First Layout - Should I Go for DCC?

[Pint of Pedigree]

I have been contemplating building a layout for the last 10 years or so, but while other priorities got in the way, I have spent the time acquiring a lot of stock, locos and plain track. I have now started on the layout and am planning a 17'6" x 9'0" double track oval, with up and down goods loops, a station and a goods yard on one of the long sides and a fiddle yard on the other, although I haven't decided on the exact arrangement yet. Having read up on the advantages of live frog points, I intended to use these with polarity switching (except in the fiddle yard where I already have enough standard Hornby points).

 

I have previously disregarded DCC because of the difficulty of converting the older locos and the need to buy the decoders and controller before getting anything running, whereas I already have analogue controllers and (as it seemed at first) just needed to connect them up, add some wires and the layout was up and running. However, I am only just now appreciating that with track feeds; isolating breaks; polarity switching and signalling circuits and the cost of the switches and wire, wiring the layout for analogue working will not be easy or cheap. I am no electrician, but have read up on the subject and while I think I can do it, it will be long and complicated and probably quite expensive. So before becoming committed too far, I thought it was worthwhile reconsidering DCC and ask advice from the people who know, hence this post.

 

My loco roster is as follows and while some are DCC ready most aren't, being older Hornby and Bachmann types, although unused (apart from running-in) since purchase:

 

Bachmann split chassis: 1 x Class A4 4-6-2; 1 x Class J39 0-6-0; 2 x Class J72 0-6-0s; 1 x Class V1 2-6-2; 1 x Class V2 2-6-2

Bachmann DCC ready: 1 x Class K3 2-6-0; 1 x Class O4 2-8-0; 1 x Class 108 3 car DMU.

Hornby loco drive: 1 x Class B12 4-6-0; 1 x Class J52 0-6-0; 1 x Class N2 0-6-2; 1 x Stanier 2-8-0; 1 x Stanier Duchess class 4-6-2

Hornby tender drive: 1 x Class A3 4-6-2; 1 x Class B17 4-6-0; 1 x Class D49 4-4-0 (second hand);

Lima: 1 x Class J50 0-6-0

 

My questions:

 

1 - Locos

 

Split chassis: How difficult will these be to convert to DCC? I saw an article in the Hornby magazine recently about converting the J39 with the chip in the tender, so would this be applicable to all split chassis types? Where would you put the chip in the J72s as these are small and cramped inside?

Hornby loco and tender drives: I presume the chips all have to be soldered into the motor wiring, but each loco seems to be wired differently, so how is it done?

Lima: Can the J50 be converted at all? I spent a lot of time detailing the body, so I would like to use it if possible.

 

Could I reasonably be able to tackle the work myself, starting from a low skill base? If I had to pay for professional conversions, then I think the cost would kill the idea at the start.

Are the standard Hornby/Bachmann chips at £10-£12 suitable, or would I need to buy more expensive ones?

Can you test the results without already having bought all the DCC equipment first?

 

2 - Track

 

Can I use the Hornby dead frog points I already have and the Peco live frog points I intended to buy as they are, or do they have to be modified? I have seen references to the need to make points "DCC friendly" by altering the wiring and it sounds complicated and potentially affecting the warranty.

What is the purpose of DCC point motor controllers? They seem quite expensive compared with an analogue switch. Are they essential, or can DCC track be combined with analogue points and signalling?

 

3 - Overall

 

Is DCC worth investing in for a home layout which only I will use? Is it more appropriate for larger layouts with multiple users?

How do the costs compare? Is the saving in wiring and switches more than made up by the more expensive controllers and chips? Is DCC more to save time and complexity, rather than costs?

 

Sorry if these questions are rather long and detailed, but as this is probably the only layout I will build, I want to be sure at the start that I am heading in the right direction.

 

Many thanks.

 

Pint of Pedigree

[Danemouth]

I'll just answer the last question if I may.

 

My first layout, a home layout (about to be scrapped) is DCC using a NCE Powercab. I would not consider anything else as:

• The wiring is much simpler; no section switches etc.
  
• You can have two locos parked on the same piece of track,
  
• Sound locos is that rings your bell,
  
• I operate my points and turntable via DCC so my handset drives the whole show and with the macro facilities of my handset I can set routes.
  

I have purchased all new stock over the past four years and therefore selected DCC Ready or DCC Fitted locos only.

 

I use Peco Electrofrog points with a Hex Frog Juicer - other threads have indicated no problems with Hornby points.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[RedgateModels]

The J39 can be done with decoder in the body - a TCS-M1 just fits

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/897-Bachmann-j39-split-chassis/

 

You may want to pass on the job of fitting decoders to your more challenging locos to me someone with experience in this matter (other DCC loco decoder fitters are available)

 

Don't know where you are in the world, but I would recommend that you have a go with DCC before deciding. Personally I wouldn't use anything else.

[Blacque Jacque]

Fitting DCC decoders is within your abilities if you can disassemble & reassmble the loco & solder small wires neatly to a reasonable standard. Split chassis locos are trickier, but not impossible, you just have to be concious of what conducts electricity as most of the internals will. The hard part is usually isolating the motor connections in order to place the decoder in between.

 

Cheap decoders will work, higher prices generally get you one or more of the following; better performance, additional functions, smaller size & more advanced programming features.

 

The only testing you will be able to do before buying a proper controller is;

Check for short circuits (you will need a multimeter of some kind)

With *some* decoders, they will run on a DC powered track, but this is not a standard feature of all types.

As a minimum, once decoders are fitted, you will need to change the address of each decoder, otherwise they will all be address 3 & respond to the operator at the same time.

 

Is DCC worthwhile for home use?

For me, certainly, but it isn't for everyone.

Given the size of your proposed layout, it would be simpler to use DCC from the outset imho, although not by a huge margin.

 

DCC offers lots of nice features such as lighting, sound, prototypical acceleration & deceleration, stopping at red signals & many more things all in addition to it's simplest trick- running more than one loco on the same piece of track with independent control of each.

 

The purpose of DCC point motor controllers is just that, control of points via the DCC system. It is definitely not an essential, unless you need computerised operation of the layout. You can use manual control of points and signals if you wish.

 

The term "DCC friendly" is a bit misleading. It should really be "electric powered model railway friendly" The problems associated with points will affect operation regardless of whether you run DCC or DC. Dead frog points shouldn't suffer from shorts, but all points need polarity control in some form, electrofrog points offer better running (especially for shorter locos) as power is applied to the wheels over almost the whole point with only very small isolated gaps.

[edcayton]

As you say that you already have a considerable of non-dcc stock and controllers I would suggest caution. The dcc market is relatively new and there are compatibility issues. At least one system has gone to the wall and, sure as eggs,whatever system I went for would be next. Get yourself to as many exhibitions as you can, look at manufacturer's displays and go to shop open days and the like where you can compare different systems.

 

In your position I'd be inclined to start small, maybe with a branch line or shunting yard etc, which I could run almost as a "stand alone" layout. Indeed, before you start on a layout as ambitious as the one you describe I think a smaller layout to test many techniques would be a good idea.

 

Ed

[melmerby]

Split chassis locos are not as difficult as some make out.

As long as you can completely isolate the motor and find somewhere to put the decoder it is really no more of a problem than solid chassis locos.

 

I have converted a Mainline "Manor". The only problem was space in the boiler for the decoder which I provided by filing a flat on top of the chassis halves.The red and black wires were then connected to the chassis halves and the orange and grey to the motor, making sure everything is insulated to avoid shorts.

I have also converted a Hornby 0-6-0T chassis with the old XT60 motor (insulate both brushes), the main problem with this is the current consumption, which is higher than modern locos so needs a beefier decoder.

 

There really is no limit to what locos can be DCC converted, with a little thought/patience.

 

Keith

[Oldddudders]

The decision on whether or not to go DCC is not to be taken lightly, 'tis true - but almost more important is the choice of DCC system. DCC can be run by a wide range of boxes, handsets, consoles and - with a bit ingenuity - from your modern cellphone. I've used DCC since 1997, and wouldn't contemplate DC control now, but you really need to check out all the options to find a system that suits you and your layout.

[Nigelcliffe]

. The dcc market is relatively new and there are compatibility issues

 

 

DCC dates from 1993, how old would you like it to be before it ceases to be new?

Which compatibility issues were you thinking about ? Most of the ones I see are selecting the wrong devices; just as you can't use a Z-gauge motor for an O scale loco.

 

Nigel

 

[phil-b259]

DCC dates from 1993, how old would you like it to be before it ceases to be new?

Which compatibility issues were you thinking about ? Most of the ones I see are selecting the wrong devices; just as you can't use a Z-gauge motor for an O scale loco.

 

Nigel

 

Given that conventional DC control (in various forms) has been arond since just before WW2, I think it would be fair to say DCC is a relativly new method of control. Equally I would point out how much things like mobile phones, computers, ect have changed since 1993 and I can well understand those who might be wary of how quickly things might develop in the future. In general though terms I would expect that as we go forward decoders will become smaller, less power hungry, generate less heat and offer improved functionality. Backwards compatability however will, as with all computing devices depend on manufacturers continuing to agree on the same set of standards and be willing to maintain backwards compatability in any new software that emerges.

 

[Suzie]

It is often quicker to wire a decoder into an old Lima loco than it is to get the body off of a new loco so that you can plug in a decoder. I have a split chassis loco but have not fitted a decoder because I have never felt the need to run it, so you might want to look at your loco list and think if you might want to retire some.

 

You can use all points as they come out of the box, and the wiring for all points is easier for DCC than it is for DC, but as with DC there is improvement to be had by providing a frog switch, and that is pretty much all the conversion really is - bonding the bits that don't need switching and connecting the switch.

 

I think that you have seen the real boon of DCC, there is no control panel and a big saving in wiring and switchgear. Set up routes on your DCC command station and you have the benefit of diode matrix routing without all the wiring.

[250BOB]

You are at the perfect stage to go DCC, I was where you are 6 yrs ago, and now have a layout that sounds exactly like you are planning, see the link at the bottom of this reply.

I had the same decisions as you to make re locos, points etc., I ran the whole layout with a complete mix of points, and slowly converted all to peco electro frog over the 6yrs.

I had Ian at Redgate Models do my split chassis decoder for me, otherwise, everything else is within my capabilities. And I'm no expert.

Go DCC from the outset, you only have to see the way the market/hobby has gone over the last 20yrs. The difficult choice is converting from dc to DCC once you have a layout. DCC is the future, and it absolutely the perfect time for you to go in that direction too. You will not regret it.

I have noticed going to exhibitions, that the percentage of dcc operated layout grows year on year, and its a big percentage nowadays, I think a real direction indicator.

The problem perhaps comes when you have too many locos to convert, that is a real cost stumbling block, but with the stud you have, it shouldnt perhaps pose too big an issue at this stage.

Finally.....without the help from the good folk on this forum, I would have found it very difficult or at least very slow, to progress with DCC. So ask all the questions you want, and I'm sure you will get all the answers you are looking for......RMweb has been a lifesaver for me.

Bob

[Blacque Jacque]

The best advice at this stage would be to try a system for yourself & see what it offers you "first hand", preferably systems from more than one manufacturer.

 

If after that, you decide that DCC is the way forward for you, the next difficult decision is which manufacturer ? Personally I'd say, stick to an established brand. They tend to have a mature product range (as stated previously, DCC is a relatively young concept), better support and larger user bases of which to ask for help. Lenz is probably the best known of the European big guns & you will see many recommendations for them and with good reason.

 

 

You will find supporters of both types on here staunchly defending their chosen system, I'm pro-DCC as can be seen from my previous post, but I have no aversion to DC, in some situations it is still a better choice. For me, that means a test track with a shuttle for running in & testing.

 

The other factor is cost. DCC is more expensive, no question. Even cheap decoders are going to add ~£15 per loco, plus the cost of the basic control unit. Then when you factor in accessory decoders, block detection, signalling, computer control and so on, the cost goes ever upwards.

 

For DC, there is still a cost involved, raw materials, wire, switches, & parts to build your control panel all add up, but the real killer is time. Even small DC layouts need several isolated sections, becoming more complex as the size increases. How much is your time worth to you ?

 

For DCC even a fairly large layout can get away with just a few isolated sections (even none is some cases). This doesn't hold true for all DCC layouts though. It will need to be sectioned for block detection, braking control & some automated functions, but in general it doesn't require as many sections as a DC layout, not does it require as much wiring, although large layouts still need quite a bit.

[Pint of Pedigree]

Having realised the complexity of the wiring I will need to create the layout I am plannning, and after much consideration, I have decided to go with DCC.  In principle, DC is an old-tech system so it does not seem sensible to build a new layout using a method that has no more future development.  I use computers all the time, so ultimately I like the idea of using a computer to run the layout.

 

So - what system to choose?  On cost grounds Bachmann Dynamis or Hornby Elite seem to offer a reasonable way in, but the Hornby Elite seems better specified and doesn't need the Pro Box upgrade to add extra funcionality.  The Elite is also compatible with Lenz equipment.  Can anyone advise me as to whether the Elite is worth having please, or is there any advantage in paying extra to buy Lenz, Digitrax or NCE?

 

Thanks.

 

Pint of Pedigree

[Nigelcliffe]

Digitrax and NCE have options which are cheaper than an Elite and have fewer poor design features than the Elite. Elite compatibility with Lenz Xpressnet (and thus many software packages) isn't totally reliable.

 

Hornby have their own computer software. If they release the promised hardware (sensors) it may prove capable of computer layout operation. I'd never buy technology from any vendor on a broucherware promise.

 

Bachmann have no computer option.

 

Digitrax, Lenz and NCE have established working computer options with lots of software options, both free (public domain) and paid for.

 

 

Nigel

[John K]

Dear Pint

My view for what it's worth is that if you can programme a set-top TV box or work a current DVD recorder you should choose DCC.

If you are baffled by any form of computer then I suggest that you stick to analogue control.

DCC is no longer 'New technology'.

Best,

John

[Shedman5]

I would suggest you go and try to get your hands on a few controllers and see which ones feel most comfortable and if possible have a play before you make your decision.

 

As regards going DCC I think its the right one for the reasons given by other posters.

 

Hope it all goes well!

[250BOB]

I like to compare DC and DCC with VHS tapes and DVD's.

 

We are seeing the end of DC like we saw the end of VHS tapes, although it will take some years to fade out. And you will always get some diehards.

 

Go DCC.....you won't regret it.!!!

[84A]

 

DCC dates from 1993, how old would you like it to be before it ceases to be new?

Which compatibility issues were you thinking about ? Most of the ones I see are selecting the wrong devices; just as you can't use a Z-gauge motor for an O scale loco.

 

Nigel

 

I am sure that Zero 1 came before 1993?

[84A]

I like to compare DC and DCC with VHS tapes and DVD's.

 

We are seeing the end of DC like we saw the end of VHS tapes, although it will take some years to fade out. And you will always get some diehards.

 

Go DCC.....you won't regret it.!!!

 

Each to their own I guess, but I wouldn't be so sure that DC is coming to an end in the same vein as video tapes. I'm 24, and have no plans to convert to DCC as I believe that the functions I require can be achieved in DC much more efficiently. I'm afraid nothing beats the simplicity of buying any model, putting it on a piece of track, turning the controller on and away you go.

[Neal Ball]

Interesting debate and some interesting thoughts. Ages ago, with some mixed aged stock, I knew I wanted to go DCC so part-ex everything into Rails of Sheffield. My soldering is ok, but I didnt fancy tring to convert a split chasis.

 

I would urge you to have a go with as many systems before you buy. Or buy a starter system to get a feel of how DCC works. I started with the Dynamis, but soon tired of the way it works and need to put it onto eBay!

 

As for decoder, it will also come down to personal pref. they all pretty much have enough features to get going.

 

Get yourself into a good shop, such as the enine shed at Ford / Gaugemaster, where you can play with controllers. I would also recommend the two part dvd with Nigel Burkin(?) advertised in brm. (Happy customer of both, no connection etc.)

 

Good luck! Enjoy

[Removed a/c]

Each to their own I guess, but I wouldn't be so sure that DC is coming to an end in the same vein as video tapes. I'm 24, and have no plans to convert to DCC as I believe that the functions I require can be achieved in DC much more efficiently. I'm afraid nothing beats the simplicity of buying any model, putting it on a piece of track, turning the controller on and away you go.

You can do that with DCC and plus side is that without any extra wiring when you add your new loco the others on the layout won't go whizzing about as well. 

[250BOB]

Each to their own I guess, but I wouldn't be so sure that DC is coming to an end in the same vein as video tapes. I'm 24, and have no plans to convert to DCC as I believe that the functions I require can be achieved in DC much more efficiently. I'm afraid nothing beats the simplicity of buying any model, putting it on a piece of track, turning the controller on and away you go.

 

Hi 84A,

And some people wont ever convert to DCC........6 years ago in my late fifties I decided to go DCC after wrestling with the decision for 12 months.  

 

And if you are happy with DC and does everything that you want...then thats fine, stick with it..

 

All I am saying is.....the future is DCC....perhaps I was wrong to say are we seeing the end of DC the same as VHS tapes.  Of course they are still both going to be around for a good many years yet.

 

BUT.......it does get very much more difficult to buy VHS tapes and VHS tape recorders today.....technology has moved on to DVDs and other "digital" technology.

 

Its going to be the same for DCC in the years ahead, we will see a decline in DC in the coming years.

 

I am no techy......I'm 64 for heavens sake....I.T. was not on the syllabus when I was at school.

 

If you go to exhibitions, have a look at how many layouts are DCC.....and remember there were virtually non 10 years ago.

 

Bob.

 

PS....I have a pal who has 2 DC layouts at home, and he is adamant he will not convert to DCC......but over the last 12 months he has been putting in the odd decoder  in a few of his locos, and taking them to mine and other pals layouts who are DCC and running them there.

 

Watch this space.......I'll give him another year or so and I bet he will be re wiring for DCC.

[melmerby]

Hi 84A,

And some people wont ever convert to DCC........6 years ago in my late fifties I decided to go DCC after wrestling with the decision for 12 months.  

 

And if you are happy with DC and does everything that you want...then thats fine, stick with it..

 

6 years ago I decided to go DCC and I was in my early 60s, never looked back.

 

 

I am no techy......I'm 64 for heavens sake....I.T. was not on the syllabus when I was at school.

I'm older than you and I would consider myself a techy, age is no barrier.

 

It did help if you worked in a technology rich environment, which I did. We were early adopters of computers, when storage was huge floppy disks, with miniscule capacity.

There were cries of joy when the first "massive" hard drive arrived, the size of small filing cabinet and 10Mb capacity!

 

Keith

[Sunnysa]

There are those that want to stick with DC ( shudder)  and that is  absolutely fine. If that floats your boat, stick with it.

 

 I turn 72 in 3 weeks, have been in this great hobby 36 1/2 yrs. The last 17 1/2 yrs op DCC. Woud not thave it any other way.

 

 Every thing on my 6mx3m layout is controlled via DCC including points (turnouts) and even some building lights.

 

 Prio to DCC I became very good at wiring layouts for multipull loco/train operation but suddenly realised there had to be a better way. There was, DCC.

 

 In fact if I had not discovered DCC I would have given model railways away. Now i will take it when I meet my maker.

 

Over the yrs I have heard DC stalwarts say, they can do anything with DC that can be done with DCC.

 

 Let me tell you, . there is so many thing possible with DCC that DC can/could not ever do.

 

 I have heard, my layout is not big enough for DCC or I don't have enough locos to warrant DCC.

 

 The size of layout is totally imiterial and it is not the ammout of locos but what can be done with each individual loco and in turn train.

 

 I have heard DCC is to complicated. DCC can be as simple or complicated as you want to make it.

 

 It is far easier to learn to op a new DCC layout than a DC cab/block controlled layout.

 

The  large model railway club I once belonged to (3 yr ago) was dead against DCC. Now, I believe, well over 60% of members now own/run DCC.

 

 This is not a DCC versus DC thing. It is just my thoughts on the matter.

 

 BTW, I am no techy by any means but I can wield a soldering iron and solder wires together.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

All I am saying is.....the future is DCC....perhaps I was wrong to say are we seeing the end of DC the same as VHS tapes.  Of course they are still both going to be around for a good many years yet.

 

BUT.......it does get very much more difficult to buy VHS tapes and VHS tape recorders today.....technology has moved on to DVDs and other "digital" technology.

 

Its going to be the same for DCC in the years ahead, we will see a decline in DC in the coming years.

 

I'd suggest "now" is DCC.  But, like the DVD which is already in decline, DCC will be overtaken eventually by another technology.  

 

As to what ?  My guess is that it will be wireless, small batteries/power stores in locos, no need to have any pickup to the loco.   There are some people selling such systems (at least two UK manufacturers and several US ones), so the next stage is to consolidate the technology and draw out a standard that the model industry will adhere to.  As to how long to wait for such a thing; if "Digital control over rails" (aka DCC) is anything to go by, it took fifteen years from the first commercial systems to establish the DCC standard, then another ten before many modellers took it as serious (and about fifteen in the UK).   Total 25 to 30 years !   I think this change will be quicker, but still many years, probably more than a decade.

 

 

- Nigel