Help in explaining signals and use please.

[Guest Moria]

Greetings all.

 

I'm trying to set up the signalling diagram on the preserved area of my layout to work out what I need and am trying to do it so I can present my solution and ask for comments rather than just a "please signal my station for me" thread, and to see if i have my understanding right about what to use and what signals mean what, so have been looking at lots of pics to try and interpret the movements allowed by each signal.

 

I thought I was doing quite well until I found this pic and need some help with it please. I also apologise in advance for any wrong terminology.

 

I have a link to the pic.. not sure if I can repost it here as it's not my pic, but here we go as a link from the Gloucestershire Warwick Railway S&E dept....

 

http://www.gwsr.com/...ator signal.jpg

 

Now, let me try to interpret and see if I am close and then ask my question.

 

Starting nearest to camera..

 

2 starter signals, each with a ground signal to allow shunting moves, or release for run rounds, etc with the one to the right being wrong side placed with a central pivot and short arm for clearance purposes suggesting that the right hand loop line is signalled for bi-directional running.

 

Next, facing away from camera, a signal with a route indicator board, which I assume can read for either loop

 

Next, also facing away, a junction bracket, wrong side placed, which I assume is for either loop as well. (Also appears that down by ground level, there may be something that looks like a baby semaphore arm, but could be something completely different also facing away from camera)

 

In the distance another starter, placed high for visibility which I also assume is the entrance to the next section and would also act as a stop signal where traffic has passed the ground discs for run round and to prevent them going any further.

 

But the question is.. why both a junction bracket AND a signal with route indicator board, both of which I assume are doing similar jobs?

 

I am also not seeing any ground signals for coming back into the loops towards the camera if something is running round and has been released into the area from the ground signals facing the camera. Is that the purpose of the signal with route indicator?

 

I accept, I don't have a track plan to see if there's anything else visible, or even know if this is correctly signalled, or just a display of different signal types, but I DO know that there's people on this forum that know more than I will ever know about all this.

 

Thanks so much for looking and for any help.

 

EDIT.. interestingly, the two home nearest the camera appear to show the same ridges round the post as the new Dapol working signals... is this an example of why those could stay and not be trimmed?

 

Regards

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

Hmm, interesting, and possibly a tad over-signalled?

 

The two stop signals facing camera no doubt control exit from each of their respective loops - bi-directional signalling of loops seems quite a habit on preserved lines - usually for operational reasons.

The ground disc shunting signal co-located with them are a bit of a puzzle although it looks as if there might be a siding going off to the right by the bracket signal - there is certainly a ground frame there; the logical reason for the discs would be to signal moves to that siding.

Still heading in the same direction and visible above the lineside shrubbery is another stop signal which is almost certainly the Advanced Starter - doing the job this way means only one signal need be released by the token circuit and - as you've identified - it can be a limiting signal for shunting/run round moves (but they would normally be signalled using the running signals, not the discs).

 

Coming the other way I'm as much in the dark as you! We appear to have both a bracket signal and a signal with a route indicator serving exactly the same purpose. However the signal with the route indicator has a short arm which suggests to me that it might be something to do with the siding - although it appears to be in the wrong place for that! But the state of the track and various materials lying around, plus some extremely slack signal wires on the right of the pic, all suggest to me that this picture was taken during layout/signalling alterations prior to work being completed and outside the train operating season.

 

The odd bit is that neither of the signals reading towards the viewpoint has any trace of subsidiary arms which suggests to me that run-round movents don't take place via this end of the (what appears to be a ) loop.

 

Hope that helps a bit Graham but some aspects (sorry) of the picture do - at first glance - leave me as puzzled as you.

[beast66606]

I might be losing something in the compression (and not knowing the track plan), but I'm not convinced for the need for the bracket AND the signal with the route indicator - as you are also wondering.

 

The ground signals facing us are presumably worked from the ground frame visible in the distance, if this works the connection in the distance, then that explains why there are no signals for coming towards us, it will be hand signalled from the person working the frame.

 

The "baby semaphore" is not, so don't worry about that !

 

hth - perhaps someone with a track plan could post it ? or maybe someone knows a bit more about this arrangement ?

 

 

Posted with SationMasters !

[Guest stuartp]

I can't tell for certain but there's something across the back of the black stripes on the bracket - strapping holding on a couple of wooden 'Xs' by any chance ? (which are either quite small or lost in the compression and background clutter ?).

 

In which case the rather shiny-looking bracket is a not-yet-commissioned replacement for the rustier-looking indicator.

 

Of course I could just need new glasses.

[beast66606]

I can't tell for certain but there's something across the back of the black stripes on the bracket - strapping holding on a couple of wooden 'Xs' by any chance ?

 

 

I've zoomed in and there does indeed appear to be Xs on the signal, which explains the confusion, I suspect the route indicator and the ground frame are being replaced by the signals shown.

 

[The Stationmaster]

I can't tell for certain but there's something across the back of the black stripes on the bracket - strapping holding on a couple of wooden 'Xs' by any chance ? (which are either quite small or lost in the compression and background clutter ?).

 

In which case the rather shiny-looking bracket is a not-yet-commissioned replacement for the rustier-looking indicator.

 

Of course I could just need new glasses.

You could well be right (after changing to my old glasses).

[Guest Moria]

Thanks all.. am glad I am not going completely insane here

 

Stuart, now you mention it, I can see those too, or something anyway.. geez, I think it's me that needs new glasses.

 

One snippit from the posts above.. so a run round can be done with the main signals on the line and not need seperate ground signals?.. that was a subtlety that had not occured to me.. I was getting all worried about calling on arms etc, but with the above info and Stationmasters tome on signals in this post then I think for what I need, I can escape without those

 

Regards

 

Graham

[Guest stuartp]

Strewth ! Have I just beaten Beast and SM to a signalling answer ? I think I need a lie down ! ;-)

[The Stationmaster]

Strewth ! Have I just beaten Beast and SM to a signalling answer ? I think I need a lie down ! ;-)

Hang on Stuart - I did explain my suspicions that alterations were in hand - so it's just a sit-down and not a lie-down that you need (whereas I need another eye test).

[Guest stuartp]

I beg your pardon, I missed that. New glasses required after all then.

[PLD]

As suggested by Mike & Stuart, it is a photo part way through alterations. The location is Toddington North, and the S&T department blog on the railway's website gives the full story (August 2009 entry onwards) including 'before and after' photos (though inconsiderate locos keep getting in the way of the signals...)

http://www.gwsr.com/...-telegraph.aspx

[Blandford1969]

The provison of ground signals does seam over the top when the starters can be used to run round. If there were not enough space between there and the advance starter which there is there could have been a shunt ahead signal on the starter (as was at Ironbridge)

 

I would agree that without Calling On subsiduaries it does not look like run rounds are normally done at this end.

[The Stationmaster]

The provison of ground signals does seam over the top when the starters can be used to run round. If there were not enough space between there and the advance starter which there is there could have been a shunt ahead signal on the starter (as was at Ironbridge)

 

I would agree that without Calling On subsiduaries it does not look like run rounds are normally done at this end.

I presume the ground discs are there to read to the siding so not all that odd but the one at the foot of the bracket coming the other way does seem distinctly odd - I suspect they lacked sufficient parts to put on Calling On arms as they do have them at the other end of the layout (which makes it doubly surprising that they appear to have got away with two different sorts of signalling at opposite ends of the one station.

 

Overall their signal engineering practice seems to be a peculiar mixture of styles and terminology but as long as its consistent within their Railway there's nothing wrong with that - provided they take appropriate steps to deal properly with visiting train crews (in particular).

[phil-b259]

The provison of ground signals does seam over the top when the starters can be used to run round. If there were not enough space between there and the advance starter which there is there could have been a shunt ahead signal on the starter (as was at Ironbridge)

 

I would agree that without Calling On subsiduaries it does not look like run rounds are normally done at this end.

 

As are run rounds at the Bluebell and many other heritage railways. Of course in the grand scheme of things when the GWSR get to Broadway, locos will, in the main not be running round at Toddington anyway.

[figworthy]

 

hth - perhaps someone with a track plan could post it ? or maybe someone knows a bit more about this arrangement ?

 

 

Posted with SationMasters !

 

I've not been there for a while, but this looks like the north end of Toddington Station (just past the road bridge), with the station behind the camera. The two tracks behind the camera are the platform roads (and so would be bi-directional). Just beyond the single signal viewed from behind in another turnout into a siding (on the right as we see it) that runs parallel to the running track north to Leverton.

 

 

Adrian

[Merfyn Jones]

I've not been there for a while, but this looks like the north end of Toddington Station (just past the road bridge), with the station behind the camera. The two tracks behind the camera are the platform roads (and so would be bi-directional). Just beyond the single signal viewed from behind in another turnout into a siding (on the right as we see it) that runs parallel to the running track north to Leverton.

 

 

Adrian

 

At present , while the line South of Toddington is severed by the landslip, the service from Toddington is a DMU shuttle. I tried it last month, goes South and North of the station. So at present there are no normal terminating trains to run round. A good time to be doing the alterations from terminus to passing loop.

The one with the indicator now gone.

 

 

10 May 2012

[Blandford1969]

I presume the ground discs are there to read to the siding so not all that odd but the one at the foot of the bracket coming the other way does seem distinctly odd - I suspect they lacked sufficient parts to put on Calling On arms as they do have them at the other end of the layout (which makes it doubly surprising that they appear to have got away with two different sorts of signalling at opposite ends of the one station.

 

Overall their signal engineering practice seems to be a peculiar mixture of styles and terminology but as long as its consistent within their Railway there's nothing wrong with that - provided they take appropriate steps to deal properly with visiting train crews (in particular).

 

Ooops I missed that siding, yes I agree with you.