sn Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Having just spied a rather nice 1930's pic of an M1 on a two van milk train at Hawes, I was thinkg about incorporating that traffic on a future layout. However I was wondering , when did milk trains cease to be churns loaded into utitlity vans and become milk tanker trains? Could I justify a van train for milk traffice on a steam BR era layout or had they morphed into milk tanker trains by that time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 You always need a van - a brake vehicle - but I believe any full milk train not conveying tanks would be extremely rare by the BR era. If there was a small amount of churn traffic it would most likely be attached as tail traffic to another service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 this is pretty good article you might find helpful: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/7-fops/fo-milk.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sn Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Thanks for both of your replies and a great link too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted October 15, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 15, 2012 You always need a van - a brake vehicle Were not at least some 6-wheel tanks able to run without such? Milk trains ran as Class 3 owing to the perishable nature of the loading and as such all vehicles in the train would be required to meet coaching stock standards namely be fully fitted with a continuous brake and capable of running at 75mph. I'm not aware of any churn traffic of consequence later than the 1950s but I believe there were a few remaining local workings which included a van of churns among other wagons. The Hemyock goods comes to mind in this context. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Were not at least some 6-wheel tanks able to run without such? Milk trains ran as Class 3 owing to the perishable nature of the loading and as such all vehicles in the train would be required to meet coaching stock standards namely be fully fitted with a continuous brake and capable of running at 75mph. True, but until 1967 you still need somewhere for the guard to sit. The latest pic i have of a pure van train is 1954, a Compound and a single pigeon van between Glasgow and Dumfries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 We need a proper railwayman to be able to quote the Rules but at the time the OP mentions even a fully fitted consist needs a brake vehicle towards or at the back. I believe the use of PBVs arose partly because they had capacity for any churns which might be part of the load and partly because the trains ran to passenger timings and these were more stable/comfortable at high speeds. Edit - post crossed with Stuart - amended to specify in this era. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I have built a couple of milk tankers in 7mm, which you can see my gallery if interested and according to Slater's they were originally built as 4 wheelers but because they had a habit of "hunting" and lurching about they were modified with the additional middle set of wheels. Also they were coupling up on the back of express trains and the Paddington milk ran with up to 17 tankers on the rear, which must of been some sight to see. The guard was in one of the coaches and there was no guards van at the rear as the tankers were all fitted with a continuous brake. ATB, Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted October 15, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 15, 2012 Steam-hauled trains would have required a van for the guard despite the wagons being fitted. An elderly parcels van or similar was usually employed rather than a 4-wheel brake van when on the main line due to the required speeds. Once diesel traction arrived the guard could (and did) ride shotgun in the loco either in the front or rear cab according to local rules and no doubt the preferences of the rostered crew. Thus diesel-hauled milk trains would not have required any other vehicle in the train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 link Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Steam-hauled trains would have required a van for the guard despite the wagons being fitted. An elderly parcels van or similar was usually employed rather than a 4-wheel brake van when on the main line due to the required speeds. Once diesel traction arrived the guard could (and did) ride shotgun in the loco either in the front or rear cab according to local rules and no doubt the preferences of the rostered crew. Thus diesel-hauled milk trains would not have required any other vehicle in the train. I agree I should of made this clearer, somewhere I have a picture of a milk train with a SR/BR van BY coupled between a set of coaches and the milk tankers. Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Didn't the agreement allowing guards to ride in the rear cab date from some years after the introduction of diesel traction- perhaps 1967/8? Certainly the earliest Freightliner services (also running as Class 3, IIRC) were provided with brake-vans- normally superannuated passenger stock- during the earliest years of operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted October 15, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 15, 2012 Very early Freightliners did indeed include a van for the guard. But only for a very short time. Agreement was reached for them to ride on the locomotive and the van created marshalling and shunting difficulties. Those trains were as you say class 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The requirement for milk trains to have a brake vehicle (usually an old BG coach) was abolished at the start of 1968 and they disappear from photos of milk trains almost immeadiately from that date. The first milk tankers were 4-wheelers and were introduced in the mid-20s. By the mid 30s they were built as 6-wheelers to give a more stable ride and the earlier tankers had been coverted. Churn traffic dropped off steadily as tankers grew in numbers but mixed trains remained common into BR days. The last churn traffic ran sometime in the late 50s or early 60s. I have not been able to get a precise date (latest I have read is 1961) but it was just a residual traffic by that date. What region are you looking to model? I have a fair collection of milk train photos if you are looking for a suitable prototype. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sn Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 The requirement for milk trains to have a brake vehicle (usually an old BG coach) was abolished at the start of 1968 and they disappear from photos of milk trains almost immeadiately from that date. The first milk tankers were 4-wheelers and were introduced in the mid-20s. By the mid 30s they were built as 6-wheelers to give a more stable ride and the earlier tankers had been coverted. Churn traffic dropped off steadily as tankers grew in numbers but mixed trains remained common into BR days. The last churn traffic ran sometime in the late 50s or early 60s. I have not been able to get a precise date (latest I have read is 1961) but it was just a residual traffic by that date. What region are you looking to model? I have a fair collection of milk train photos if you are looking for a suitable prototype. Looks like I can get away with churn traffic ( just!) for 1950's. I will be modelling west midlands area (vaugely) western/London Midland regiion crossover Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Looks like I can get away with churn traffic ( just!) for 1950's. I will be modelling west midlands area (vaugely) western/London Midland regiion crossover Yup, I think you should be able to get away with it. I will have a trawl through my archive and see if I can find what vehicles the LMR used for churn traffic. On the plus-side, you have plenty of options for the obligatory brake vehicle. Stannier 50' brakes were common on milk but a real favourite was the Stove-R. This was lighter than most other passenger-rated brake vehicles so made a popular choice as it left more power available to haul the real load. The Dorrington milk train came down the GCR but touched WR territorry around Banbury on its way down the IMS depot at Rossmore Road next to Marylebone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Looks like I can get away with churn traffic ( just!) for 1950's. I will be modelling west midlands area (vaugely) western/London Midland regiion crossover Here are some LMs/LMR milk trains, first one in particular is a real mish-mash. http://www.rmweb.co....150#entry239245 http://www.warwicksh...wr_nupa1194.htm http://www.warwicksh...lnwr_tt1218.htm http://www.warwicksh...lnwr_tt1215.htm http://www.warwicksh...wr_nupa1178.htm http://www.warwicksh.../lnwrns1701.htm http://www.flickr.com/photos/kerryp28/6709996375/ http://www.flickr.co...p28/6223085256/ Curiously, there seems to be a real lack of vehicles for milk churns, mostly tankers, even pre-WW2. I think churn traffic was carried though as there are signs of it at New Street. http://www.flickr.co...ges/7349681962/ I will keep looking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 You got any pics from the East Suffolk line, Karhedron? I'm thinking about the Halesworth milk in the early 1950s specifically. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 You got any pics from the East Suffolk line, Karhedron? I'm thinking about the Halesworth milk in the early 1950s specifically. Not Haleswoth unfortunately. I have one of the Norwich Milk train here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/kindredspirituk/3306081413/in/faves-39347043@N07/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I thought the Dorrington train came down the GWR line from Shropshire as far as Banbury, and then went, via a double reversal at Banbury and Woodford Halse, to Marylebone? Nice selection of shots; I'm struck by the number of road-rail tanks there seem to be. How common were these, and when did the last go out of service? I saw the Carmarthen milk on an almost daily basis from September 1966 (it went past my school), and never saw one on there. I'm tempted to do one of those smaller tanks; any ideas what mght serve as a barrel in 4mm? I've already done a selection of different 3500 Gallon tanks, with various brake arrangements, tank supports etc. I must have a try at doing some of the different platform arrangements, but I'm not sure I've the soldering skills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Nice selection of shots; I'm struck by the number of road-rail tanks there seem to be. How common were these, and when did the last go out of service? I saw the Carmarthen milk on an almost daily basis from September 1966 (it went past my school), and never saw one on there. The last ones I know for sure are the CWS ones which served (I think) East Croydon. I believe these were withdrawn from service in 1960. I suspect there were later ones as I am pretty sure I have seen photos of them at West Ealing but I am not sure of the date or the owner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 The last ones I know for sure are the CWS ones which served (I think) East Croydon. I believe these were withdrawn from service in 1960. I suspect there were later ones as I am pretty sure I have seen photos of them at West Ealing but I am not sure of the date or the owner. The frames were at Swindon much later than that in 1975 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrmilktanks/e3518a07e http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrmilktanks/e3ee28397 I am not convinced all of the road rail tanks in the photographs were milk, the LMS had others for beer http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsbeer/e1b742232, and BR had them for Guiness. Agreed there were never many of them - 15 milk Roros on the LMS. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I will have a trawl through my archive and see if I can find what vehicles the LMR used for churn traffic. I am guessing the LMS would have used something like this 6-wheeled van for shurn traffic. Please note I am not endorsing the seller or the accuracy of the model, it was just the first photo that I came across. http://www.modelfair.com/product/59642/Hornby-r6242-lms-6-wheel-insulated-milk-van Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Roger Chivers used to do a kit for a slatted side 6 wheeler which would be much nicer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I wonder if anyone will do body kits to fit on the Hornby Stove-R chassis? I know that Etched Pixels are producing a CCT to fit the the N gauge version from the NGS/Dapol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sn Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Here are some LMs/LMR milk trains, first one in particular is a real mish-mash. http://www.rmweb.co....150#entry239245 http://www.warwicksh...wr_nupa1194.htm http://www.warwicksh...lnwr_tt1218.htm http://www.warwicksh...lnwr_tt1215.htm http://www.warwicksh...wr_nupa1178.htm http://www.warwicksh.../lnwrns1701.htm http://www.flickr.co...p28/6709996375/ http://www.flickr.co...p28/6223085256/ Curiously, there seems to be a real lack of vehicles for milk churns, mostly tankers, even pre-WW2. I think churn traffic was carried though as there are signs of it at New Street. http://www.flickr.co...ges/7349681962/ I will keep looking. EXcellent pics and most helpful! Thanks for taking the time to link those. It is MUCH appreciated. Cheers Len Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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