet the 1000s then became distinctly unpopular on milk empties!).

 

Milk was of course passenger rated traffic - not freight - and would therefore normally pass on passenger or perishables type trains and not on freights

[Rugd1022]

Good stuff Mike... Roger Geach notes alongside one of his published Western photos that the Milk always had a good run and nothing was allowed to get in it's way, and even some of the engineering posessions on the South Devon mainline were planned around it's booked paths well into the 1970s. The fact that the returning empties were restricted to 50mph was certainly overlooked a few times by certain drivers, all or most of whom have no doubt passed away by now - I recall seeing D1045 hammering through Dawlish late one evening in foul weather while a friend and I were camped out on the station, those six wheeled tanks were bouncing about all over the place at a rate of knots that seemed some way above the regulation 50... nothing else had gone down for over an hour before so the driver must have known he had a clear run to Newton!

[The Stationmaster]

Good stuff Mike... Roger Geach notes alongside one of his published Western photos that the Milk always had a good run and nothing was allowed to get in it's way, and even some of the engineering posessions on the South Devon mainline were planned around it's booked paths well into the 1970s. The fact that the returning empties were restricted to 50mph was certainly overlooked a few times by certain drivers, all or most of whom have no doubt passed away by now - I recall seeing D1045 hammering through Dawlish late one evening in foul weather while a friend and I were camped out on the station, those six wheeled tanks were bouncing about all over the place at a rate of knots that seemed some way above the regulation 50... nothing else had gone down for over an hour before so the driver must have known he had a clear run to Newton!

Engineering work was planned around a number of things back in 'real railway' days when one had the impression that moving traffic was regarded as more important than digging up the railway. Hence it would be planned around milk, newspaper and certain postal trains and even, on occasion, around some freight trains.

 

As far as 1000s 'speeding' on milk empties concerned I can - in some respects - quite understand the Driver doing so (although not excuse him of course) because at 50 mph the loco would almost certainly be in the dreaded 'Western bounce' mode and not at all comfortable to ride on (as more than a few Westbury men used to moan about on similarly timed stone trains). The one thing you did not do though was go over the top with loaded milk trains unless you were tuppence short of a shilling because the effect on one of them from sudden or hard braking had to be experienced to be believed

[OnTheBranchline]

Were most of the milk trains express? I.E, travel on its own or were they coupled to passenger trains (express or between cities)?

[London cambrian]

Milk trains were treated as express trains, ran at same sort of speeds as some on occasions, they were important traffic. (As has already been mentioned a loaded tank was the same weight as a passenger coach, approx 25 tons)

 

They ran in block trains puicking up portions or combining with others for onward transpor to cities. Small numbers were tagged onto the back of local trains for tranpsort to either a smaller plant or to be made into big trains for transport to cities. I would imagine the numbers would be limited to max about 5 as tail traffic, just considering the weight, but more comonly one or two.

 

Most of the timeif a milk tanker is formed into a passenger train, its on a branhc or local line, going to a junction or concentration point to be put into a larger train bound for cities or towns.

[The Stationmaster]

Milk trains were, hmm, 'Milk Trains' period. Milk tanks could be attached to passenger trains as tail traffic (see post No.35 above) but otherwise were conveyed in Milk Trains. These were Class C trains, latterly from 1960 Class 3, and could PRIOR TO 1950 run as perishables, fruit, fish, meat, horsebox, or cattle trains provided all vehicles were continuously braked. Class C also included certain express freight trains.

 

From May 1950 the classification was revised and Class C Parcels, fish, fruit, livestock, meat pigeon or perishable trains had to be composed entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching stock requirements. Class C express freights were subject to different requirements (with a different signalling bell code as previously) and from that date ECS trains not running with Class A lamps also joined Class C, with their own bell code.

 

When the standard classifications were altered to numeric in 1960 Class C ceased to apply to freight trains but remained in use for perishables etc trains and ECS - with different signalling bell codes (n.b. the Eastern had classified numerically instead of by letter in earlier years so don't confuse the 1960 Class 3 with whatever theirs had meant).

 

The Class 3 headcode was changed again in May 1969 at which time perishables etc trains ceased to exist and Milk Trains became part of Class 6, as Class 6(a), which - due to the way the headcodes were then reorganised - recognised their reduced speed and the fact that they were by then slower than some freight trains.

[OnTheBranchline]

What about fruit 'trains' or fruit vans?

[The Stationmaster]

What about fruit 'trains' or fruit vans?

???? - as above. What do you mean?

[OnTheBranchline]

???? - as above. What do you mean?

 

I meant, would there be separate fruit trains and such. Or would they be coupled behind a passing passenger train (passing by the farm where the fruit came from) and such?

[cary hill]

I meant, would there be separate fruit trains and such. Or would they be coupled behind a passing passenger train (passing by the farm where the fruit came from) and such?

 

One example of a fruit train would have been the banana trains from Avonmouth (near Bristol) which ran to major population centres in the U.K, such as London and Birmingham.

 

Apparently in the 1930's Elders and Fyffes had a fleet of 36 vessels importing bananas into Avonmouth, which was the biggest banana importing centre in Europe at the time.

 

Three ships arrived each fortnight and the GWR provided a fleet of vacuum fitted steam heated railway vans specifically for this banana trade.Routes/paths were reserved in the Service Time Tables to allow these special steam heated trains to reach major UK cities quickly. For example the Birmingham Moor Street banana train ran as required(RR) under an express freight © headcode taking 4hrs 20mins to complete the journey from Avonmouth to Birmingham.

 

I think there were also extra special "perishables" fast goods trains from Penzance for many years conveying potatoes, broccoli, fish, fruit and flowers from West Cornwall and the Scilly Isles, because the mild climate in the area meant that, fish apart, the produce was available earlier, ready to go market and could command high prices in London,Bristol, Birmingham etc.

 

Special "tomato" trains were run also from Southampton and Weymouth to cope with Channel Island (Guernsey) early season tomatoes.

 

Other regions are available - you need to remember that historically(and even today) the U.K. has always imported a large percentage of it's food requirements and this would have needed similar railway traffic arrangements to be in place at most major import centres until relatively recent times.

 

Other RMWebbers may be able to provide details of similar workings in other parts of the country

[Fat Controller]

Don't forget that some railways (the GWR,for example) had both passenger-rated and 'goods' Fruit vans; the passenger-rated vehicles could be attached to main-line passenger services, benefitting from their faster transit times. The goods fruit vans might be conveyed as tail traffic for short distances, but would ultimately be attached to other goods vehicles and forwarded under freight timings.

The Cornish broccoli (in fact cauliflowers) trains would be composed of a mixture of stock, apart from specialised Fruit vans; there would be cattle vans and even open wagons amongst them; similar workings conveyed new potatoes. Flowers were usually sent from the Scillies (via Penzance) in passenger-rated stock attached to express parcels or passenger trains- the preferred stock would appear to be Siphon Gs in later years, as these had fold-down shelves on the sides, as well as plenty of ventilation. The Cornish traffic, along with the imported traffic from the various ports (Barry was another centre for the banana traffic on the GWR), was sufficient to merit 'block' trains to the major centres.

Other areas producing large amounts of fruit and vegetable traffic were that around Evesham, and the Fens (notably around Ely and Whitemoor); the Forfar branch in Scotland had a very specialised traffic in seed potatoes, despatched in ordinary vans to destinations throughout the UK.

Another GWR speciality were strawberries from the Cheddar area- again, I believe these had Siphon Gs dedicated to their conveyance in later years.

[M.I.B]

See the reply I had from Blacksmith yesterday http://www.rmweb.co....r-4mm-siphon-f/

 

Thanks - I was just about to post that I too have managed to get hold of them by phone.

[kandc_au]

I've rung 3 times so I shall just have to try again!

 

khris

[OnTheBranchline]

Would horse boxes go with the cattle vans?

[Oldddudders]

Would horse boxes go with the cattle vans?

Very unlikely. While both convey livestock, they were totally different in their value to the railway. Horseboxes were premium traffic, carrying a valuable animal or two, often racehorses to/from meetings or bloodstock sales, and very often with a groom in attendance to look after welfare. They were rated as passenger vehicles, and would be attached to the first passenger service available. Cattle were carried as a mass commodity in ordinary freight trains, albeit with some basic care for the wellbeing of the animals ensuring a degree of priority.

[Fat Controller]

Would horse boxes go with the cattle vans?

Not sure what your question means. If you're asking if cattle vans and horse boxes were both used on fruit and vegetable traffic, the answer is no; cattle vans were used as they had plenty of ventilation on the sides. Horse-boxes, on the other hand, had closed sides, glazed windows, and only about 50% of the wagon available for loading(the rest being groom's compartment etc).

On a related note, I wonder if the BR-built Siphons were built with the extra sliding vents specifically for this traffic, given that milk-in-churns traffic had largely been replaced by bulk tanks?

[Karhedron]

Horses and cattle were also loaded/unloaded differently. Horseboxes would usually be unloaded at a bay or loading dock if one was available (or even on the main platform if necessary). Cattle were unloaded to and from the pens.