Guest Belgian Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 You may as well ask people to stop calling them Spam Cans because they look nothing like a can of spam. The fact is people have been calling them "unrebuilt" far as long as the first rebuilt left the works. It may offend English scholars but that's tough. We can't go around renaming every item of railway equipment because it doesn't appear in the Oxford English Dictionary. Part of the charm of the railways is the traditional terminology - grammatical or otherwise. Get over it! I have no intention of getting over it - it's not just me, but most enthusiasts. They have only been called 'unrebuilts' in recent times due to the sloppy use of English: the long-term name for them was 'unmodified', which got bastardised into 'unrebuilt'. In fact, 'modified' was the original generic term for the altered locomotives. I think the term 'rebuilt' is actually a misnomer: the locomotives were really just modified with a new middle cylinder and conventional rather than chain-driven Walschaerts' valve gear and a conventional smokebox (the latter being a part that would be replaced on many locomotives during their existence anyway). The stripping of the air-smoothed casing was far more dramatic in appearance than in fact. Fundamentally they were still the Bulleid machine. The only true 'rebuilding' affected a limited number of tenders, which had completely new superstructures. JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 In fact, 'modified' was the original generic term for the altered locomotives. JE Well my 1959 combined edition uses "Rebuilt" not "Modified" so I would suggest the original term was and has always been "Rebuilt". Where "modified" comes from I have no idea but it does not seem to be contemporary with the locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 What concerns me far more is that the Bulleid Pacifics are still termed thusly after Jarvis rebuilt them. Is this a case of one rule for everyone else and a different one for the Bulleids? You don't call the P2s or Great Northern "Rebuilt Gresley Pacifics", you don't call the Royal Scots as rebuilt by Stanier "rebuilt fowler royal scots" so why do we even have "Rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics" when they should be termed "Jarvis Pacifics" if we're going with that line of thinking? Solves the problem nicely. All "unrebuilt" engines are on fact Bulleid Pacifics and all rebuilt engines are actually Jarvis Pacifics. No more arguments over unrebuilt/rebuilt! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Mind you, I have just been reading an older Locomotives Illustrated and they refer to the SER 'R' class 0-6-0T and their rebuilds, the R1 class (as made famous by the Hornby Dublo/Wrenn models). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Well my 1959 combined edition uses "Rebuilt" not "Modified" so I would suggest the original term was and has always been "Rebuilt". Where "modified" comes from I have no idea but it does not seem to be contemporary with the locos. It was used in the BR specification for the modification of the locomotives! JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 What concerns me far more is that the Bulleid Pacifics are still termed thusly after Jarvis rebuilt them. Is this a case of one rule for everyone else and a different one for the Bulleids? You don't call the P2s or Great Northern "Rebuilt Gresley Pacifics", you don't call the Royal Scots as rebuilt by Stanier "rebuilt fowler royal scots" so why do we even have "Rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics" when they should be termed "Jarvis Pacifics" if we're going with that line of thinking? Solves the problem nicely. All "unrebuilt" engines are on fact Bulleid Pacifics and all rebuilt engines are actually Jarvis Pacifics. No more arguments over unrebuilt/rebuilt! A neat solution to the 'dilemma', which I like! I'm not particularly worried about calling the modified engines 'rebuilt', but, expanding my earlier comments, using the strange word 'unrebuilt' for the originals seems daft. Anyway, it's all a bit of a mare's nest - I mainly object to being told to 'get over it' . . . what do you think, Mod6? Should you be called Unreb6?!!! JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Ron Jarvis on this subject: "The whole principle of the exercise was to eliminate the unsatisfactory features and retain the many excellent ones the original design included", "And the locomotives themselves: at least 90% of each was still Mr Bulleid's engine". A very capable engineer and modest to boot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paftrain Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I have no intention of getting over it - it's not just me, but most enthusiasts. They have only been called 'unrebuilts' in recent times due to the sloppy use of English: the long-term name for them was 'unmodified', which got bastardised into 'unrebuilt'. In fact, 'modified' was the original generic term for the altered locomotives. I think the term 'rebuilt' is actually a misnomer: the locomotives were really just modified with a new middle cylinder and conventional rather than chain-driven Walschaerts' valve gear and a conventional smokebox (the latter being a part that would be replaced on many locomotives during their existence anyway). The stripping of the air-smoothed casing was far more dramatic in appearance than in fact. Fundamentally they were still the Bulleid machine. The only true 'rebuilding' affected a limited number of tenders, which had completely new superstructures. JE Sorry, but when I was a trainspotter in the late fifties and early sixties, we all (i.e. myself and my trainspotting friends) called them 'unrebuilt' and even 'unmodified'. Whether this was technically incorrect or not, it didn't matter - this was the language we used amongst ourselves for our hobby! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 ...you don't call the Royal Scots as rebuilt by Stanier "rebuilt fowler royal scots"... But they are referred to as "Rebuilt Scots" or "Rebuilt Royal Scots". The originals are referred to as being "Original" or "Fowler"; I have never seen the term "unrebuilt" applied to them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Sorry, but when I was a trainspotter in the late fifties and early sixties, we all (i.e. myself and my trainspotting friends) called them 'unrebuilt' and even 'unmodified'. Whether this was technically incorrect or not, it didn't matter - this was the language we used amongst ourselves for our hobby! Unmodified is fine - it's just 'unrebuilt' that gets many Bulleid enthusiasts riled (You should see some of the comments made on other forums! Actually, better not). JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I'm getting bored with all this: since I kicked off this deviation from the thread I vote we end it here. (The deviation I mean - I fully endorse the OP). JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 29, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2012 I did not start this topic for it to be bogged down with terminology or semantics ; merely to ask--is there a market for an 'as originally constructed' Bulleid Merchant Navy Pacific circa 1944 to late 1959 in 4mm OO scale ? For the record,The Bulleid Society uses the term 'rebuilt'/'rebuild'. As spotters in the 50's & 60's,we used terms such as 'Rebuilt Scots','Baby Scots' (original Patriots) AND---'Rebuilt M.N.' That's history now--we can't rewrite it ,anymore than we can recreate S.R. steam. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod5 Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 So on that note could we please just stick to the OP rather than digress on what the things are/should be called? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruciethefish Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Going back to an earlier post, regarding changing the wheelbase on the earlier Hornby original 'WC' chassis;- I just did one for the hell of it. I whipped off the baseplate, turned round the rear axle in it's cradle, replaced the baseplate & fitted 'MN' rods instead of those supplied. The moulded brakegear appears to be designed to accommodate both wheelbases, so it's just a matter of tapping the rearmost pony truck pivot, fitting the 'MN' pony, & voila! - One correct 'MN' chassis ready for use... It took under 10 minutes, & really is that simple... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 In answer to the original question YES Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OFFTHE RAILS Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Going back to an earlier post, regarding changing the wheelbase on the earlier Hornby original 'WC' chassis;- I just did one for the hell of it. I whipped off the baseplate, turned round the rear axle in it's cradle, replaced the baseplate & fitted 'MN' rods instead of those supplied. The moulded brakegear appears to be designed to accommodate both wheelbases, so it's just a matter of tapping the rearmost pony truck pivot, fitting the 'MN' pony, & voila! - One correct 'MN' chassis ready for use... It took under 10 minutes, & really is that simple... In reply to the OP - I would not be interested in buying an original air-smoothed Bulleid Merchant Navy as these locos were limited to the SR main lines. The WC/BB light pacifics could go almost anywhere (including my model) branch line. A comment on the post quoted above - the very early Hornby/Triang original WC/BB with X04 motor did not have the type of chassis mentioned. The quoted post only applies to the completely new Hornby model introduced around 2002. And I do not accept "unrebuilt" as a correct term. It's sloppy slang. Built is a verb - you can build something. Rebuilt is a verb - you can rebuild something. You can't "unrebuild" something. The official BR term for the Jarvis WC/BB/MN locos was Modified. Finally a previous post refers to Rebuilt Royal Scots - These were yet another example of Midland/LMS accounting fiddles. The Fowler Scots were scrapped over the years and replaced by new locos with (possibly) the original cab sides. They didn't even bother to disguise new engines with Fowler cabsides on the "rebuilt !" Patriots........ Rant over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 .....The Fowler Scots were scrapped over the years and replaced by new locos with (possibly) the original cab sides. .... Mmmm....not sure that's correct, as there was a bit more of the original Fowler engines in the rebuilt ones - the frames and wheels, for instance....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted August 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2012 And I do not accept "unrebuilt" as a correct term. It's sloppy slang. Built is a verb - you can build something. Rebuilt is a verb - you can rebuild something. You can't "unrebuild" something. The official BR term for the Jarvis WC/BB/MN locos was Modified. What are you going to call it if/when they take a rebuilt (I don't agree with your 'official' term) MN and change it back to an air smoothed version with chain driven valve gear (as has been threatened on many occasions)? Now that would be an unrebuilt Bulleid pacific....... Unrebuilt / Rebuilt are also terms used in the NRM's drawing list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 See post #63 from Mod 5. I don't want to see anymore posts about the correct use of unrebuilt/original/unmodified whatever it relates to. I would like to see a rtr model of an air-smoothed Merchant Navy though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted August 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2012 The un- prefix has two distinct meanings, "reverse" and "not". 1. reverse an operation -- undo, uncover 2. not something -- unfriendly, unpainted With the second meaning unrebuilt is a perfectly satisfactory word -- it means not rebuilt. Martin. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod4 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 ‘Oh no, not again,’ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 ‘Oh no, not again,’ Seconded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 The subject matter of this post from the OP is very important to many of us, it would be a great pity for our colleague Mod 4 to make a further visit......I fear it may be his last, and also the last visit any of us will make to this post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I now have a Golden Arrow Productions MN in my hot little hands (thanks Brucie) but I would still welcome a RTR version - anything Hornby or Bachmann (or possibly Dapol?) could release will be sure to possess a better finish than anything I can turn out! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Back in 2000 I used the chassis of the Hornby Merchant Navy with a Millholme Models body to make a Merchant Navy for my Dad. The step in front of the smokebox door is too high on the kit which means the smoke deflectors are not deep enough (I made the whole of the front end from 5 thou brass sheet and measured the deflectors to the step height). Also something very strange is happening with the roof and the chimney. I can't afford a PDK Models kit (or a Golden Arrow one) so it would be nice to have an accurate Mercant Navy if one was available rtr. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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