Kirkcaldy area

[asarnot]

Thanks for that explanation Graham. That clears things up nicely. Anyway, I suppose that due to its position and construction, it would not have been convenient to bracket a bay starter from the main platform starter, especially if the bay was not intensively used before the advent of the dmus.

[beast66606]

Anyway like you I would somehow have expected a bay used by passenger trains to have a "proper" outlet signal, but it seems that wasn't always the case.

 

The facing points would need to be locked, that's the main issue - or clipped and padlocked. Local instructions may relax that to allow a departure at say 5mph with no lock.

 

Be careful of principles - they are what is current at the time of publication, that does not mean that every installation would follow them, Kirkcaldy (I imagine) was signalled long before 1949 and so it would not necessarily follow the 1949 way of doing things (and even things done in 1949 would not necessarily follow them either!)

[Graham R]

Thinking about it a bit more, I suppose a ground signal makes sense where there's a section signal in advance. If a running signal was used, a driver might assume he had a clear road and, if distracted, might pass a section signal at danger. A ground signal gives authority only to the next signal and the driver must be prepared to stop at any obstacle, so it's an effective reminder to check the section signal.

[Lochty no more]

Stand by your beds - more photo`s of Kirkcaldy than you can shake a stick at ( courtesy of my friend Pete Westwater )

more to follow!

[keefer]

crivvens jings and help ma boab! the only thing wrong with that post lochty, is i can only like it once!

 

claytons, all types of rats, 47 on an early freightliner, pristine double-heading 26s, fife hygenic bedding co. - this has to be one of my top favourite posts ever.

pete has excelled himself, even in respect of everything he's supplied before and thank you too lochty for posting them.

 

notice the 4-in-a-block flats in the background - there's tons of them still around kirkcaldy and they are really canny flats, but those shown were bellfield crescent which had over the years gained a real reputation (as have other streets in kdy). the solution to a problem which wouldn't go away? bulldoze the perfectly good houses and sell the land off to development (i.e. expensive shoe-boxes)

excuse the rant, but fife council seems to have a particular long-term tolerance for anti-social tenants, in that they will be moved, re-housed, left alone etc. while the honest folk who just want a quiet life are left to put up with it or move on

 

p.s. how fast was that 05 going? hahaha

[beast66606]

Thinking about it a bit more, I suppose a ground signal makes sense where there's a section signal in advance. If a running signal was used, a driver might assume he had a clear road and, if distracted, might pass a section signal at danger. A ground signal gives authority only to the next signal and the driver must be prepared to stop at any obstacle, so it's an effective reminder to check the section signal.

 

A ground signal gives authority as far as the line is clear only, not to the next signal.

 

There are plenty of examples where main arms were used as bay starters, that's not the reason.

[Lochty no more]

More Kirkcaldy pics:

not certain that this photo is Kirkcaldy

Just realized the first photo is not Kirkcaldy either it`s just outside Kennoway goods station on the Lochty line, with the distinctive iron age fort of maidens castle in the background.

All the photo`s are courtesy of Pete Westwater, I have another 4 photo`s which wont load for some reason - I will keep working on it.

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

Good old Pete! Can always be relied on for lots of good photos. His 8mm films have also been used in a few video presentations of this area. The photo of the Y9 is I think just outside Dunfermline Upper. 68101 was the Station Pilot there and was the only Y9 to have the vacuum brake fitted (and presumably the little wooden tender was piped. Which brings me back neatly to Kirkcaldy. The station pilot there in the 50s was a J88 which was not fitted. The Dunfermline Upper pilot would have more carriage sorting to do which is why I suppose that it was considered worthwhile doing it but I can remember seeing Kirkcaldy's J88 put a parcels van (LMS 6 wheel stove) on the rear of an Edinburgh train and at other times remove fitted vans from the end of through trains. I know that the brakes can be pinned back but I always thought that taking them on and off was quite time consuming. I wonder why Kirkcaldy Station did not rate a fitted pilot.Pre war I believe (I am not that old!)one of the GNofS 0-4-4 tanks was used here.

Picturing some of these movements in my mind reminded me of something. No one has yet mentioned the "double stop". I do not know about loco hauled trains in diesel days but in the 50s/early60s some of the Pacific hauled Aberdeen trains were fairly long. The up platform, particularly when the entry to the bay was still there, was quite short. Trains pulled up with the loco at the starter and on occaision several coaches were not yet into the platform. I don't know what signalling was used but the loco then moved forward until this end portion was in the platform and stopped again.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Graham R]

Wow, a Clan at Sinclairtown. Did Clans often appear on the Edinburgh-Dundee line?

[asarnot]

This topic is really developing! Thanks to Graham and Keefer for kicking it off. I don't have many pix, despite the endless hours spent watching trains at Kirkcaldy and Dysart, but here are a couple of the 'spotter's paradise'.

A2 60530 sitting 'on top of the wall' at the exit from the up goods yard. This was a favourite location for seeing the trains, as the low wall behind the Art Gallery formed a mini grandstand, from which the up starter could be seen above the station buildings and canopy, while the down home was directly opposite at the platform end. Also, it was quite common for loco crews waiting for the road at the yard exit disc to converse with the spotty youths below with their Ian Allan ABC's. I learned from the fireman of J69 no. 68504 on pilot duty that his was a 'furrin injin', and recall long conversations with the crew of J38 65904, and with the driver of a V2 about the Gresley 3cylinder locos. Incidentally, the pic shows the same train as was featured passing Den Road in a previous post, so my trusty armour plated Raleigh with Sturmey Archer gears must have flown along Victoria Road to capture this second pic.

These show J37 64549 at Dysart from the spotter's bridge just north of the station. (shadow in foreground). The loco is marshalling a lengthy rake of empties for the 'Dubbie shunt' - note the brake van on the branch and the signal protecting the level crossing. The rake was then propelled down the branch round a sharp curve and over the 'A' class public road, with absolutely no visibility of same from the loco. Risk assessments, Elf 'n' Safety anyone?

Re the 'Clans'. Either 64A or 64B had a couple for a while, and I can recall Clan Macgregor through Kirkcaldy.

I also recall seeing 9F 92073 or 92173 (it was dark) passing through at the head of a very long train of 16t minerals full of sugar beet for Cupar, just before Christmas 1962 or 3. My only 9F in Fife.

[Graham R]

Andy, thanks for sharing these - they're great memories!

 

I also recall seeing 9F 92073 or 92173 (it was dark) passing through at the head of a very long train of 16t minerals full of sugar beet for Cupar, just before Christmas 1962 or 3. My only 9F in Fife.

 

That is fascinating. I had no idea a 9F got to Cupar!

[Lochty no more]

The "Kirkcaldy area thread" set me thinking the other day, as we were looking for a point lever at the Kingdom of Fife RPS, what happened to the one from Kirkcaldy harbour? after a bit of rummaging we found it in a container

I have posted a short article under the preservation heading for anybody thats interested

[asarnot]

Picturing some of these movements in my mind reminded me of something. No one has yet mentioned the "double stop". I do not know about loco hauled trains in diesel days but in the 50s/early60s some of the Pacific hauled Aberdeen trains were fairly long. The up platform, particularly when the entry to the bay was still there, was quite short. Trains pulled up with the loco at the starter and on occaision several coaches were not yet into the platform. I don't know what signalling was used but the loco then moved forward until this end portion was in the platform and stopped again.

 

The double stop was quite frequently used in the up platform. Aberdeen /Edinburgh trains, especially with KX portions, often loaded to 10 or 11 carriages, and sometimes to 13. As I recall, the loco - usually an A1 or A2 - would draw up at the up starter, ie short of the full platform end, leaving a substantial 'tail' projecting beyond the other end of the platform. After the regulation period the guard, standing at the north end of the platform would give a couple of sharp blasts on his whistle, and this wouild be relayed to the engine crew by a senior member of the station staff standing towards the head of the train. The loco would then ease forward until the tail of the train was just in the platform, when the guard would again blow his whistle, and the the other staff member would signal the loco crew to stop. Unfortunately, I cannot remember whether the whistle signals were accompanied by the display of the appropriate flags, although I think the guard probably waved his - green then red - to confirm. This manoeuvre generally left the loco positioned on or sometimes beyond the bridge over Abbotshall Road, and frequently lead to panic amonst the uninitiated, who thought the train was off without them. I believe the practice was stopped in diesel days, as it occupied too much station time.

Interestingly, this summer I made a trip from Dundee to Kirkcaldy, the train being an HST (Ah, comfortable, quiet, punctual, fast, if a little tired looking, but still British engineering at its best). Shortly before arrival, the conductor announced that the train might be too long for the platform, and would passengers in the rear coach make their way forward. The train stopped with the last coach and power car beyond the platform end, but there seemed to be plenty of room at the head of the platform, so i am not aware of the reason for this move.

[Lochty no more]

This thread seems to have lost it`s head of steam - time to put it back

[asarnot]

There is a letter in the October issue of 'Railway Bylines' magazine concerning the problem the introduction of the spring points caused at the harbour branch junction, following the switching out of the box under the 1967 proposals. This refers back to the excellent article on the branch in the August issue of the same magazine.

[Graham R]

One part of the Kirkcaldy infrastructure we haven't mentioned so far is Randolph Siding, between Dysart and Thornton South, serving Randolph Pit. This had been closed and demolished by the time I was old enough to pay attention but I was always intrigued by the layout shown on my dad's 1950s OS one-inch map of Fife - it seemed to be a very tight reverse loop rather than a simple siding. Impossible, I thought... would make a nice prototype for a model in a small space though! There's a history of the pit, and a photo from an old postcard, here.

 

Due to the generosity of a friend, Robert Dey, in making available items form the collection of the late Ed. Nicoll, I have a bit more info to share. First of all a photo of the signalbox - didn't think I'd ever see one!

 

 

Also from Ed's notes, the signalling layout, which I've redrawn for clarity.

 

 

Finally a couple of tracings from OS 25-inch maps to show the layout as it developed: first in 1893, as a simple pit with one shaft, and 20 years later with the reverse loop in place and more sidings.

 

 

 

As you can see the trailing crossover between Up and Down lines seems to have moved about a bit - the OS didn't record it in 1893, then had it next the signalbox in 1913. I didn't trace a later map (the 1961 survey on old-maps.co.uk), but this shows the crossover where Ed's signal diagram has it, north of the trailing Down connection to the pit sidings.

 

The signalbox was listed as open 24 hours (except for Sundays) in 1948.

 

By 1961, the original shaft and the associated loop sidings on the south side had been removed, and the pit bing (spoil heap) had extended to cover all the area to the north. The pit ceased operations in 1968 and the signalbox closed at the end of that year.

 

The reverse loop was on an embankment, with a bridge through which there was an access road to the pit. Quite an attractive feature. It seems to have had an almost unbelieveable radius of about 2 chains ! The IRS's "Industrial Locomotives of Scotland" doesn't mention the pit as having a pug ... does anyone know different? Or maybe wagons were moved round the loop by gravity alone?

 

Any of the other participants in this thread remember Randolph Siding?

 

cheers

Graham

[asarnot]

Hi Graham,

I don't remember the Randolph sidings as such, but I can recall seeing the sharply curving embankment and the access road bridge to the pit. As far as I recall, the bridge was a plate girder type, rather than a masonry arch, and it had a pretty low headroom clearance for road traffic. I remember seeing wagons sitting on the embankment, but no locos. This would be about 1961, as I was learning to drive at the time, and a friend regularly took me along the Standing Stane Road to Kennoway for driving practice. On leaving Boreland there was a short straight, then a sharp right hand turn in the road, and the entrance to the pit was to the left at about this point. The wagons parked on the loop were quite visible from a fair distance back, but didn't seem to move much - wagon storage perhaps? Later, there was substantial open cast coal working between Randolph and Thornton, which later still was extensively re-landscaped, so there is almost no trace of railway or pit infrastructure left hereabout.

I remember reading (John Thomas, perhaps?) that the Randolph workings were so shallow that the miners could apparently set their watches by the passage of the Aberdeen trains on the main line.

Andy.

[keefer]

andy, i've read that too though can't remember where!

i've definitely read somewhere that the railway wouldn't pay the pits to reserve the land around/under the lines. therefore the pits dug where they wanted, often directly under the railway - IIRC thornton jn. station had to be rebuilt several times over the years due to subsidence.

Edited October 13, 2012 by keefer

[Graham R]

Comments from a retired signalman who worked the boxes around Kirkcaldy: "Randolph Siding ( the "Randy") has obviously moved on from my days there - it has what looks suspiciously like a loo behind the box! When I was there there was no running water (a big can was delivered by a Haymarket-Dundee light engine every day), the lighting was a Tilley lamp, and the loo was the bushes on the right of the picture".

 

He also shed some light on the Up dock platform at Kirkcaldy station which we discussed earlier in the thread: "In the late 50's/early 60's the dock platform off the Up line at the Edinburgh end of the station was solely used for loading parcels traffic. The late shift yard pilot would go down 7 o'clockish and uplift a van which was subsequently attached to an Aberdeen - King's Cross parcels train (the "baggage") which called at Kirkcaldy around 2130. The early shift pilot would place an empty van in the dock the following morning. I've never known a passenger train to use the platform prior to DMU days, but I do recall the odd DMU working starting from there in the late 60's".

 

Graham

[Graham R]

Here is a photo of Dysart signalbox, supplied by Robert Dey from Ed Nicoll's collection:

 

 

and the signal layout in 1977, similarly from Ed's collection:

 

 

The RCAHMS Canmore site also has two uncredited images of the signalbox: looking north and looking south, and a John Hume image of Normand Road level crossing on the branch to Frances pit .... I don't think there are links to these earlier in the thread.

 

cheers

Graham

[asarnot]

When I were a lad, I was 'authoritatively' informed by an older trainspotter on the Library wall at Kirkcaldy station that it was 'impossible' to make an Austerity 2-8-0 ( universally known as 'clankers' in local parlance) slip.

Oh no it wasn't!

WD 90534 loses her feet spectacularly crossing from the up main to the down main at Dysart, having just reversed out of the 'Dubbie' sidings.

I wish I had had a tape recorder. It would have sounded like an earthquake in a scrapyard.

 

PS. Pete Westwater took quite a few audio recordings around Kirkcaldy back in the sixties.

[keefer]

just found this on the RCTS archive site, 06002 parked next to the signalbox at kirkcaldy in 1977 and showing a merchant's coal drops nearby

 

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive/image.htm?img=CH03344&jpg=CH03344.jpg&srch=&page=0

[Graham R]

In the hope that yet more memories will be shared - and for the benefit of anyone not familiar with the local geography! - here's a diagram of the branch to the "Dubbie", coloured to show its development as far as I can follow it from OS map survey dates. It went from being quite minimal before 1900 to a fairly extensive complex for the last thirty years of its operation. Thanks to Lochty No More for telling me the name of the exchange sidings at the main line ...

 

 

I made a few visits with my dad in the 1970s to watch the pug at work shunting wagons and the Class 20 working them up the gradient to the exchange sidings. The NCB staff were friendly and there was no difficulty in walking around the site as long as you kept out of the way. Much to my delight, one weekend back shift when things were quiet, the pug driver let me drive No 21 in the east end sidings. This is what I saw from the footplate:

 

 

cheers

Graham

 

Edit ... I meant to add - Railway Bylines had an article on Frances Colliery with many photos in December 2004. And a question for those with local knowledge ... the OS maps of 1938 and 1951 show a weighing machine in the smaller group of sidings at Sandilands, which I've marked on the map. This is fairly obviously not a rail weighbridge ... but what would its use be? Was there landsale of coal from these sidings?

Edited October 14, 2012 by Graham R

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

Lots more wonderful stuff! Like Andrew I can remember the "return loop" on the embankment and low bridge at the Randolph seen from the standing stane road. The sidings were only a glimpse in passing from a train. The Randolph was not really somewhere to watch trains from as there was no easy access. In the days before "right to roam" the colliery complex (out of bounds) and farmers fields sealed it off. There were a lot of good viewpoints in Kirkcaldy to watch trains from and I have memories of them all but lots of the rest of the railway was inaccessable to small (or even slightly larger)boys.

Thanks for the trackplan of the Dubbie and signal box photos Graham. I don't know about the weighing machine, Pete might he was the one who spent most time there.I don't think a coal merchant worked from there but a lot of the population in Dysart were involved in mining and would get deliveries of "miners coal" this might have been distributed from there.Your Signalman's memories of the bay are similar to mine. Jinglin Geordie one Christmas and the West End Congregational Sunday School Trip to Aberdour did not constitute regular use. I think that they would have been put inside to allow other traffic to use the main line.It was the same with the green DMUs I can remember joining one in the bay just as a train of coal empties for Seafield rattled through and looking out for it when we passed Seafield shortly afterwards.My Father went straight from School into the RAF. After the war he tried a few jobs but really wanted to teach so he put himself through University with a wife and child to support.In the long holidays he did as much work as he could - Aux Air Force (for which he got his officers pay)all Summer and at Christmas he worked on the Post. Having found out that he had a good knowledge of Geography they used him at the station, putting mail onto trains. I was just old enough to take him the odd flask of tea (an excuse to watch the trains)this was when I watched the J88 collect a parcels van from the bay,round it, wait in the up yard and add it to the end of a train in the platform. This was probably only a once a day occurrence normally but perhaps more often in the pre Christmas rush.

Andrew you mentioned speaking to a J69 driver (the furrin engine) if this was working as yard pilot when was this? between the J88s and the Hunslets? or was it an unusual loco filling in? When the J88s worked the yard and the Harbour it was usually a J69 at Sinclairtown do you know if all 3 locos stabled at the place off Rosebury Terrace bridge that you reminded us of in the Harbour posting? On page one of this posting Keefer posted links to aerial photos. The second one (bennochy bridge to the harbour) shows this area. Enlarged as much as I can there is what looks to me like a water tank on the embankment.You mentioned ashpits so it looks as if there was proper stabling/minimum servicing facilities there for the pilot locos.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Edited October 14, 2012 by Ian Kirk

[keefer]

just spotted this gem on michael laing's flickr - the (in)famous locos in muir's den rd. yard (in 2004)

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/punkrocksuperstar63/3634471534/in/set-72157617014610729