Stay/Keep Alive, USP etc

[Taigatrommel]

Having been extremely disappointed with DCC Concepts Stay Alive, I was wondering what other people have experienced. Such is the simplicity of installation that I am confident I have done nothing wrong in either of the models I've installed these in (Roco BR 364 and 798), but these models still don't like plastic frog pointwork. The 364 (0-6-0 shunter) has one Stay Alive module, the 798 (4 wheel railbus) has two. As such, I was wondering about what the other options for similar electronic flywheels are like in their performance.

 

Zimo is the next most cost effective, with a simple DIY circuit or even direct wiring of capacitors on their decoders. I've never knowingly seen theirs demonstrated though, so it's a big unknown to me as to whether it will help with my issues. Some guidance I've seen online suggests using multiple capacitors- I'm trying to cram it into an 0-6-0 shunter.

 

Lenz USP (Gold with a Power 1) is the most expensive, but demonstrations make it seem like borderline wizardry! Very impressive, but the cost is nearly as much as the model itself.

 

Somwhere in the middle TCS seem to sit. I've never been as impressed with their decoders as with those from Zimo and Lenz, but a decoder with the Keep Alive is just over 20% cheaper than a Lenz Gold with a Power 1. Their online demonstration video suggests that it would certainly cope with the momentary lost contact from a dead frog double slip.

 

So really, it's Zimo that's the great unknown for me (save for general excellent performance). Luckily it's only this couple of models that really need the energy store to cope with Bad Horn's track. If anyone can give me an impression of how well they perform in comparison to the others, I'd be very grateful. I can probably fit two 680uF 35v caps in the shunter, if I'm unlucky possibly only two 470uF.

 

Thanks

[Nigelcliffe]

You're expecting too much from a small capacitor storage.

 

 

You can increase the storage (farads per unit volume) slightly by dropping the voltage rating of the capacitors. 35V rated are "belt, braces and iron cladding" given that maximum track voltage from even a garden DCC system is substantially less. 25V rated should cover any DCC system. 16V rated are also fine if you are confident of the track voltage from your DCC system being below 17V (allowing for the rectifying diodes in the decoder dropping the volts slightly). So, 16V is OK for most DCC systems.

 

 

With respect to Zimo, 1400uF will stop microscopic stuttering on track, its enough to turn the wheels for a tiny fraction of a second. It makes a substantial difference to fine running, a 4-wheeled loco is a lot smoother running. BUT it won't sail your loco over a dead section of track. 4700uF (which is big) will turn wheels on a tiny O-scale loco for a fraction of a wheel revolution.

 

 

In contrast a Lenz Power-1 is good for about 8 inches of running, but works by having a massive capacitor in the module (uses "gold caps" or similar high farad storage units, plus step-up voltage regulator, etc.). I find Lenz chips give inferior control when compared to Zimo.

 

 

I've not tried the TCS units, nor taken one apart. From photos and dimensions, they are a fair size and look like a shrink wrap around half a dozen cylindrical capacitors. Without dismantling, its hard to determine the storage. They are rated at 16v, which suggests that TCS are looking at similar capacitors to those I used.

 

 

 

As Scottie said, though probably about dilithuim crystals rather than electrolytic capacitors, "ye cannie change the laws of physics".

 

 

- Nigel

[pauliebanger]

Hi Rich,

 

Zimo decribes their 'external power supply' as an 'electronic flywheel'.

 

On some Zimo models you will need a small, well documented, circuit to prevent in-rush current problems, but many have the cicuit built -in. This makes it very convenient to connect capacitors directly, and I've done many such installations.

 

However, the ones you are proposing to use will give only a fraction of a second running power. They will improve slow running and keep sound alive on dirty track, but there's not enough stored energy to carry the loco over a dead frog at speed step 1.

 

You need Gold Caps to get the storage necessary in the space you have,and they need to be connected in series to reach the correct voltage.

 

Paul

[beeman]

I find it extremely SAD that stay alive grumbles keep coming up.Perhaps track faults are the actual cause. The ubiquitous 12v bulb with stiff wire soldered on might answer many problems.Which I frequently use to check track.backed up by a multimeter I have some 40+ 36.553/4 chipped locos all of which have had as many wheels possible 'connected' to the track by additional pickups.Why members capable of fitting stay alive units do not opt for this, I can not understand, notwithstanding the cost to purchase. The reason being that Iget almost NO bad connections, thus causing decoders to 're start'. this is on a quite involved roundy with some 60 turnouts, many locos 'standing' for a number of weeks on the V.S.U. and very very rarely do'nt move when 'requested', also many of my out of sight turnouts are the old type with diecast blades. also finding if coach wheels are all connected for lighting, similar applies, I appreciate the fewer wheels available it is not so easy, an 0-4-0, which I do not have being worst case. If a non sound decoder does not 'malfunction/stutter then neither will one with sound .However It would seem some have more money than sense., or throw money away to resolve problems perhaps existing elsewhere.Beeman.

[Dagworth]

Sorry Beeman but that is a very condescending reply that is completely uncalled for. The OP has made it quite clear that the problem locos are an 0-6-0 and a 4 wheel railbus that struggle with a plastic frog. If you have some way of magically making the loco wheelbase longer or of making a plastic frog conduct then maybe your input would be valued, as it is you just come across as rude and arrogant. Where did questions of sound decoders stuttering come into it?

 

Andi

[Taigatrommel]

You're expecting too much from a small capacitor storage.

 

 

I'm not really expecting anything (at least as far as Zimo goes), hence asking for others experiences. The benchmark "gold standard" at this point for me is Lenz Power 1/Gold, which is also the most expensive. Compared to that, I guess anything will disappoint, but the DCC Concepts unit offers no noticable difference to the models' performance prior to the fitment of their decoders with the Stay Alive. In fact, I'd say the poorer running compared to Zimo or Lenz (my normal first choice decoders) make matters worse.

 

I'll be honest, the presumption of my ignorance is slightly annoying, having been a DCC user for over 10 years. Two of the products I have mentioned (TCS and Lenz) offer and demonstrate extremely impressive performance

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f2hmeNNCOs

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ghOk4T2Sew

 

One I have direct experience of and the other is the one I particularly ask about.

 

I'm not sure how many extra pickups to add when every wheel already has pickups, this is where I'm lucky with continental models. Neither model has any traction tires. However, I illustrate the worst case scenario below:

 

 

Three wheels out of four hitting the frogs simultaneously is going to need some sort of assistance if speeds are to be kept realistic! Luckily this one doesn't traverse the double slip normally, however the shunter can have half its wheels on plastic at a given moment as well and this does regularly cross the slip. Unfortunately the shunter has far less space available inside than the railbus for capacitors.

 

I know the track is less than ideal. I built this as a fill in project using materials lying around, but as I have an exhibition commitment I'm striving to achieve the best running I can without rebuilding the layout.

 

Nigel, the info on Zimo is very useful. It would probably be fine for the railbus in its normal service, just something to smooth things out a little. The shunter probably needs something a little more to really give reliable performance.

[Nigelcliffe]

Rich,

 

more pickups are possible with metal skids under models. It can be done without people noticing; the J52 shunter which works Mrs Wilberforce' yard on the massive 2mm scale layout Copenhagen Fields has a pair of skids. They help, with care in the positioning you might be able to ensure a couple more contact points over the dead-frogs, but you can't work miracles over dead-frogs !

The other option for an 0-6-0 shunter would be a match-wagon (shunters truck) which is fitted with pickups wired back to the loco. I'd build such a wagon with split-frame pickup to remove any risk of wheel drag.

 

 

I have a railbus similar to the one shown. Mine is 4mm scale from an Airfix kit, with added chassis, interior, etc.. I use a Lenz Gold plus Power-1 in the centre (behind the doors/luggage area on the Park-Royal railbus. . It is a very reliable runner with that arrangement, though bottom speed is a little higher than I'd like (Lenz decoder not as tunable as a Zimo). I can fix that by building a different gearbox with a higher ratio. The Lenz Gold is also used for it's auto-shuttle capabilities, so the railbus can run the "lunch break" service on the branchline whilst the operators have a rest !

 

Back at Zimo, 16v capacitors from my local electronics supplier will give you double uF for the same volume of space when compared to 35v rated. I've no experience of using Gold-caps on Zimo, but the more recent Zimo manuals gives a few clues. Trouble is that a stack of Gold-caps soon takes up quite a lot of space - I ought to try a set in my 7mm "test shed" (a Simplex "shed on wheels" from an Impetus kit, which has a massive hollow square space for trying out things).

 

 

 

- Nigel

[Kenton]

I find it extremely SAD that stay alive grumbles keep coming up.Perhaps track faults are the actual cause.

 

I support your comment, Beeman. I am at a total loss as why anyone should be considering this somewhat costly and seemingly dubious technology. The fault has everything to do with track. Why, oh why is anyone still using insulfrogs at all. Cure the track problem and then stick pickups on every wheel and running will be improved, no gizmos. The power and signal have every chance to get through to the decoder without blips or breaks deliberately put in their way. Oh, and the same advice applies to DC when flywheels are suggested.

[Suzie]

I think that the quickest and cheapest remedy will be a bit of conductive paint on two of those three frogs.

 

The TCS video would suggest that their solution is similar to Lenz in stay alive performance.

 

Zimo stay alive performance will be similar to DCC Concepts, although the Zimo decoder performance will be better.

[RedgateModels]

Can only speak from experience and I'll let others to their own opinions and prejudices.

 

I have fitted my home grown StayAlive packs to Lenz Standard decoders (both original and plus variants) and they do work, remarkably well. Both the austerity tanks on Summat Colliery have had them in and #49 did not stall once all weekend at Wigan. Harry now has a Zimo MX648 sound chip with an identical StayAlive attached, again, once he was working on the Sunday never stopped once. Both locos have only 1000uF capacitors.

 

I DCC fitted a kit built chassis for someone, a very light 4-6-2 with a small mashima that would not run at all on my test track without the body on and was very hesitant even then. I fitted a 4700uF cap and it ran on speed step 1 over insulfrog points without stalling.

 

As the Lenz Standard+ is my decoder of choice, only using other decoders when space or sound is a factor I am happy with the configuration I have arrived at.

[beast66606]

I've used the Lenz USP, a few years ago I demoed it at Warley, fitted to an 08, running onto, stopping, reversing and running off insulated tape, very impressive but expensive.

 

I tend to agree with the sentiments "Get the track right" - although it's obviously 20/20 vision after the event.

Never use dead frogs, it's not impossible to replace turnouts with care and plenty of time (anything to do with track is NOT quick despite those who claim to lay everything quick - lay in haste, derail at leisure).

 

I would be investigating fitting (replacing) live frog turnouts first, only using power saving modules as a last chance saloon.

[Taigatrommel]

more pickups are possible with metal skids under models. It can be done without people noticing; the J52 shunter which works Mrs Wilberforce' yard on the massive 2mm scale layout Copenhagen Fields has a pair of skids.

. That's a good idea. In fact, Fleischmann have exactly this arrangement on their similar BR 796 railbus, fitted in the brake skids at the vehicle's midpoint.

 

blah blah blah track blah blah wibble froth soapbox

I've already said I don't want to rebuild the layout, and yet invisible ink strikes. Fitting two traction units with a nice little module is a lot quicker. I could waste my time explaining why not, but there's no need as Nigel, Paulie and Suzie have given good answers to the question I asked. Thank you all, it is very much appreciated.

[beast66606]

I've already said I don't want to rebuild the layout, and yet invisible ink strikes.

 

Replacing a point or two is not rebuilding the layout.

 

It's not invisible ink, its the best advice, you are trying to curing the symptoms not the illness, bit like taking paracetamol for a brain tumour - it's your choice.

 

If you don't want advice then don't ask for it, your "blah blah" comment is a puerile response to genuine advice, no wonder I frequently feel "Why do I bother?"

[Kenton]

I've already said I don't want to rebuild the layout

 

Your choice. But this is an open forum and I'm concerned that others think "oh, well, why bother to get the track correct, and why bother with clean and numerous pickups, when I can always throw money at the problem and simply fit a USP."

 

I'm not condemning the technology, I have no experience of it to make that call. I am condemning its use in the first place as a solution to a problem that seems to be of your own creation. In the end the use and experimentation with such remedial action is down to individual choice. But it needs to be pointed out that other solutions are available that are considerably simpler and cheaper. The most significant of which is not to create the problem in the first place.

[Sultan]

Hello Taigatrormmel,

A different cause for you to consider,

When wheels pass over my dead frog peco code 100 point frogs I've found that there is a pothole effect,that is that the wheel briefly dips down off the rail and into the frog when passing over it,this small dipping of the wheel into the pothole can cause the rear or forward wheelset to rise slightly and loose its electrical contact,especially in short wheelbase rigid chassis locos.My remedy has been to place a thin peice of plastic (clear packaging fom a decoder packet) cut into a small stretched triangle shape and then placed into the pothole,this stops the wheel pothole and rocking effect as the wheel is supported briefly on the outside diameter of its flange as it passes through.

A spot of glue then secures the shim in place. Even if your not using code 100 it maybe worth a look and try,

 

Best regards

 

Sultan

 

(Spelling edit)

[Crosland]

I support your comment, Beeman. I am at a total loss as why anyone should be considering this somewhat costly and seemingly dubious technology. The fault has everything to do with track.

And not a little to do with the loco itself. Unless the chassis is compensated or has a lot of play in the bearings there will often only be three wheels in contact with the track on a rigid chasis. No amount of extra pickups wil help if the 4th wheel is the one needed to get juice to the motor.

 

Andrew

[Kenton]

And not a little to do with the loco itself. Unless the chassis is compensated or has a lot of play in the bearings there will often only be three wheels in contact with the track on a rigid chasis. No amount of extra pickups wil help if the 4th wheel is the one needed to get juice to the motor.

 

Andrew

 

Though in fairness this problem is being described for an 0-6-0 which would have different characteristics on plastic frogs. Both of which would be irrelevant on metal frogs that neither posses the insulated gap or exhibit a drop for which springing might resolve. Once again we are looking at a quite reasonable solution for the symptoms rather than a cure (or better still a prevention) of the ill in the first place.

 

All of this to one side does detract from an interesting discussion on the merits and variants of electronic flywheels and USP as a technology.

[beeman]

. I admit I did not 'clock' the 4 wheel railbus, however many comments/answers have been aired to rectify by the advice offered, all suggesting from experienced modellers. My '4 wheel pickup' locos being old Hornby 'Jintys' have a best described as, a ' wrap around' pickup made from thin brass sheet, under the smaller diameter center driving wheels. Also fitting a center axle pivot, with vertical easing of the chassis 'bearing' holes, on the outer sets to allow the wheels some float. Not DCC, which I find better for conductivity with the H.F. but on a DC feedback controller. This loco shunts a fully automatic section/setup with over 9 turnouts, most insulfrogs,16 movements shunting 2 sidings with a run round loop., obviously needing 100% conductivity for continuous operation,otherwise it stops.. I feel my 'condescending reply' referred to has been endorsed by many of the posters suggesting no need to buy gizmos to remedy. Nigelcliffes suggestion of fitting pickup skids underneath to bridge any breaks being similar in method to my Jintys needs, and answers along with other suggestions/solutions for 4 wheel items Beeman.

[noiseboy72]

I built my own stay-alives using 5V 1F capacitors and a voltage multiplier circuit (Circuit diagram is on this site somewhere). They do not work as well as the Lenz USPs, but give half a scond or so which is enough for poor contact over the dead frogs on the double slip. I have a Bachmann Pannier that used to stutter over this particular bit of pointwork but is now totally smooth, even at very low speeds.

 

Clean, flat track is a must and I have also put slips of plasticard in the bottom of a couple of points to keep things flat. If the basics are not right, you will always be on a loser.

[fungus]

My 00 railway is in the garden, so it's a continuing challenge to keep the wheels in electrical contact with he rails. Slug slime and suicidal ants are the worst. I have settled on the Lenz Standard as the decoder giving the smoothest ride, though my one Zimo is also excellent. I am very interested in the "home grown" keep-alive you mention, Ian. Have details been published anywhere, or could you send me details? It could solve my ant problem, though for slime I'll stick with water and a stiff brush.

[Phil Bullock]

On Abbotswood 59 of 60 DCC sound locos are fine - D200 based on the new Bacchy 40 most definitely isn't!

 

Have an ESU power pack on order to fit - will let you know if that solves the problem

CHeers

 

Phil

[pauliebanger]

All of this to one side does detract from an interesting discussion on the merits and variants of electronic flywheels and USP as a technology.

 

We all know that the best solution is to design-in and execute perfection at every stage. Unfortunately, much of the time we find ourselves in a state of 'we are where we are' and no amount of 'if I were going there, I wouldn't start from here' rhetoric is going to offer any practical help.

 

There is some merit in discussing a technology, even if it is one you would not personally consider necessary.  Inview of this, I thought It might be useful to point out that ZIMO's 'electronic flywheel' works differently to the Lenz/ESU solution.

 

If any external capacitance is added to a ZIMO decoder it is detected by the decoder. No surprise there, but it does mean there is no special setting up required.

In addition to using the UPS a power source to maintainn running, or sound, or both, the decoder then automatically operates in such a way as to avoid stopping on non-conductive track (whatever the reason, but lets say a less than scrupulously clean track). As the loco slows down, the decoder constantly monitors track power and will minutely extend the final stopping point if it detects poor connectivity. It will continue to do so until the loco achieves good contact, when a final stop will be made. Thus the loco will be able to receive power and signals whenever a start command is given. Of course, the amount by which the decoder can 'nudge' the loco forwards, although the action is far smoother than that term would imply, being almost undetectable by eye, is dependant upon the stored energy in the capacitor/ups.

 

I've used multiple gold caps in series to achieve the correct voltage (plus a bit of safety margin) with ZIMO HO/OO gauge decoders to great effect, though they can take up a lot of space.

 

There is one issue rarely mentioned regarding high capacitance 'assistance', though Nigel has commented on this elsewhere. If it is too high, and the loco permanently loses the DCC signal, it can continue at it's present speed and direction - including off any unprotected end of track, onto the floor, over the carpet and out through the french doors. ZIMO, and I assume ESU and Lenz, have a CV which you pre-set the duration that a loco can move using UPS power without receiving a DCC signal. If that time is surpassed, the loco will stop, however much energy is still stored in the capacitor(s). Thus one can adjust to allow for dead frogs and the particular operating speed of the target loco, without allowing unfettered power to take charge of operations.

 

 

Rich,

 

Here's a ZIMO MX645 with super (or Gold) caps using only the onboard ZIMO circuitry. This was before I alerted the owner to the correct CV!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78328-ixion-0-gauge-fowler-diesel-loco/page-7&do=findComment&comment=1314145

 

Good luck,

 

Paul

[Suzie]

NMRA standard CV11 sets the timeout value if it is implemented on the decoder, a value of zero disables the timeout.

[Andy Reichert]

SNIP However, I illustrate the worst case scenario below:

 

DSCF3783 (1400x719).jpg

 

Three wheels out of four hitting the frogs simultaneously is going to need some sort of assistance if speeds are to be kept realistic! Luckily this one doesn't traverse the double slip normally, however the shunter can have half its wheels on plastic at a given moment as well and this does regularly cross the slip. Unfortunately the shunter has far less space available inside than the railbus for capacitors.

 

I know the track is less than ideal. I built this as a fill in project using materials lying around, but as I have an exhibition commitment I'm striving to achieve the best running I can without rebuilding the layout.

 

Nigel, the info on Zimo is very useful. It would probably be fine for the railbus in its normal service, just something to smooth things out a little. The shunter probably needs something a little more to really give reliable performance.

 

Something seems to be rather screwy with the slip in the picture. Only the end frogs need any plastic. The centre K frogs could be solid metal. All the rails there (per side) should be of the same polarity all the time.

 

Replace those K's with bits of rail. End of problem.

 

Andy

[pauliebanger]

ZIMO has not implemented CV11.

 

So for ZIMO decoders, use CV153 to set the duration in increments of 1/10th of a second, maximum 25 seconds (255)

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul