Heljan 14 poor running

[Poppa Bear18]

Hi, firstly thanks to all the help some of you have tried to give concerning the poor running of my Heljan Co-Co locos, in particular whoever it was pointed out issues with Heljans wheels.

 

I believe I have cured the poor running problems with at least one of my Heljan type 47's. Somebody suggested it might be the wheels, so with my trusty wheel puller I removed the four pickup wheels on each bogie. I then did the same on an old Bachmann Type37 I have which unfortunately ended its days by disappearing over the end of the baseboard onto the concrete 4 foot below !. I then put the Bachmann wheels onto the Heljan axles using a homemade wheel gauge to ensure the spacing is correct. After putting it all back together, I then ran the loco in DC (Analogue) mode just to ensure that the pickups etc were working. Thankfully it ran fine - both ways : slow speed as well as fast. I then ran it in DCC mode with a Lenz Silver21+  (non-Sound) decoder fitted. Again it ran superbly. I then fitted my Zimo MX644D (with Sound) decoder again that worked perfectly. Finally I tried it with my ESU Loksound 4.0 Sound decoder which initially wasn't quite so good though a lot better than it had been. I decided it might be time to try a stay - alive so I fitted this using a 4700uf cap and it now seems to work perfectly. 

 

I havent put the body shell on yet so it is possible that the 4700uf cap might be too big, in which case I will have to see if something smaller will work. 

 

In conclusion it does seem that there is something wrong with the (earlier type) of Heljan wheels. Have been in contact with Howes about getting some of the newer ones but unfortunately they will not be back in stock until about November. So i just need to sort through some of my other redundant/broken locos to see what wheels might be useable in my Westerns and Hymeks.!! faulty wheels was the last thing I would have thought possible so thank you guys for helping me solve a very difficult problem and letting me keep what little bit of hair I still have left !!

 

Clive

[JZ]

FWIW, Heljan changed the metal used for their wheels before the 14 was introduced, so changing them would have very little effect. Mine has run sweetly from day one, it was from the original batch.

[cctransuk]

Hi, firstly thanks to all the help some of you have tried to give concerning the poor running of my Heljan Co-Co locos, in particular whoever it was pointed out issues with Heljans wheels.

 

I believe I have cured the poor running problems with at least one of my Heljan type 47's. Somebody suggested it might be the wheels, so with my trusty wheel puller I removed the four pickup wheels on each bogie. I then did the same on an old Bachmann Type37 I have which unfortunately ended its days by disappearing over the end of the baseboard onto the concrete 4 foot below !. I then put the Bachmann wheels onto the Heljan axles using a homemade wheel gauge to ensure the spacing is correct. After putting it all back together, I then ran the loco in DC (Analogue) mode just to ensure that the pickups etc were working. Thankfully it ran fine - both ways : slow speed as well as fast. I then ran it in DCC mode with a Lenz Silver21+  (non-Sound) decoder fitted. Again it ran superbly. I then fitted my Zimo MX644D (with Sound) decoder again that worked perfectly. Finally I tried it with my ESU Loksound 4.0 Sound decoder which initially wasn't quite so good though a lot better than it had been. I decided it might be time to try a stay - alive so I fitted this using a 4700uf cap and it now seems to work perfectly. 

 

I havent put the body shell on yet so it is possible that the 4700uf cap might be too big, in which case I will have to see if something smaller will work. 

 

In conclusion it does seem that there is something wrong with the (earlier type) of Heljan wheels. Have been in contact with Howes about getting some of the newer ones but unfortunately they will not be back in stock until about November. So i just need to sort through some of my other redundant/broken locos to see what wheels might be useable in my Westerns and Hymeks.!! faulty wheels was the last thing I would have thought possible so thank you guys for helping me solve a very difficult problem and letting me keep what little bit of hair I still have left !!

 

Clive

 

If you haven't already done so, try C-clips or split Peco insulated washers to reduce the excess sideplay.

 

Mine shorted on points, due to the back of flanges touching rails of opposing polarity; this stopped completely when I reduced the sideplay on the outer axles.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Poppa Bear18]

If you haven't already done so, try C-clips or split Peco insulated washers to reduce the excess sideplay.

 

Mine shorted on points, due to the back of flanges touching rails of opposing polarity; this stopped completely when I reduced the sideplay on the outer axles.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Thanks John,  somebody else suggested that so might try it later. Just changed the wheels on another Heljan type 47 (from a Bachmann Type 47) and that also now runs very sweetly. No problems at all, so am a bit reluctant to try 'C' clips when I dont think I can improve on what I currently have. Another observation I have made is that there seems to be no problem when running these locos on a DC system ie No decoder. I wonder if the (older) Heljan wheels  have some adverse effect on a DCC signal which of course is esentially AC. Sounds daft I know but initially changing the wheels seemed daft to me. 

[cctransuk]

Thanks John,  somebody else suggested that so might try it later. Just changed the wheels on another Heljan type 47 (from a Bachmann Type 47) and that also now runs very sweetly. No problems at all, so am a bit reluctant to try 'C' clips when I dont think I can improve on what I currently have. Another observation I have made is that there seems to be no problem when running these locos on a DC system ie No decoder. I wonder if the (older) Heljan wheels  have some adverse effect on a DCC signal which of course is esentially AC. Sounds daft I know but initially changing the wheels seemed daft to me. 

 

If we are still talking about the Class 14, I KNOW that a shorting problem on points was cured by fitting C clips between the wheels and frames on the outer axles - that's all that I can tell you.

 

Though I use DC, I understand that a momentary short will produce worse running problems on DCC than on DC.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Poppa Bear18]

FWIW, Heljan changed the metal used for their wheels before the 14 was introduced, so changing them would have very little effect. Mine has run sweetly from day one, it was from the original batch.

 

Thanks JZ for your reply. I understand what you are saying. but do you use a DCC system ? or a DC system I believe this could be something to do with it. My Heljan locos do in fact run better on a DC system as opposed to running on DCC. I also question why changing the wheels (to Bachmann) should have such a dramatic result if there is not some difference between them ? And why did Heljan see fit to change the metallic content (which is what I understand they did) if there was not a problem of some sort ?? Have not yet had the chance to try Heljans newer wheels so cant be sure that  they would be as good a 'cure' as the Bachmann ones I am now using. It seems to me that there is a possible coincidence in Heljan implementing their change (when ?) and the adoption of DCC to a much greater degree in the MR community.

[Poppa Bear18]

If we are still talking about the Class 14, I KNOW that a shorting problem on points was cured by fitting C clips between the wheels and frames on the outer axles - that's all that I can tell you.

 

Though I use DC, I understand that a momentary short will produce worse running problems on DCC than on DC.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

With respect John I am talking about Class 47, I do not have any Class 14. Also my test track only has one point and I eliminated that as a possible problem some time ago. Many thanks for you input.   Clive

[cctransuk]

With respect John I am talking about Class 47, I do not have any Class 14. Also my test track only has one point and I eliminated that as a possible problem some time ago. Many thanks for you input.   Clive

 

Sorry - I was mislead by the thread title !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[tractor_37260]

Hi, firstly thanks to all the help some of you have tried to give concerning the poor running of my Heljan Co-Co locos, in particular whoever it was pointed out issues with Heljans wheels.

 

I believe I have cured the poor running problems with at least one of my Heljan type 47's. Somebody suggested it might be the wheels, so with my trusty wheel puller I removed the four pickup wheels on each bogie. I then did the same on an old Bachmann Type37 I have which unfortunately ended its days by disappearing over the end of the baseboard onto the concrete 4 foot below !. I then put the Bachmann wheels onto the Heljan axles using a homemade wheel gauge to ensure the spacing is correct. After putting it all back together, I then ran the loco in DC (Analogue) mode just to ensure that the pickups etc were working. Thankfully it ran fine - both ways : slow speed as well as fast. I then ran it in DCC mode with a Lenz Silver21+  (non-Sound) decoder fitted. Again it ran superbly. I then fitted my Zimo MX644D (with Sound) decoder again that worked perfectly. Finally I tried it with my ESU Loksound 4.0 Sound decoder which initially wasn't quite so good though a lot better than it had been. I decided it might be time to try a stay - alive so I fitted this using a 4700uf cap and it now seems to work perfectly. 

 

I havent put the body shell on yet so it is possible that the 4700uf cap might be too big, in which case I will have to see if something smaller will work. 

 

In conclusion it does seem that there is something wrong with the (earlier type) of Heljan wheels. Have been in contact with Howes about getting some of the newer ones but unfortunately they will not be back in stock until about November. So i just need to sort through some of my other redundant/broken locos to see what wheels might be useable in my Westerns and Hymeks.!! faulty wheels was the last thing I would have thought possible so thank you guys for helping me solve a very difficult problem and letting me keep what little bit of hair I still have left !!

 

Clive

 

Have you tried using the motor auto-tune feature on the Loksound 4 ?   Set CV54 = 0 then press F1 make sure there's at least 4 to 5ft of clear track in front of it , the loco will shoot off and auto calibrate the motor settings for best slow speed running.

 

As for the earlier type (coated Brass) Heljan wheels, they require to cleaned back to bare brass and then KEPT clean, also the rear of the wheels where the pick-ups rub should be cleaned also, the pick-up tension also adjusted so they make good contact with the back of the wheels.   The later plated Heljan wheels don't attract the same amount of crud etc. so tend to stay cleaner longer....................

 

HTH

[JZ]

Thanks JZ for your reply. I understand what you are saying. but do you use a DCC system ? or a DC system I believe this could be something to do with it. My Heljan locos do in fact run better on a DC system as opposed to running on DCC. I also question why changing the wheels (to Bachmann) should have such a dramatic result if there is not some difference between them ? And why did Heljan see fit to change the metallic content (which is what I understand they did) if there was not a problem of some sort ?? Have not yet had the chance to try Heljans newer wheels so cant be sure that  they would be as good a 'cure' as the Bachmann ones I am now using. It seems to me that there is a possible coincidence in Heljan implementing their change (when ?) and the adoption of DCC to a much greater degree in the MR community.

The old Heljan wheels had a reputation for being 'dirt magnets', that was their problem. If I recall correctly, Falcon was the first with the new wheels(I stand to be corrected) Since I changed mine on the early releases, Brush Type 4, Western and Hymek, they don't need any more cleaning than Bachmann or Hornby loco's. And with DCC, I've been DCC only for 15 years now.

[w124bob]

I don't have a class 14, yet. But do recall the issue around the sideplay, as I have a plentyful supply of Kadee fibre washers used to adjust ride height wondering if they might work. By cutting a small section out then slipping over the outer axles.

[cctransuk]

I don't have a class 14, yet. But do recall the issue around the sideplay, as I have a plentyful supply of Kadee fibre washers used to adjust ride height wondering if they might work. By cutting a small section out then slipping over the outer axles.

 

If the diameter of the hole is 1/8", I don't see why not.

 

Otherwise, get some Peco 1/8" fibre washers - https://peco-uk.com/products/fibre-washers .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Mad McCann]

Interestingly, I find myself with a similar problem on my latest peodiction Hj 14.

It’s fitted with a Zen 8-pin, small enough to fit in the provided bay.

On PLAIN line when power applied, there is a faltering stop/start movement, corresponding with the light going on and off at the same time.

After a second, at the most two the loco stops dead and will only move off with a nudge when high power is applied though it usually stalls again within a short distance. Like in earlier reports, short end First is slightly worse.

As close an inspection as my eyes will permit doesn’t show any glaring issue with the pick up.

It’s an odd one this.

 

D.

[GeraldH]

I don't have a class 14, yet. But do recall the issue around the sideplay, as I have a plentyful supply of Kadee fibre washers used to adjust ride height wondering if they might work. By cutting a small section out then slipping over the outer axles.

 

Another option is to use a piece of tube or an old pen refill as in post #578 on the other Class 14 thread.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3482-Heljan-class-14s-for-hattons/page-24

[On the block Allan]

The question of poor running Heljan class 14 was raised by MICHAELP in the DCC Help and Questions section under the title of Heljan CLASS 14 JERKY RUNNING, I added my input on 01/10/17 as #11, try to find it and see if it helps.

 

Allan.

[Phil Bullock]

The Heljan Class 14s can be sorted,,,,

 

 

 

Phil