RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted October 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2012 Evening all, I'm currently in the process of designing my new O gauge layout, and I'm hoping I can draw on people's knowledge. Trains will arrive onto the layout by means of a curved incline (think of the Preston Docks branch at Preston station). This incline will have brick retaining walls. Now at the top of the climb is a junction with trains being able to be routed into the main arrival/departure road or the run-round loop. This arrival will be controlled by an upper quadrant semaphore bracket signal. The question is where and how is the bracket located? Obviously on the climb ahead of the junction, but is it on the trackside, is it on top of the retaining wall or is the wall indented to allow the signal to be located and clearance for the train without increasing the tracked width on the climb?? What are people's thoughts and opinions? Does anyone have any images of similar signals/brackets? The model signal will be fully working. Are there any other items that should be placed around the structure, that are required by/associated to it? All help and constructive thoughts appreciated! Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2012 Whether the curve is to the left or right on the approach may have a bearing, also the height of the retaining walls. Can you post a sketch or a picture of the layout? This would be helpful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The signal would be located wherever it is best sighted, and in good time, by the driver. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted October 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2012 If there was space and the ground is cut away where the wall is then the embankment would be wide enough to place the post trackside as normal as they wouldn't dig away more than they have to. If the embankment is being built up behind the vertical retaining wall then they would keep it as narrow as possible to save money and probably position the signal on a buttress sticking out from the wall, a suitable distance for the safety overlap, as it's cheap as the buttress has to be there to support the wall. If the retaining wall is at an angle and manages without supporting buttresses then they may build a partial buttress vertically out of the wall purely to support the signal. It's rare but not impossible to find tall vertical walls without buttresses, (they are usually only found if the line is partially on solid foundations such as rock and the wall only carries part of the load), and in this case they might build a bracket or even stepped brick support out of the wall to support it. A version of this might also be used if the buttresses aren't wide enough and there's insufficient clearance below so they have to hang out over a lower track or obstacle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2012 The signal would be located wherever it is best sighted, and in good time, by the driver. Not necessarily, a banner could repeat it if the physical location was restricted. Whether the curve is to the left or right on the approach may have a bearing, also the height of the retaining walls. Can you post a sketch or a picture of the layout? This would be helpful. And add the region modelled, the time period and a brief history of the line and what trains use the line. (Assume it's LMR) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted October 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2012 We must be talking quite low speeds in this situation. I wonder if a bracket signal is not overkill and a groundsignal would not be adequate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Not necessarily, a banner could repeat it if the physical location was restricted. Fair point, but taking Joseph's point, and the uphill approach, that would probably be overkill in this particular situation. If it were on the flat and high speed, the GWR would have installed splitting distants... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2012 Looks relatively straightforward to me judging from a pic of the situation at Preston http://www.railbrit.co.uk/location.php?photographer=&loc=North%20Union%20Railway&offset=29 This gives the basic clues that the signal would almost certainly be mounted on a structure bracketed from one sidewall (no need for complications like buttresses) or possibly mounted on a small gantry fixed between the two side wall in view of the short distance between them That's the easy bit. As you talk about upper quadrant signals I'm assuming late pre-nationlisation/nationalised era and would suggest you would best be served by two miniature arms mounted one above the other on a single doll - this would give the best sighting for the Driver of an approaching train and you could use standard components for the doll and arms although - as you say - you do need some pics to find a suitable bracket etc structure (I've not got any alas). The signal will be pretty close to the toe of the facing points so you also need to think about the method of working - if you want to be prototypical - bearing in mind the steep gradient approaching the signal the railway would almost certainly have some sort of Instruction in place to either severely restrict trainloads or not allow a train to approach from the bottom of the gradient unless the signal is off and therefore the train won't be brought to a stand at it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2012 Fair point, but taking Joseph's point, and the uphill approach, that would probably be overkill in this particular situation. If it were on the flat and high speed, the GWR would have installed splitting distants... 'High speed' in that case being at least 40 mph (in both directions). In the case in question there might have been a distant signal with some sort of Special Instruction such as 'Any train coming from the xxxx branch which finds the distant signal at danger must stop at that signal until such time as it is lowered' (It's a very old Instruction ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2012 http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=274648&Section=3694 Click on the "larger image" - you will see a wall mounted signal with two arms, in this case main and sub but they could equally be two mains - these are lower quadrant. (It's Camden) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2012 Another possibility is here PS - the caption on my linked image (the painting) is wrong so ignore it ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted October 5, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2012 Hi guys, Wow! Didn't expect such a high response!! Thanks to all of you for your thoughts so far. I'll pop a sketch on later this evening, but its a left hand curve climbing up the grade, sighting would be limited, so my assumption would be a banner repeater located earlier on the curve, off layout. It's London Midland region and the period modelled will be late 1950s/early 1960s. As for the company, I've yet to decide if its British Railways throughout, or BR on the trains arriving/departing with industrial locks on the shunting, or industrial throughout. My line of thinking is that if the latter then it's probably and old LMS line which has been abandoned and reopened or taken over by industry. Traffic is all freight. This shot (http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=38006) is along my line of thought, but curving the other way. I must admit I like the signal assembly located on the wall as illustrated by the painting! My big quandary is that I don't think there is space for a signal post, therefore I'm thinking that some wall mounted option may be best, but how on earth I actually model it, attach it and get it working is anyone's guess! Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted October 5, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2012 As you talk about upper quadrant signals I'm assuming late pre-nationlisation/nationalised era and would suggest you would best be served by two miniature arms mounted one above the other on a single doll - this would give the best sighting for the Driver of an approaching train and you could use standard components for the doll and arms although - as you say - you do need some pics to find a suitable bracket etc structure (I've not got any alas). That is one thought I hadn't had. I presume on a route such as this it would be miniature arms rather than two ground-level shunt signals? Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 6, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 6, 2012 That is one thought I hadn't had. I presume on a route such as this it would be miniature arms rather than two ground-level shunt signals? Rich The sighting of ground discs in such a situation would be very poor - if they had been there once upon a time I would be pretty sure they would have been replaced at the earliest opportunity or at the very least elevated (and I think it would be easier to get a working miniature semaphore). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 6, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 6, 2012 ........................................... In the case in question there might have been a distant signal with some sort of Special Instruction such as 'Any train coming from the xxxx branch which finds the distant signal at danger must stop at that signal until such time as it is lowered' (It's a very old Instruction ). I remember one instance where under certain conditions the driver was instructed to wait at a banner signal until it cleared. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 6, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 6, 2012 Looking at pictures of the Ribble Branch, I don't think there would be clearance for a signal post, although if there were that would be my preferred option. Depending on the height of the walls, I would go for either a wall mounted bracket or a signal mounted on top of the wall. A nice touch for a wall mounted bracket, assuming that the land on the top belonged to the railway, would be ladder access from above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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