Theory of General Minories

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I can’t comment on London Stations, but thinking of B’ham Moor St. again as a Minories candidate, IIRC the local Services in the 1970s / 1980s only served two lines, to Leamington Spa or Stratford, but some Leamington trains stopped at Dorridge, and some Stratford trains stopped at Shirley (I think).  All the trains were the same and basically stopped at all stations, but it wouldn’t stretch things too far to imagine different trains for different Services (ie: local or semi-fast).  A Seironim could perhaps be used as a scenic fiddle yard?  Heritage lines run end to end, but I really can’t picture one using a Minories (for multiple reasons).

Closest heritage stations to Minories would be Bury Bolton St or Grosmont by virtue of the number of platforms (both have three) and the fact that trains regularly change locos here.   But in terms of design and application I would have them as distant relations of Minories whom we don't speak of.

 

Then I thought of Kidderminster but it only has the single island platform.

[FoxUnpopuli]

I now would dearly love a thread starting that covers 'possible station locations which could have homed all of the Big-Four'.  I was thinking of trying to model a revised through version of Waterloo, but I lived in Oxford for a while (and as I'm a big fan of alternate realities, I'm a fan of Philip Pullman too) so this sounds very interesting.

 

However, back to the matters at hand... how's this?  Useful? 

 

(200mm grid.)

[Keith Addenbrooke]

25 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I think it's inevitable that in any thread discussion is free-wheeling and will veer off-topic for long periods. We're all creative people and we like to share new ideas that are sparked off by the original topic.

 

But we should think about the new reader who is looking for the information described in the title and the opening post...!

 

Good point, I know I like to test theories, but there will be a mixture of readers and contributors as you say.
 

As I see we’re now on page 50 and regularly appearing as a Hot topic, might I ask if you might re-post your rendering of the original design on this page to help anyone having a look for the first time (and maybe not used to navigating RMweb)?  Perhaps with a link to your fiddle yard scheme, which is the best I’ve seen of for making the most of the Minories station layout in a restricted space?  

Edited June 17, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[CaptainBiggles]

12 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

The issue I would have with a Minories / Seironim layout is that Minories represents the Urban end of the line with intense commuting services - would it really only serve one location on outbound services (quickly thinks Fenchurch Street, surely trains go to more than one destination).  In effect being a mirror Seironim represents another intense service commuter station but at the country end, Minories should send trains to more than one location to justify the intensity.

Well, referring back to my previous comment about Minories (Fenchurch St) / Upminster a few pages ago, I stand by Upminster being an ideal Seironim. Upminster is the terminus for the District Line and the push-pull branch to Romford as well as a stopping point to Shoeburyness for the old London, Tilbury & Shoeburyness line. So plenty of urban-style operation & variety. You could either imagine it as a terminus or  even extend round the fourth side of the shed (lifting section for the door) to give a small FY for the LTS trains to emerge from.

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

might I ask if you might re-post your rendering of the original design on this page

 

A potentially longer-term solution is to ask the original author to edit the opening post with developments/conclusions, so that all may be able to easily find useful information at any time. Admitedly, tricky in this case but as Minories is such an iconic track plan, and the information contained in this thread is so useful, perhaps it would warrant a new, perhaps pinned, post by a regular contributor once this one has run its course...?

 

I've been working up the courage to suggest something similar in the Layouts sub-forum, but not there yet!

Edited June 17, 2020 by Schooner
Spellinj. Edit 2: just checked that the OP is AWOL Edit 3: too slow with edit 2...

[Keith Addenbrooke]

22 minutes ago, Schooner said:

 

A potentially longer-term solution is to ask the original author to edit the opening post with developments/conclusions, so that all may be able to easily find useful information at any time.

 

I've been working up the courage to suggest something similar in the Layouts sub-forum, but not there yet!

 

Hi Schooner, if I understand it correctly, when @AY Mod changed the title of the thread to reflect the ongoing conversation recently, it was noted that the original author had not been on RMweb for a few years.
 

One reason I wondered about Harlequin’s up-to-date drawings is I think any Peco / CJF / RM originals will still be in copyright so couldn’t be used (I don’t think originals of Minories have appeared on any of the pages I’ve read).  As well as being top drawer renditions, Harlequin is also building a Minories (see Layout topics) so is applying the theory too.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke
(pressed submit before completing)

[woodenhead]

8 minutes ago, Schooner said:

 

A potentially longer-term solution is to ask the original author to edit the opening post with developments/conclusions, so that all may be able to easily find useful information at any time.

 

I've been working up the courage to suggest something similar in the Layouts sub-forum, but not there yet!

Well Cyril passed away 11 years ago and Mike W2 has not been on the forum in three years so whichever original author you are referring to, it may be a long wait to see that.

 

Oddly for a thread with 50 pages the twists and turns it has gone on has actually been interesting, normally such single topic threads degenerate to the point I place them into the ignore bin.  A general theory of Minories has the potential as a general lesson in designing your layout so reading the whole thread may have merits for anyone thinking of developing a terminus.

[Zomboid]

50 pages. We should all get matching tattoos or something to mark the achievement of taking a classic 60+ year old track plan and wittering on about it and various increasingly tangential subjects for so long. A stylised minories throat being the obvious design. I'll have one on my left arm (with the platforms starting just above my elbow). Maybe I could have Seironim on my right and the Interstitial across my shoulders.

 

No? Just me then?

[Clive Mortimore]

With all the theories, redesigns and counter suggestions, who out of the regular contributors and viewers have made a Minories type layout and enjoyed building it and operating it?

 

My hand is high in the air.

 

Would you build another one?

 

My hand is high in the air.

[scottystitch]

A number of years ago, a forum member sent me a diagram of minories with add on modules.  I'm not sure of the origin of said modules; was it Freezer's idea?  Anyway, I had a go of drawing them out in N gauge.  Track is Code 40 and most of the turnouts are B6, although there is a B7 and and a B8 in there as well.  The crossing in the station is actually a number 6 double slip.  The crossing at the Junction is a number 6 as well, but just a standard diamond.

 

I've rationalised the Engine Servicing board down to a single road engine shed and a siding for a rake of 3 carriages.  The shed for the station pilot (which would double as the goods yard shunter?), perhaps, and a turntable for incoming service train locomotives to turn and be fuelled/watered.

 

I had pondered a canal basin in the dead ground between station and goods yard.  The wharf might make for interesting operations.

 

If it were to be exhibited, I'd imagine the operators would be on the inside of the curve, but I suppose you could have it vice versa as well.  For a home setup you could utilise the curved modules to make the layout suit the room it was set up in.

 

The engine shed board and the junction board could have their positions swapped. I suppose the canal basin would have to be either a seperate board or part of the goods yard board so it went wherever the goods yard went.

 

Best

 

Scott.

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

29 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

With all the theories, redesigns and counter suggestions, who out of the regular contributors and viewers have made a Minories type layout and enjoyed building it and operating it?

 

My hand is high in the air.

 

Would you build another one?

 

My hand is high in the air.

Full credit to those who’ve done so, are doing so, and will do so.  
 

I’ve found the thread really helpful in exploring the rationale, theory and practice of building and operating Terminus Stations and Fiddle Yard layouts, which I was able to synthesise into a design for a post yesterday, and I have to admit that @t-b-g and @Pacific231G especially have made me think seriously about whether I should join this elite club.  Although I’m not (quite) there yet, I have nevertheless made more progress on my own layout build as a result of the impetus this thread has given, which is a different but I hope positive outcome too: am I building a better layout than I have before? Yes.  Will I then want to build another, even better one?  Yes.

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

Hi Schooner, if I understand it correctly, when @AY Mod changed the title of the thread to reflect the ongoing conversation recently, it was noted that the original author had not been on RMweb for a few years.
 

One reason I wondered about Harlequin’s up-to-date drawings is I think any Peco / CJF / RM originals will still be in copyright so couldn’t be used (I don’t think originals of Minories have appeared on any of the pages I’ve read).  As well as being top drawer renditions, Harlequin is also building a Minories (see Layout topics) so is applying the theory too.

CJF was AFAIK an employee (not all editors are) so work he did for RM will almost certainly still  be Peco's copyright including his actual artwork and drawings. However the track arrangement isn't copyright and it's fairly easy to reproduce it but in any  case CJF modified it going from 6ft 6ins in OO (5ft in TT-3) to 6ft 8ins then 7ft then 8ft and probably going from nominally two foot radius to three foot radius points. Phil's actual drawings are also his copyright as are those from anybody here.

[Pacific231G]

11 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

Hi Schooner, if I understand it correctly, when @AY Mod changed the title of the thread to reflect the ongoing conversation recently, it was noted that the original author had not been on RMweb for a few years.
 

One reason I wondered about Harlequin’s up-to-date drawings is I think any Peco / CJF / RM originals will still be in copyright so couldn’t be used (I don’t think originals of Minories have appeared on any of the pages I’ve read).  As well as being top drawer renditions, Harlequin is also building a Minories (see Layout topics) so is applying the theory too.

CJF was AFAIK an employee (not all editors are) so work he did for RM will almost certainly still  be Peco's copyright including his actual artwork and drawings. However the track arrangement isn't copyright and it's fairly easy to reproduce it but in any  case CJF modified it going from 6ft 6ins in OO (5ft in TT-3) to 6ft 8ins then 7ft then 8ft and probably going from nominally two foot radius to three foot radius points. Phil's actual drawings are also his copyright as are those from anybody here.

 

The fine irony as that so far as we know the one person who never actually built a Minories was CJF himself.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Zomboid]

4 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

With a bit more space it could be a proper Minories / Seironim model, and with your curved Interstitial at point [3] there’d be scope to have a hidden continuous run using the MAD / SAD round the back of the stations and across a lift out section.

You don't need any more space than 8x4 if you would be happy with trains consisting of a tank engine/ small diesel with 2 bogie carriages and a 4 wheel CCT... (more carriages probably possible if you're going pre-grouping)

 

The location of the pointwork means that if it's on sectional boards then it's got to be 3x 3x1 and 3x 2x1 (the ends could be something different, and the kickback at Minories would have its pointwork on a join so I didn't bother. There's no way of getting the MAD/SAD connections in in this space, but c'mon man, this is an 8x4 layout plan...

 

I have to say that I think @Harlequin's Seironim is really fantastic. The way it conveys "major station complexity" in a really small space is very impressive.

 

The curves are both 3rd radius with little straight bits on the outer to account for the differing radius. I'm sure better could be achieved to give a more consistent 6 foot, but I didn't bother with that.

 

It also highlights that I really should pay for Anyrail, I've definitely had £45s worth of fun out of it...

Edited June 17, 2020 by Zomboid

[Compound2632]

Re. the MAD/SAD dual-terminus U-shaped layout, how much room would be needed for a fiddle yard - say three lines for each direction - on the curve of the U?

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

With all the theories, redesigns and counter suggestions, who out of the regular contributors and viewers have made a Minories type layout and enjoyed building it and operating it?

 

My hand is high in the air.

 

Would you build another one?

 

My hand is high in the air.

 

Yes to both from me too.

 

Mansfield Market Place sort of ground to a stop after Malcolm Crawley passed away and Ken Hill decided he didn't want to exhibit at shows any more. The layout started when Malcolm wanted to build a GCR Atlantic but wanted it in LNER black livery to suit his own mid 30s layout. His reasoning was that if he did it in GCR livery he would not have anywhere to run it.

 

My response was "You sort the locos and stock and I will do the layout". He completed 2 locos, which I now have. It needs rather too much stock building to run it properly but after Malcolm died Ken helped with the layout and we ran it as a work in progress exhibit at a couple of shows, using locos and stock borrowed from Narrow Road. So that is the one built and operated. One day, when I get all my GCR carriages built, it may resurface.

 

The mini minories Sheffield District Railway is the new one. A bit smaller, shorter trains, plus I have all the stock but may build a couple of extra locos just because I want them! It will get finished first.

 

This thread has been most enjoyable but I think we are close to running out of new things to say after 50 pages. Thanks to all those who have contributed ideas, thoughts and plans.

 

It has made me revisit one or two ideas. In particular the loco release traverser hidden under an overall roof. That may yet appear one day! A traverser and a kickback fiddle yard behind the station is looking promising, which would allow scenic development over the traverser as no "fiddling" would be needed there any more.

 

So let's all get building! The time for talking is probably over!

[Zomboid]

Just now, t-b-g said:

So let's all get building! The time for talking is probably over!

I have a 9 month old daughter. Talking is all I have time for... (I would say "sadly", but I wouldn't really mean it).

[Keith Addenbrooke]

6 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

CJF was AFAIK an employee (not all editors are) so work he did for RM will almost certainly still  be Peco's copyright including his actual artwork and drawings. However the track arrangement isn't copyright and it's fairly easy to reproduce it but in any  case CJF modified it going from 6ft 6ins in OO (5ft in TT-3) to 6ft 8ins then 7ft then 8ft and probably going from nominally two foot radius to three foot radius points. Phil's actual drawings are also his copyright as are those from anybody here.

 

The fine irony as that so far as we know the one person who

Thanks for the clarification - clearer than my post.  I suspect there’s more to finish the last sentence, though?
 

If someone replies to one of my posts and the quote reposts a drawing I’ve done (or a photo I took) as part of the conversation I’m personally OK with that - the source and context is quite clear.  They usually improve the drawing I did too of course.

[Nearholmer]

Keep going Zomboid - you'll convince Keith to build the classic 1920s/30s 0 gauge layout, consisting of two opposing termini branching from a circuit! 

 

It is easier in a cramped space if one of the two termini is outside the circuit, otherwise it gets difficult to accommodate the length.

 

Which is all a bit OT. Sorry.

[t-b-g]

1 minute ago, Zomboid said:

I have a 9 month old daughter. Talking is all I have time for... (I would say "sadly", but I wouldn't really mean it).

 

I remember that well. Mine are just in their late 20s and early 30s now. Enjoy it while you can, it goes quickly!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Keep going Zomboid - you'll convince Keith to build the classic 1920s/30s 0 gauge layout, consisting of two opposing termini branching from a circuit! 

 

It is easier in a cramped space if one of the two termini is outside the circuit, otherwise it gets difficult to accommodate the length.

 

Which is all a bit OT. Sorry.

I’m sure I saw a proposal to achieve just that on another thread yesterday?

[t-b-g]

Way off topic now but just to prove I am actually building something, this is the Signal box for Sheffield.

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Re. the MAD/SAD dual-terminus U-shaped layout, how much room would be needed for a fiddle yard - say three lines for each direction - on the curve of the U?

According to the derivation from the Theory of General Minories, I believe the answer is no space at all - the idea was to replace the fiddle yard, first of all with Seironim, then with a second order differential to add additional single line cassette storage (MAD and SAD) behind each station.  The twig variation also hides the fiddle yard, but doesn’t add length to the design.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Metropolitan H]

 

Having been trying to play catch-up, I have now been inspired to submit a copy of my - work in progress (at a standstill currently) - "O" gauge 3-rail layout plan - inspired by and providing home for Metropolitan "Electric" trains and LNER Widened Lines types. The track is ready to fix when I have suitable noise-deadening underlay.

 

It is not "Minories" - most likely to be named "Gutter Lane" or "Finsbury Circus" and is in the mould of Nearholmer's "Deliberately Old Fashioned" meanderings. But a lot of study of the "Minories" plan went into the gestation of my layout. What I do know it gives me a lot of operating opportunities in a small space (equivalent of 6' x 4' in 00).

 

 

For info, the track is coarse scale Atlas 3-rail with 27 inch minimum radius curves and turnouts which looks good with the shortish coaches and locos.

 

 

Any comments?

 

Regards

Chris H

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Metropolitan H
Sorting the attachment

[Nearholmer]

Chris

 

I suggest that you draw the platforms on, and photograph a Met train on the layout, because then it will be easier for those who haven’t seen it to understand how very good it is.

 

K

 

(while cooking the dinner)