Aircraft Built by Brush?

[edcayton]

In another post I have said what a great day I had yesterday. The day was capped off by a flight in a DeHavilland Dragon Rapide biplane which was brilliant. I have to say I was bricking it at first, but then decided that if I had to go this would be as good a way as any.

 

After the flight we were talking to the pilot (we were the last flight of the day so he had some time) and I said how much I missed the open days/flying displays at the factory in Hatfield. He told me that their planes (they had two) were both built by Brush Coachworks in Leicester which made my ears prick up.

 

Some quick googling last night shows that a number of these planes were built during the war by a division of Brush, as in loco's etc, as Dominies for the RAF. I am sure this will come as no surprise to plane buffs on here, but it did to me.

 

I did know that the RAF versions of the HS 125 business jets were known as Dominies, but not the earlier ones.

 

The flights cost just under £40 each based on six people, but parties of four or more get a discount. They also have longer flights and solo rides in Tiger Moths. The company is called Classic Flights Duxford and I can really recommend them-no connection etc.

 

Ed

[Jim49]

Flying machines built by Brush. My MIL uses one of them or a broomstick as it is better known.

[Titan]

An English Electric Meteor will have it beat!

[Flying Pig]

I had a flight from Old Warden the other week in Air Atlantique's G-AGTM (aka "Sybille"), another Brush Coachworks Dominie. In fact according to their website all three of their Rapides are actually Brush-built Dominies.

 

Not having flown in a propeller-driven aircraft of any kind before, to do so in a DH-designed biplane was quite a treat. While the interior doesn't quite reflect the svelte Art Deco lines of the airframe, once I'd clambered up the foot-wide aisle the simple seat was remarkably comfortable and the ride gentle and stately despite the day being a little bouncy - not surprising given some of the weather that was wandering about. Here's a view towards the Olympics from somewhere over Bedfordshire:

 

 

And here's Sybille herself resting after a busy morning:

 

[Fay Singpoint]

An English Electric Meteor will have it beat!

 

Should that be a Gloster Meteor

[jcm@gwr]

Should that be a Gloster Meteor

 

No, I think he meant an English Electric Lightning!

[Flying Pig]

Actually, with a 90 knots cruising speed, a Brush type 4 in decent fettle could give it a good run. But if all you want is speed, you don't fly and certainly not in something called a Rapide...

[Titan]

No, I think he meant an English Electric Lightning!

 

I think you may be right - I'm not much of an aircraft anorak - should have googled it first to check!

[jcm@gwr]

I think you may be right - I'm not much of an aircraft anorak - should have googled it first to check!

 

One of the few [if not the only] aircraft to be able, during take-off, to go vertical

as soon as the wheels left the ground!

Thye banned it from doing that because it caused concrete runways to explode

Amazing aircraft, I have lots of stories about them, directly from an ex-test pilot.

 

Cheers, Jeff

[edcayton]

I believe Jeremy Clarkson has one in his front garden. Are any still flying?

 

Ed

[Flying Pig]

Certainly not in the UK, and I believe that Thunder City in South Africa, which used to offer flights in Lightnings (two-seaters of course) and Buccaneers, has ceased operation following a fatal crash.

 

Edit: Brian Cox got an "edge of space flight" in a Lightning from Thunder City at the Beeb's expense for "Wonders of the Solar System", for which I will never forgive him. James May only got to fly in a boring U2.

[D6975]

I believe Jeremy Clarkson has one in his front garden. Are any still flying?

 

Ed

 

The Lightning was actually only borrowed for a short while as part of his Speed TV program. It's long gone now.

 

(On the program he claimed to have bought it)

[Fat Controller]

To return to aircraft built by Brush.. When these DH89s were being built, Brush were specialist tram-builders, and didn't get into diesel loco building until after WW2; building wooden-framed aircraft would have involved many of the same techniques as wooden-framed tram cars. I had a flight from Duxford on one of these; I was somewhat taken aback to see daylight all around the cabin door..

Brush had another, later, involvement with aviation, in that they became part of the Hawker-Siddeley group (from 1957)

[Blacque Jacque]

One of the few [if not the only] aircraft to be able, during take-off, to go vertical

as soon as the wheels left the ground!

Thye banned it from doing that because it caused concrete runways to explode

Amazing aircraft, I have lots of stories about them, directly from an ex-test pilot.

 

Cheers, Jeff

 

Indeed.

I am fortunate to have witnessed that spectacle (vertical climbs from takeoff, not exploding runways) in my younger days when pilots were still allowed to display these acts of wanton aerial hooliganism. The climb was followed by the sonic boom while he was still going straight up !! There is little more impressive to a 6yr old.

 

Back on topic, I really must get back to Duxford one of these days.

[298]

Actually, with a 90 knots cruising speed, a Brush type 4 in decent fettle could give it a good run. But if all you want is speed, you don't fly and certainly not in something called a Rapide...

 

Humph. A Rapide will happily cruise at 140mph, and will usually get to it's destination quicker and in a straighter line than anything on the ground.

 

My Dad had the handbrake lever from a Rapide (DH, not Aston Martin) in his loft. Had he known which Aircraft it came off, under the old regs he could have technically carried out a rebuild and used the old registration.

[Adrian]

I had a flight from Old Warden the other week in Air Atlantique's G-AGTM (aka "Sybille"), another Brush Coachworks Dominie. In fact according to their website all three of their Rapides are actually Brush-built Dominies.

 

You didn't happen to buzz Warwick Castle on your flight? We were there on the on the 11th and I'm sure I saw a Rapide do a flyby.

 

One of the few [if not the only] aircraft to be able, during take-off, to go vertical

as soon as the wheels left the ground!

Thye banned it from doing that because it caused concrete runways to explode

Amazing aircraft, I have lots of stories about them, directly from an ex-test pilot.

Indeed.

I am fortunate to have witnessed that spectacle (vertical climbs from takeoff, not exploding runways) in my younger days when pilots were still allowed to display these acts of wanton aerial hooliganism. The climb was followed by the sonic boom while he was still going straight up !! There is little more impressive to a 6yr old.

Sorry I can't let this pass without comment - nice stories about an incredible aircraft, but slight rose tinted glasses I fear. Yes the Lightning did have plenty of thrust but not enough to accelerate vertical from wheels up and to accelerate through Mach 1.0 in a vertical climb - no chance at all I'm afraid.

 

What they did do was to accelerate rapidly, get airborne, accelerate down the runway up to 400+kts and then put it vertical. It looks impressive but as the thrust barely exceeds the basic mass empty I strongly doubt that it would be able to accelerate vertically at all, the speed would be bleeding off in the climb but the entry conditions make it look impressive and as the altitude increases the speed bleed off is not noticeable.

 

As for high altitude IIRC in a zoom climb the Lightning has managed close to 88,000ft on a couple of occasions.

[clecklewyke]

Am I right in believing that a certain ArthurK of this parish, better known now for his NER loco kits, was a designer of the EE Lightning?

[edcayton]

You didn't happen to buzz Warwick Castle on your flight? We were there on the on the 11th and I'm sure I saw a Rapide do a flyby.

 

 

 

Sorry I can't let this pass without comment - nice stories about an incredible aircraft, but slight rose tinted glasses I fear. Yes the Lightning did have plenty of thrust but not enough to accelerate vertical from wheels up and to accelerate through Mach 1.0 in a vertical climb - no chance at all I'm afraid.

 

What they did do was to accelerate rapidly, get airborne, accelerate down the runway up to 400+kts and then put it vertical. It looks impressive but as the thrust barely exceeds the basic mass empty I strongly doubt that it would be able to accelerate vertically at all, the speed would be bleeding off in the climb but the entry conditions make it look impressive and as the altitude increases the speed bleed off is not noticeable.

 

As for high altitude IIRC in a zoom climb the Lightning has managed close to 88,000ft on a couple of occasions.

 

There was a programme on BBC4 earlier which did state that the Lightning could do Mach1 in a vertical climb.

 

Ed

 

An interesting programme with some frightening footage.

[Adrian]

Not seen the program yet so don't know exactly what was said, I'll have a flick though iplayer later.

 

However the only way a Lightning could feasibly climb vertically supersonically is by going into the climb well above Mach 1 to start with and even then it would be slowing down. As good as the aircraft is, I remain extremely sceptical that it could accelerate vertically through Mach 1. Yes it has slightly more thrust to weight but there is no way that the thrust was greater than the weight plus supersonic drag

[ArthurK]

Am I right in believing that a certain ArthurK of this parish, better known now for his NER loco kits, was a designer of the EE Lightning?

 

Correct! I started work with English Electric in 1952. The P1A, the lightning predecessor, was well into its design stage and initial build. It was to ministry spec F23/49. It was assembled at the factory in Strand Road. When complete it was dismantled and taken to Boscommbe Down for first flight and trials. First flown by Rowland Beamont (Bea for short). I was in holiday in Cornwell when its first flight was announced in 1954. On its return to Warton all were asembled outside the flight sheds and were greeted first with a sonic boom the a series of fly pasts. There were only two P1A phototypes both are preserved. Its sucessor was the PiB which was to become the Lightning.

I worked in the aerodynamics office and became deeply involved with its evolution though I cannot really claim to have had any major influence. I think my biggest part was being asked by "Freddie" Page how much larger we should make the fin (it was much too small). I said 30% Has sat back looked and said we can have 10%. However my estimate was vindicated we eventually ended up with 45%!

 

I could add a lot more but this isn't the place.

 

ArthurK

[Flying Pig]

Humph. A Rapide will happily cruise at 140mph,

 

I'm pretty sure the pilot said 90 knots and 1000 feet: it was a very local hop.

 

You didn't happen to buzz Warwick Castle on your flight? We were there on the on the 11th and I'm sure I saw a Rapide do a flyby.

No (Old Warden is in Bedfordshire), but the aircraft is based at Coventry, so you might well have seen it.

[Will J]

I have seen 170 kts on the dial of a Dragon Rapide... which was interesting and quite incredibly noisy...

 

Unlike the claims made here for the Lightning, we were certainly going downhill at the time!

[wombatofludham]

I've flown in two Dragon Rapides, one at Showerbus at Duxford, the other at Birmingham Airport's 60th anniversary bash which involved a circuit over the city centre. Both times the pilots moved me from the back to the very front seat behind the cockpit. Took me several years to work out that at over 20 stone if I was at the back, I'd probably throw the plane out of balance or at least make it more difficult to control, so presumably I was moved to the front over the wings because I was porky.

 

I've never been in one since.

[Fat Controller]

I've flown in two Dragon Rapides, one at Showerbus at Duxford, the other at Birmingham Airport's 60th anniversary bash which involved a circuit over the city centre. Both times the pilots moved me from the back to the very front seat behind the cockpit. Took me several years to work out that at over 20 stone if I was at the back, I'd probably throw the plane out of balance or at least make it more difficult to control, so presumably I was moved to the front over the wings because I was porky.

 

I've never been in one since.

When we flew on the one from Duxford, the crew subtly directed all the passengers towards particular seats, as though following some invisible load plan; I presume these aircraft are more sensitive than modern types to weight distribution.

[edcayton]

It was something of a shock to be asked to "just step on the scales" after we had paid, but before we could get on the plane! Two of us had cause to be embarrassed by this and, yes, they positioned us strategically. Good thing there were only five in our party 'cos we weighed as much as six normals.

 

Ed