Buses in Cornwall in 1960's / 1970s

[SRman]

If it is of any help, if you buy any of the above types in the Tilling colours but with other fleetnames or inappropriate adverts and destinations for the area or era, most such markings will come off with acetone or other nail varnish removers. This works for EFE and OOC models but be careful because the base colour is usually baked on but the 'overlay' colours such as the cream bands are not, so will also come off with the acetone.

[Gwiwer]

It's worth noting as well that the application of cream and black bands varied between Tilling fleets, between vehicles within a fleet and sometimes between nominally identical vehicles within a batch. Intended use often dictated the exact livery style and a cascaded coach used later in life as a bus or dual-purpose vehicle might have a different application again. As with trains it pays to find prototypical pictures if one is modelling specifics. RtR models are usually acceptable as a general representation out of the box however.

[Gwiwer]

A fascinating selection of hardware on show here:-

 

Fry's of Tintagel (and their well-known primrose livery with - in some cases - a large "Arthurian" knight also decorating the side panels) : http://www.flickr.co...ol-1042302@N21/

Jennings of Bude showing their orange and cream (later white) livery which was also well-known : http://www.flickr.co...ings-bude/pool/

Some Grenville, Troon, vehicles on this link mostly in their normal plum and grey livery : http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

Quite a selection of Cornish independents also on this link including Harvey's Nimbus RJX250 I discussed above showing the huge destination box on such a diminutive vehicle. http://www.flickr.co...57626173397941/

 

You will also find a number of independents in those links who are not given in my list above. They mostly existed at the time but did not provide scheduled public bus services. Some did so more recently than the 1977 listing I gave including the UK mainland's most southerly operator namely Pollard (Cherry Tree Coaches) of Ruan Minor almost at Lizard Point and Ede (Roselyn, pronounced Rose-line locally and with a two-tone green livery) of Par who ran a large fleet of coaches and half-cab double deckers (I recall numerous AEC Regent V types being parked up at Middleway every weekend) on school work. Ede still runs both coaches and now rear-engined deckers but has very seldom dipped his toes into the registered local bus waters.

[BristolBill]

We are still waiting for a Bristol KSW 1/76th. diecast model from any of the manufacturers. The actual bus was made with open or closed rear platform, and overall throughout the U.K. was used by over twenty different companies so therefore over twenty different liveries , so plenty of variations to be made , probably more than the Bristol FLF Lodekka which has been so successful for EFE.

 

Also the Bristol VR in Bristol Omnibus Co. Ltd. livery, all of the variations served in the city but none have been produced so far in model form. 

[crompton 33]

EFE are releasing a Bristol VR series 1 on the 23rd of August . 38112 in Western national Livery. 38113 in Southdown livery.  Bristol Livery to follow later.

[BristolBill]

Thanks for that information , Crompton 33

 

Just the KSW to wait for then. 

[HillsideDepot]

I'd be surprised if EFE did a Bristol livery series 1 VRT as they don't currently have a dual-door version body. I'd be very happy if they do produce one, but as relatively few operators had dual door VRTs I suspect EFE would not recover the tooling costs. But I am ever hopeful that one will appear at some point.

[crompton 33]

The Little bus company made a kit of a bristol ksw at one time , Plus Pirate models made a kit. OOC and Atlas Editions make a K type model with ECW bodywork.

[BristolBill]

The Little Bus Company and Pirate models are not diecast , and the OOC and Atlas Editions models are not KSW`s. The OOC model not being very good at all.

So the wait goes on.

[islandtraction]

I think its fair to say that despite many thinking Tilling fleets with Bristol/ECW buses were pretty standardised apart from being red or green, there was a huge amount of variety and differences between them, e.g Crosville and Western National couldn't have been more different. Crosville majored on FS 60 seat back loader deckers whilst WN favoured the 70 seat FLF front loader. Likewise MW buses, Crosville had hundreds whilst WN just 30 odd new ones, and the situation was reversed when it came to LS buses, which at one time was WNs standard saloon. The Bristol SUL4A, basically a Tilling version of an Albion Nimbus, was a favourite of WN both as a bus and a coach (more a dual purpose type really) whilst rare elsewhere. Crosville again had similar numbers of SC4LKs again a Tilling style Bedford SB, whilst WN had some similar looking but longer rebodied Bristol LL's which had previously been Royal Blue coaches.

The OOC diecast L type is no use as a WN/SN type unless converted to one of the rebodied Beadle prewar examples (quite a bit of work), as the longer and wider LWL was WNs favoured choice. Many of these types have been available as resin kits, but prices are high amongst collectors with ebay examples often fetching money far beyond their worth. The EFE LS, FLF, and OOC K type are good ones to go with. If you're feeling flush, you could try and source a rebodied LL, LBC Bristol LWL and later MW style Royal Blue coach (I think Tony has some in stock):  

http://www.little-bus.com/

or a (Buskits) SUL4A bus, all of which are nice kits. The SUL4A coach isn't bad, but the LBC lowbridge KSW isn't all it ought to be tbh. 

I've attached pics of a standard LS bus at Launceston en route to Delabole, an early MW type bus at Cawsand, and an SUL4A bus at Okehampton en route to Tavistock. I've many more such pics if of help. Western and Southern National merged into just Western National in 1968 the rationale for the separate titling having long disappeared along with their association with the GWR/SR railway companies. They'd still stuck doggedly to the old railway company territories, so North Devon and Cornwall was Southern National and the remainder of Devon and Cornwall was Western National. They did get mixed around though, and where "joint" services existed, buses were often stabled overnight at each others depots, whilst the crews changed en route (e.g. the Plymouth-Bideford 132) taking over each others respective charges in order to get home for the night! The "merger" also brought about a renumbering of routes, as many had previously been duplicated, thus much of Cornwall ended up numbered in the 500/600 series with 300's in North Cornwall, and many existing numbers retained in the East of the county. 

Need any help? Give me a shout,

 

Cheers, Keith

[islandtraction]

as a postscript... I forgot to mention that BT Models have produced a Western National LD series Lodekka, which were once common in Cornwall - these are very reasonable representations at about £20. They're also about to release a model of the MW bus, the first green one will be Crosville, but with new fleet names and a bit of tweaking it could produce an ...MDV or FTA ...D WN example. Check out Hattons and John Ayrey Diecasts sites for pics,

 

Keith

[Ben04uk]

Keith, lovely photos. Do you have any further photos in far western Cornwall, or perhaps in and around St Ives or Falmouth?

[Gwiwer]

The short Bristol SUS was allocated to Penzance for some very tight routes where larger vehicles couldn't go.  The 9 to Mousehole was the tightest of these with 90-degree turns on a hill first left then right between high granite walls to enter the village.  In order to provide adequate capacity the timetable offered journeys as often as every ten minutes when combined with "local boy" Harvey who traded as Blue & Cream and ran parallel with ex-Halifax short Albion Nimbus RJX250.

 

I always thought it mildly amusing that the buses passing Newlyn fish market were mostly registered COD 

 

The SUSs also appeared on the 5 (Gwavas Estate), 7 (Perranuthnoe), 8 (Sancreed), 16A (Kenegie) and 138 (Tredinnick) roads which all had tight squeezes and corners.

 

I can vouch for the amount of space there isn't at those locations having driven the more recent (1990s) equivalents of the same routes in Mercedes 608, 709 and 811 buses.  The 811s were the biggest ever to get into Mousehole Harbour at the time  If you got it right there was an inch either side.  If you didn't, or if the passengers all stood up ready to get off and the bus tilted on its suspension ........  Larger buses which were used on school runs had to turn outside the village with an awkward and tight reversing move at the Old Coastguard Hotel.  That put your back end up hill into a residential road where yo hoped no-one had parked!  The same move was required during the past summer when the Sunday service was doubled from hourly to half-hourly using double-deckers between trips on the 17 to St. Ives.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

The "merger" also brought about a renumbering of routes, as many had previously been duplicated, thus much of Cornwall ended up numbered in the 500/600 series with 300's in North Cornwall, and many existing numbers retained in the East of the county. 

 

I had understood that the zoned service numbering came about as part of the NBC changes from 1970 when there was a centralisation of administration at Queen Street, Exeter, for the entire WN group (WN, SN, Devon General for a time, Royal Blue and some others).  The advent of computers caused problems with more than one route numbered 1 for example.  However there are many sources illustrating those numbers in pre-NBC days not least of which is the cover photo of Colin Morris's "Western National Omnibus Company" which shows a Bristol LD at St. Ives on the 517 to Penzance dated July 1969.  

 

The previous hotchpotch which had evolved over many years of nominally separate existence but which generally had WN numbers in the lower series up to 199 and SN routes higher was altered thus:-

 

1 - 99 Plymouth area routes some of which were operated by Plymouth City Transport in a single non-overlapping series.

100-series : Torbay, south and west Devon area routes excluding those within Plymouth

200-series : Somerset area routes

300-series : North and east Devon area routes excluding Exeter City service which retained their traditional letters after the WN takeover of the municipal operator

400-series : Dorset area routes

500-series : Cornwall area routes (though not Torpoint, Callington or Launceston routes which were considered to be "Devon" area as there was no WN bus link between east and mid Cornwall)

 

It was the operating depot rather than the geo-political boundaries which determined the number series.  Thus the 93 (Plymouth - Dartmouth) was considered a Plymouth route and the local Dartmouth route 90 likewise despite the fact they ran many miles away from that city and - in the case of the 90 - never got anywhere near it.  The equally lengthy Plymouth - Barnstaple route was the 85 despite having one bus allocated from each end with the northern terminus firmly in "300 country"

 

The County Council / Operator timetables produced under NBC auspices through the 1970s and 1980s used higher number series' to identify private operator's routes (of which there were very many at the time) with, for example, the 900-series assigned to Cornish independents.  When that filled a handful of routes was assigned numbers above 1000.  Very few (if any) of those were ever displayed on the vehicles.  Many didn't even bother with a destination as it was assumed that they were largely for locals who knew where their bus was going anyway.  

 

There is ample evidence of this system still in use today.

 

While Cornish routes lost their 500-prefix (to regain a "local identity" according to the then regional manager Brian James) this produced several duplicates once more though not in adjacent areas.  

 

The traditional and appropriate number 1 was restored to the Lands End - Penzance route but was also in use for the frequent Plymouth - Saltash service for example.  93 remains in use as it has done throughout a long history for the Plymouth - Kingsbridge - Dartmouth route while in north Devon the 300-series is still used having been adopted by the County Council to identify revenue-supported services.  Commercial services in that area use single or double-digit numbers so the commercial Ilfracombe - Barnstaple main road route is the 21 while the revenue-supported back-road route via Muddiford is the 301.  Somerset County Council still has some supported Minehead area routes numbered in the 600-series where they meet Devon-supported route 398 from Tiverton and used to also encounter the recently-withdrawn 300 over the Exmoor coast to Lynton and Ilfracombe.

[HillsideDepot]

The allocation of routes to depots can lead to some geo-political problems, Torpoint has long been part of the Devon Division, but of course is firmly in Cornwall. So when earlier this year First, with its newly localised livery, painted one of the Torpoint allocation and added huge "DEVON" fleet names one can imagine the reaction in its home town! Suffice to say it was rapidly removed to Devon routes until it could be modified to carry "TORPOINT" names.

 

Far from Cornwall in the OP I grew up with Western National FLFs, by then carrying "Bristol" fleet names, on Chippenham town routes. From Lands End to Wiltshire, and previously Stroud, WNOC once covered a huge area, but the name Western National conjures up all sorts of happy holiday memories for me, just as Great Western does. 

[Gwiwer]

The allocation of routes to depots can lead to some geo-political problems, Torpoint has long been part of the Devon Division, but of course is firmly in Cornwall. So when earlier this year First, with its newly localised livery, painted one of the Torpoint allocation and added huge "DEVON" fleet names one can imagine the reaction in its home town! Suffice to say it was rapidly removed to Devon routes until it could be modified to carry "TORPOINT" names.

 

Far from Cornwall in the OP I grew up with Western National FLFs, by then carrying "Bristol" fleet names, on Chippenham town routes. From Lands End to Wiltshire, and previously Stroud, WNOC once covered a huge area, but the name Western National conjures up all sorts of happy holiday memories for me, just as Great Western does. 

 

 

Not to mention the different rates of pay which can be offered at differing locations.  I'm not sure what Torpoint men were on but we in the west of Cornwall were on rather less than our workmates in Devon doing the same job on the same vehicles.  The usual reason of "we can't afford it - Cornwall doesn't pay" never cut much ice.  To this day I have next to worthless Farce Group shares which were distributed one year "in lieu of a pay rise we can't afford but in expectation they will offer dividends into the future".  I currently get around £7 a year which my bank pockets as commission for converting them into Aussie Dollars.

[islandtraction]

Keith, lovely photos. Do you have any further photos in far western Cornwall, or perhaps in and around St Ives or Falmouth?

Yes Ben, I'll post some although they are all around 1971/72 and vehicle wise are mainly FLF Lodekkas and LH or SUL4A buses around Penzance and Camborne. I'll also post some pics of my own Island Traction fictitious Tilling fleet showing the specific models that you could use as WN vehicles. The "comprehensive" reply addressing all the other points also made since my posting will be below!

 

Keith

[islandtraction]

I've attached below pics from my own bus fleet which are those suitable as WN prototypes in Cornwall during the 1960s, plus just a couple I took of real WN vehicles around 1972. Hopefully I haven't gone OTT (as it were - some may see the connection?) with these. I can send more via personal email on request, which is probably more suitable than monopolising this post.

A couple of points Gwiwer made. There was the initial major route renumbering upon the SN/WN "merger" in 1968, but then again around 1971? I seem to recollect many in the Newquay and St Austell areas got new numbers? This obsession with route numbers seemed to be an ongoing process, and continued throughout culminating as Gwiwer says, in the reversion to many of the original WN numbers by dropping the 500 prefix.

I seldom got back to Cornwall during the remainder of the 1970/80s but was shocked by the very evident decline in standards of vehicle presentation starting from the early days of the NBC "livery", through "Cornish Fairways" that period of local branding with which the NBC became fixated, through to "Cornwall Busways", by which time the "big bus" fleet in Cornwall had been reduced to a mobile scrapyard as crudely converted Mercedes vans took over as "mini" buses. It's no wonder the loathsome First group felt comfortable moving in and maintaining the same "standards".

Anyhow the pictures. Left to Right the double deckers are:

1. Bristol KS lowbridge converted from an EFE RT.

2. Bristol KSW highbridge (Buskits resin kit) ONLY used by WN as Lowbridge - model still never been issued and is very much an outstanding.

3. Bristol LD Lodekka (BT Models), WN had loads in all configurations, long and short grilles, open and closed platforms.

4. Bristol FS Lodekka (OOC) WN had 2, 1966/67, the former was at Falmouth.

5. Bristol FLF Lodekka (EFE) WN had loads in both grille configurations.

 

The single deckers:

1. Bristol LWL (Little Bus Company - LBC) resin kit. Still available I think.

2. Bristol LL rebuild from Royal Blue coach. Fanfare Models resin kit - no longer available.

3. Bristol LS standard service bus (EFE) again WN had loads of these.

4. Bristol MW standard service bus, WN only had about 35 new ones, but Truro had a fair sized allocation at the time I was there. Model is a Buskits resin kit, but BT Models are about to issue it onto the
     market as a "diecast" speaking generically - actually they're plastic!

5. Bristol SUL4A service bus. WN had almost all of those built! Seen throughout their territory except for North Cornwall where LS types predominated, excepting 1x SUS and an SUL coach at Delabole.

6. Bristol SUL4A coach quite common in Cornwall. LBC kit - may still be available.

7. Bristol LH ECW service bus. These started to be introduced in this "flat front" style from about 1968.

Other single deck pics:

For Gwiwer this! My conversions of the SUL4A bus to a "COD" style SUS4A, and SUL4A coach to the earlier simpler style with wing motif on the front.

Just a couple of prototype vehicle shots around Penzance (some in Wherrytown works) and Camborne, and I think thats quite enough from me for now! Hope these are of interest,

 

Keith



 

[Ben04uk]

Keith, a very comprehensive post! Interested to see all your buses in Royal Blue livery - all those on my layout are in Green or Cream and Green - when did these liveries disappear and the Royal Blue take over or did they run concurrently? 

[TheWeatheringMan]

Keith, a very comprehensive post! Interested to see all your buses in Royal Blue livery - all those on my layout are in Green or Cream and Green - when did these liveries disappear and the Royal Blue take over or did they run concurrently?

 

Hi,

????????????????????????????????????

 

'Island Traction' is an exceptionally well modelled fictitious fleet.

The livery looks nothing like 'Royal Blue' blue from the photographs.

 

It is indeed a real pleasure to see the models.

 

Regards

[Ben04uk]

Ok, sorry - for the avoidance of doubt - I meant the blue and white livery in your fictitious fleet (apologies if this is not called 'Royal Blue' livery) as opposed to the green livery in all the photographs.

[islandtraction]

Yes Ben, as noted Island Traction is my fictitious setup, this enables me to work outside the confines of modelling a "real" operator, so I can have any Bristol ECW types as they're all favourites! Thanks for the kind comments btw.

Only the former Balfour Beatty companies Midland General/Notts & Derby (with blue), and the former Red & White owned Cheltenham District (cherry red) managed to avoid Tilling red or green liveries. The Scottish Bus Group companies on the other hand were able to have Bristols in their own glorious liveries - some more so than others. Sadly they operated few types other than Lodekkas, a couple LS buses and coaches and RE's here and there. I've basically copied Midland General's blue scheme with the exception of mine having ivory roofs, my excuse? As stipulated by the Island Bailiwick! 

Western National remained green for most of the NBC period up to the end pretty much when "Cornwall Buses" became the new brainwave branding and all the Hoppa minibuses became blue liveried with red and yellow stripes. I think the Plymouth based and East Cornwall buses remained green? The later privatised standard blue and cream livery was a lot nicer in my opinion, with more subtle red striping and fleetnames. Shame it was replaced with First's insipid styles, and a constant cascade of scrapyard wrecks from around the country. A shameful episode that was. I wonder are things any better now?

Moving on... My accompanying model railway is likewise independently minded... its a frugal BR affair at present using a W&M railbus a black class 04 Drewry and a class 14 teddy bear. Period steam models are an M7 and a T9, beautiful locos but both disappointing pullers so with an uncertain future.... I'd love an O2 which Kernow are about to launch, but wonder if being an 0-4-4 that too might suffer from what seem to be inherent problems of weight distribution such as with the M7? An AC cars railbus would also be nice and perhaps a Cravens 105 DMU or a Thumper for the busier passenger work???

The layout itself is an end to end shelf type setup around 2 walls. There's nothing really worth seeing at the moment, only a lot of woodworking in progress, and a line of half ballasted track, but I'll post elsewhere as things progress. Some buses will feature, but I don't want to subsume the layout by overdoing this aspect.

 

Keith

[TheWeatheringMan]

Yes Ben, as noted Island Traction is my fictitious setup, this enables me to work outside the confines of modelling a "real" operator, so I can have any Bristol ECW types as they're all favourites! Thanks for the kind comments btw.

 

Only the former Balfour Beatty companies Midland General/Notts & Derby (with blue), and the former Red & White owned Cheltenham District (cherry red) managed to avoid Tilling red or green liveries. The Scottish Bus Group companies on the other hand were able to have Bristols in their own glorious liveries - some more so than others. Sadly they operated few types other than Lodekkas, a couple LS buses and coaches and RE's here and there. I've basically copied Midland General's blue scheme with the exception of mine having ivory roofs, my excuse? As stipulated by the Island Bailiwick! 

 

Western National remained green for most of the NBC period up to the end pretty much when "Cornwall Buses" became the new brainwave branding and all the Hoppa minibuses became blue liveried with red and yellow stripes. I think the Plymouth based and East Cornwall buses remained green? The later privatised standard blue and cream livery was a lot nicer in my opinion, with more subtle red striping and fleetnames. Shame it was replaced with First's insipid styles, and a constant cascade of scrapyard wrecks from around the country. A shameful episode that was. I wonder are things any better now?

 

Moving on... My accompanying model railway is likewise independently minded... its a frugal BR affair at present using a W&M railbus a black class 04 Drewry and a class 14 teddy bear. Period steam models are an M7 and a T9, beautiful locos but both disappointing pullers so with an uncertain future.... I'd love an O2 which Kernow are about to launch, but wonder if being an 0-4-4 that too might suffer from what seem to be inherent problems of weight distribution such as with the M7? An AC cars railbus would also be nice and perhaps a Cravens 105 DMU or a Thumper for the busier passenger work???

 

The layout itself is an end to end shelf type setup around 2 walls. There's nothing really worth seeing at the moment, only a lot of woodworking in progress, and a line of half ballasted track, but I'll post elsewhere as things progress. Some buses will feature, but I don't want to subsume the layout by overdoing this aspect.

 

Keith

 

Hi,

Your models really are superb.

Not sure if you will know this but Midland General / Notts and Derby Traction blue actually passed into the National Bus Company corporate colour catalogue as NBC Light Blue and was used additionally by Jones of Aberbeeg in NBC style. Interestingly East Yorkshire MS indigo blue became NBC Dark Blue in the same way and was used by EYMS, but unfortunatly only for a much shorter period.

 

There was another 'Tilling' company that used something other than Tilling Red or Green.

This was South Midland Motor Services of Oxford - also an ex Red and White Group company, which used a deep brownish maroon called 'Panhard Red'. The SMMS livery was also applied to several Thames Valley Traction Co. vehicles used on express services but lettered 'Thames Valley' rather than 'South Midland'

SMMS was of course placed under the wing of neighbour TV after the BTC takeover of the Red and White group, although SMMS remained a separate legal entity until the formation of the NBC.

Soon after the logical move was made of transfering the SMMS fleet to City of Oxford Motor Services, a former BET company, and giving birth to the 'Oxford SouthMidland' fleetname. SMMS became dormant and operated nothing for a couple of years after which it began operating again under the new name of 'National Travel (Midlands) with its head office at Digbeth Coach Station, Birmingham.

Under the same NBC scheme Thames Valley Traction of Reading was amalgamated with the ex BET Aldershot and District to become the 'Thames Valley and Aldershot Omnibus Co.' which used the damm silly 'Alder Valley' fleetname and after several dxperiments that saw a Bristol Lodekka painted half Tilling Red and half Aldershot light green (yes it really happened and looked blo*dy auful)settled on a deep red known by the Alder Valley painters as 'Ribble Red' - which it was not - but there lies another convoluted story.

 

Hope that of interest.

 

Regards

 

 

 

Edit:

 

There was of course another shade of blue used in 'corporate' NBC style for a few years, this being the colour formerly used by Sunderland District Omnibus Co. (part of the 'Northern ' group) - this was about half way between EYMS indigo and MG/N&D blues.

 

Edit to edit:

 

One could split hairs over Royal Blue Services livery as being 'non Tilling' but of course the rolling stock was owned by Western & Southern Nationals !.

 

Regards

[pH]

The Scottish Bus Group companies on the other hand were able to have Bristols in their own glorious liveries - some more so than others. Sadly they operated few types other than Lodekkas, a couple LS buses and coaches and RE's here and there.

 

What about the (in)famous VRs? Though they did get rid of them pretty quickly, once they found someone to offload them to. Several years after that exchange, I got to know an ex-Eastern National mechanic who was still bemoaning the loss of their 'Fluffs'.

 

Talking about Scottish buses and Cornwall, in 2008 I was very surprised to see a single decker in the Scilly Isles with the registration "VS xxxx", which is a pre-1959 Greenock registration. I have a picture somewhere, which I could dig out if anyone's interested.

[TheWeatheringMan]

What about the (in)famous VRs? Though they did get rid of them pretty quickly, once they found someone to offload them to. Several years after that exchange, I got to know an ex-Eastern National mechanic who was still bemoaning the loss of their 'Fluffs'.

 

Talking about Scottish buses and Cornwall, in 2008 I was very surprised to see a single decker in the Scilly Isles with the registration "VS xxxx", which is a pre-1959 Greenock registration. I have a picture somewhere, which I could dig out if anyone's interested.

Hi,

On behalf of many others I suspect - yes please indeed do !!

Regards