Ian Smith Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Following on from the success of my first venture in 3D printing, I am now ready for my next adventure. The drawings have been prepared for a GWR Outside Framed Cattle Wagon to diagram W2 in 2mmFS, and has been succesfull uploaded to Shapeways. This time I've bundled the 3 wagons that I want nto a single file to reduce costs of printing in FUD - they apply a 5 euro surcharge to each file printed in FUD so I could have saved 10 euros on my previous order by putting the 3 vans into a single file - DOH! A SketchUp screenshot below shows the Cattle Wagons. This time I have also included Solebars and Headstocks, and I have also put some Grease and Oil Axleboxes and springs on some little sprues too. The other wagon I've drawn up is a GWR Outside Framed Brake Van, screen shots of both end of this are below, but I need to make a few minor alterations before I upload this one (I will also probably put some springs and axleboxes in this file too, but I have to draw up the springs first as they are different to the ones included in the Cattle Wagon.) All being well I will be in a position to place my Shapeways order in the next week or two. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzler Fan Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Ian : Have you had any of this work back from Shapeways yet? I would be interested in costs etc. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 Ian : Have you had any of this work back from Shapeways yet? I would be interested in costs etc. Regards I have not yet placed the order. I have decided to build up and finish one of the Outside Framed Vans that I had previously had printed up to ensure that when painted that the gaps between the planking and the bolt detail will still be visible. Hopefully, I will get a chance to complete the Van over the bank holiday weekend (just need to cut a roof out of nickel silver sheet and fix, and then paint the little chap up). If the detail is still visible then I will go ahead an order some of the wagons described here, if the detail gets lost then I think a rework will be in order. I will update this thread with progress soon. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted July 14, 2012 Author Share Posted July 14, 2012 I have now placed the order with Shapeways for 2 of the GWR W2 Medium Cattle Wagons, I have also bundled up 2 GWR diag W1/5 Large Cattle Wagons, 2 GWR diag W3 Cattle Wagons and 1 Outside Framed Brake Van in the same file. The total cost (including postage) is about £37 which works out at just over a fiver per wagon. Hopefully the delivery should be here by the 23rd. I will update this thread after that with details of how they all turned out. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 Order from Shapeways finally arrived. The images below show the full order (AA16 Brake Van, W2 Outside Framed Cattle Wagon, 2x W1 Cattle Wagons, and 3x W3 Cattle Wagons (cocked up creation of STL file here, should have been 2x W2 and 2x W3 ) Additional images show close ups of the AA16 and W2 wagons (the object of this thread). I will put more detailed description in my blog at some point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Looking forward to seeing some paint on these. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzler Fan Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Ian, What are you using for adhesive? Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 Ian, What are you using for adhesive? Noel Noel, The wagons come as they are shown in the photos (assuming you thought they were in component form). If you didn't, the previous vans I had produced have had the W-Irons, Roofs, etc attached with Super Glue (although the plastic roof of one and the solebars were attached with Humbrol Liquid Poly, but I doubled up with Super Glue just to make sure!) Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ngram Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I would be very interested in a photo of the models when you have a bit of primer on them. Our experience of Shapeways was that they just couldn't get the quality of finish we wanted on our externally framed GNSR kit and that this really showed up once a spray of primer went on the models. We eventually went to CWR. But if they have managed it that would be great! Would you be agreeable to allowing the rest of us to purchase your models either from you or direct from Shapeways? Would you be willing to change the scale and do a 3.5mm CAD version as well? From our own experience its childs play to do a different scale version. I'm a British H0 modeller and would be more than keen to get some small cattle wagons in that scale. Depending on the price I would happily buy a a file full of them. For us modellers in an unusual scale the possibility of "piggybacking" onto CAD generated 3D printed models is, potentially, a godsend, giving us the opportiunity to get wagons etc we would otherwise be unable to. How about it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 I would be very interested in a photo of the models when you have a bit of primer on them. Our experience of Shapeways was that they just couldn't get the quality of finish we wanted on our externally framed GNSR kit and that this really showed up once a spray of primer went on the models. We eventually went to CWR. But if they have managed it that would be great! Would you be agreeable to allowing the rest of us to purchase your models either from you or direct from Shapeways? Would you be willing to change the scale and do a 3.5mm CAD version as well? From our own experience its childs play to do a different scale version. I'm a British H0 modeller and would be more than keen to get some small cattle wagons in that scale. Depending on the price I would happily buy a a file full of them. For us modellers in an unusual scale the possibility of "piggybacking" onto CAD generated 3D printed models is, potentially, a godsend, giving us the opportiunity to get wagons etc we would otherwise be unable to. How about it? I need to get a can of primer in the next couple of days or so so that I can really see the quality properly. My initial view is that I could not have made these models from scratch very easily, especially the drainage slots in the sides and ends, etc. The texture on the sides and ends does look a bit rough in places (probably not too much of a problem on a planked wagon with framing/strapping across it, but on something like a coach would be completely unacceptable). My earlier attempt was a GWR Outside Framed Van in 2mmFS, images of which can be seen in my gallery http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/40977-gwr-of-van-brake-side-3d-printing/. For me, the finish is acceptable (although on one of the 3 wagons one of the sides was particularly rough - I have decided to use that one as a grounded body in the good yard). I have not heard of CWR, are they another 3d printing firm? Do you have any examples of the sort of quality they can produce? It was never my intention to market these models, although I have no qualms making them publicly available from Shapeways. I would however be reluctant to make my individual models that are currently uploaded available simply because I think it's a bit of a cheek to charge 5 euros per STL file extra for FUD. If people are interested in any of my models, then I think the best thing wouls be for me to produce STL files with multiple models in so that the 5 euro surcharge is only applied once - this is what I did for myself, all of the models and spring axleboxes shown on the mousemat in the photograph above were in a single (large) STL file which cost £37.50 all in! As for re-sizing the models to a larger scale, I don't know how do-able that is, in theory just stretch in all dimensions? The problem might be cost though as everything will become thicker hence increasing the volume of the material needed to make the model. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ngram Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Well I'd certainly like to see one after you have primed it as its only then you can see how well the planking and strapping have come out. CWR can be found here: http://www.chrisjward.co.uk/index.html He mainly does NG locos but was very amenable to doing our flatpack wagon body kit in both H0 and 00. As I say we went to him after a long struggle at Shapeways but they just couldn't get the detail on all four faces of the model - you seem to have had the same problem - so we made it a flatpack but still the quality varied tremendously from model to model. There's a photo of our kits on this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56296-gnsr-4mm-kits-any-available/ from post 16 onwards. This is the kit from CWR with primer, no tidying up or sanding down done at all - just to show people what we got. I'm no tecchie but our designer used a program called Rhino which worked in full size dimensions and was able to scale the kit up to 00 and even 0 without any bother though he said slimming down to N might be a problem because the walls might become thinner than the printer could cope with. But going the opposite direction shouldnt be a problem - except perhaps moneywise. I'm sure that if you were to make your models available in any scale they weren't already available in, you would find people looking for the model easily enough. Certainly if there was an H0 version of a 10' wheelbase 16' long cattle wagon I would buy a print run's worth of them. Drop me an email if this might be a goer. For myself I think that 3D printing will in future allow us to make models where the demand is likely to be low and in a range of scales but I have to admit I think the technology has still to get to a point where it can make an acceptable product consistently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 The first two wagons from the set that I had printed (a GWR W1 Large Cattle Wagon and a GWR W2 Medium Cattle Wagon) have been pretty much completed (the W1 was detailed in my blog http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1009/entry-10173-2mmfs-gwr-w1-cattle-wagon-3d-printed/). Both wagons were completed with parts available from the 2mm Scale Association stores. Before painting: Underside of the wagons showing the under-gear from association parts, the W Irons are the RCH ones, and once folded up fit snuggly in the recesses I had incorporated in the rear of the solebars to facilitate accurate fitting. The completed pair (although the W2 needs lettering), the W1 has "cast plates" printed on photo sticker paper (which is self adhesive). The far end of the W2 is still quite rough as can be seen in the second photo below. I might try scraping the planking on this end to I think that this image shows the limitations of the 3D printing process as it is at the moment, whilst both sides and one end look OK to my eyes, the other end is disappointing to say the least, and obviously was printed in the same plane as the opposite end so it's not even explainable because it was printed in the x, y or z plane. The reality for me is that I am non the less pretty happy with the result as I can (in this instance) couple that end against the other wagon and it will be pretty well hidden (I intend permanently coupling many of my wagons in pairs with 3 links to minimise the number of DG's I'll need). I have now made the W1 and W2 wagons available from Shapeways (in pairs to minimise the FUD surcharge to prospective buyers). Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJones Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 The W1 is looking very well indeed! The printed effect on the door of the W2 is also quite authentic looking, but yes the end is a bit nasty. Few minutes of scraping would soon cure it though, just remember to clear the plank gaps before painting again or they'll end up flush! Which Association parts are required to complete? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJones Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Ian I think your W1 upload shows some over zealous weathering with regard to rotten planks... Will definitely be getting a few of these down the line though, good work sir! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted September 12, 2012 Author Share Posted September 12, 2012 Ian I think your W1 upload shows some over zealous weathering with regard to rotten planks... Will definitely be getting a few of these down the line though, good work sir! Richard, I think that the rendering of the STL file by what ever Shapeways uses to display an image is at fault - the wagons really haven't got planking missing :-) The W1 is looking very well indeed! The printed effect on the door of the W2 is also quite authentic looking, but yes the end is a bit nasty. Few minutes of scraping would soon cure it though, just remember to clear the plank gaps before painting again or they'll end up flush! Which Association parts are required to complete? Wheels : 2-010 6mm 8 Spoke Wagon Wheels Buffers : 2-072 2.1mm Round Base Wagon Buffers W-Irons : 2-312 RCH type W-irons etch for 12.25mm axles (and Top hat bearings) Springs and Axleboxes : 2-311 GWR DC springs and axleboxes (or alternative castings) Brake Gear : 11'6" (or 11'0") for the W1, or 9'0" for the W2 On my models, I used the FUD springs and axleboxes that I had printed up, although I think the axleboxes need to be re-drawn slightly bigger. For the Brake Gear I used some old Colin Waite etched items that I had in my "gloat box". Some fine wire will also be required for the bars in the wagon side openings - in the re-drawn models that are now available from Shapeways I have incorporated slots across the backs of the door frames and holes in the ends to accomodate 0.2 or 0.3mm wire (my bars butt up to the ends so had to be accurately filed to length, the holes minimise that and provide a bit of an anchorage at the wire end). The roofs were 0.010" plasticard with 0.005" strips on the W1 - nickel sheet could also be used or perhaps the Association etched roofs - although I have no experience of those. Hope this helps, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon br blue Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I think that the rendering of the STL file by what ever Shapeways uses to display an image is at fault - the wagons really haven't got planking missing :-) Has that model been printed? I've had similar missing parts on models that I have uploaded and I think it is the shapeways software has removed part of the model. The model above had had some bits removed in the shapeways render but it is also cheaper in price than the same model that was uploaded correctly so I guess the parts will be missing. I found the problem was sometimes inverted normals and sometimes the parts removed were small parts not joined to the larger body of the model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 Simon, Originally, I had an assortment of wagons all bundled in a single STL file printed for my own use. To make the wagons I have completed from that "bundle" available to others I have built new STL files containing pairs of the same wagon, it is one of those pairs that seems to have a part missing in just one of the pair (obviously the wagon was just copied and pasted to duplicate it so should be identical). I have just checked the Shapeways image of the "bundle" that I had printed up and can see a missing part on that image too (although the wagons themselves printed OK). I can only assume that is the Browser rendering of the image that is at fault. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Finally completed the GWR W2 Medium Cattle Wagon. To complete the 3D Print parts from the 2mm Scale Association shop were used - 2-072 Buffers 2-312 RCH W-Irons 2-041 Brass Top Hat Bearings 2-010 8 Spoke Wheels Colin Waite Brake Gear (can't remember the part no. as they've been in my parts box for over 20 years) A roof of plasticard Door bangers filed and bent to shape from 0.010" nickel with a narrow enough shank filed on the end to fit through a 0.3mm hole in the solebars Grease Axleboxes and Springs are my own design printed in FUD. The completed wagon was painted in my own interpretation of GWR Red, and lettered with Fox Transfers - unfortunately, they do not do lettering for Cattle Wagons on their GWR sheet (no "LARGE", MEDIUM" or "SMALL"), so the wording above the number on teh wagon end was idicated with a few brush strokes in off white. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJones Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Looks Excellent Ian, can't wait to see the whole rake! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzler Fan Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Ian, What era are you modelling for the Red livery: was it still around in 1905? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 My understanding is that there would probably have been quite a few Red liveried wagons around in 1905/6 - Goods stock probably wouldn't have visited the paint shops too often (although I'm not sure how long a between visits to the shops a wagon could be running around, I assume a good many years). I'm sure that I have read a quote from somewhere that the GWR wagons at the start of the Great War were in Red and Grey liveries implying that there would be a fair few of each livery around on the system. The problem with the Red livery is knowing when the change occurred, and unfortunately opinion seems to vary - the only (apparent) certainty is that stock with the large 25" "GW" (1904) would have been Grey, using that as my guide I have decided that any wagon that I letter with the small (5") "G.W.R" will be Red, and make my livery change to Grey with the advent of the cast plates, possibly wrong but in reality can anyone challenge it with evidence? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Finally finished the last of my original foray into 3D printing. This time the subject is a GWR Outside Framed Van, finished with Colin Waite W-Irons and Brake Gear, Buffers and Wheels from the 2mmSA. The Grease Axleboxes and Springs are my own design 3D printed in FUD, and a 0.010" plasticard roof completed the assembly. The model was finished in GWR Grey livery with the 25" lettering of the 1904 period courtesy of Fox Transfers. Just couplings to add. Non-Brake Side Brake Side Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 A few weeks ago I completed the Outside Framed Brake Van. The W Irons are the RCH ones from the 2mm Association which fit into recesses designed in the backs of the solebars. Buffers and wheels are from the same source. The brake gear was fretted out of 2 laminations of 0.010" nickel sheet. The step boards are fabricated from 0.006" nickel silver sheet soldered to 0.3mm brass wire which in turn is fed into holes designed in the print and secured with super glue (the holes had to be opened up with a drill as the supporting wax had filled most of them. The handrails are 0.2mm nickel silver rod mounted in knobs of twisted wire (single strand from multistrand wireformed into a loop held in the pin chuck which is then twizzled around a piece of handrail wire until the twisted shank breaks off). The J hangers / Springs and Grease Axleboxes are also 3d printed. The Brake Standard from the original print did not survive the cleaning process so had to be replaced with a turned item with a bit of bent 0.2mm wire soldered to theh top. The roof is 0.006" nickel sheet secured with super glue, and the stove pipe chimney is another little turning. Lettering is a mix of Fox Transfers for the number and G.W.R with some old Woodhead ones used for the home branding of "Exeter". In the photos it can be seen that I tried to dull down the lettering with a light wash of black which under flash photography looks bl**dy awful (it looks a lot better in natural light) so since the pictures were taken I've addressed that by my usual method of dry brushing body colour over them so they look tons better now!! (The 2 dumb buffered coal wagons are scratch built). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill-lobb Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Can I ask a question or three, please? I am considering a foray into 3D printing, and thought I might be lazy and try to pick your brains. How thin can you make the sides on the printed wagons? What size, depth & shape to you make the grooves to represent the planks? What size to you make the bolt heads? Thanks, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill-lobb Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 (The 2 dumb buffered coal wagons are scratch built). I like the internal details on the open wagons. That is one area where the otherwise excellent Mathieson wagons fall down, due to the limitations of moulding plastic bodies. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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