Wright writes.....

[coachmann]

(I tried to think of some whitty way of relating dinosaurs to model kits but failed.)

It's a hard call seeing as dinosaurs were very successful. But if you want to relate their stools to model kits, then K's, McGowan, Westdale, Mallard, Falcon Brass.....

Edited September 26, 2016 by coachmann

[jrg1]

It's a hard call seeing as dinosaurs were very successful. But if you want to relate their stools to model kits, then K's, McGowan, Westdale, Mallard, Falcon Brass.....

Yes I do-it used to amaze me that the purveyors of junk-and expensive junk at that used to receive such cordial reviews in the model press.  Like a Pravda review of Stalin's latest speech.  

Very bad for the hobby-although I enjoyed Pro-Scale's dummy spit enormously when two respected modellers took his V2 and dared to criticise it.

[Mallard60022]

OWE 116.

Roe bodied ex Sheffield Transport Department, collected from Boakes of Sevenoaks a few years earlier. Haxey was one of it's many reposes whilst we restored it. Still in existence at the South Yorkshire transport museum or whatever it's currently called.

 

 

2200SC. The one and only at the time, and the start of a slippery slope!

 

Mike.

Is that Sandtoft Tram Museum Resthome for Distressed Public Transport Vehicles? If so I must revisit to see if that bus is still there.

C.H. Ippy

[salmonpastures]

  Easy

 

K's, BEC, McGowan , Crownline etc etc !!

Can you still by PAFRA???

Really useful stuff,,, it lasted about 6 months and then everything converted back to being a kit!!

Those were the days!!

 

SAD

[Brian Kirby]

A few more photos from my Nottingham trip on the weekend before last. Here's one for the bus fans, arriving in the city centre, the first thing I saw were two lovely old London buses on wedding duty, I used to go to school on both those types, note the tram tracks. These are proper buses, with conductors and open rear platforms, for practising yer pole dancing!

 

 

 A tram ride up to the Bulwell Forest stop, allowed me to explore the GC Bulwell Common site, the station area and south have been built upon, although strangely the blue-brick road overbridges survive between the houses, as does the GC stationmaster's house. At the north end the dive-under junction has been bulldozed and is now very heavily overgrown, perhaps if you scrambled around you might find something, but I wasn't dressed for it, so I stayed on the path, along the edge of the golf course. Back on the road, at the north end, I did find the eastern abutment of Bulwell Viaduct, which used to cross over the river, two roads and the Midland "Robin Hood" line, but had gone before the trams appeared. This pic is looking south, the GC main line crossed on a NW/SE axis to the right, the dive-under link to the GN Leen Valley line, went off to the left of the wall here.

 

 

Back in Nottingham city centre, Weekday Cross was the junction south of Victoria and it's tunnels, where the GC and GN parted company. The tracks here were last used in the mid-70s (1974?) for freight, since when the viaducts have been demolished piecemeal, the girder bridges went first. When the tram was built, they replaced this section of GC with new concrete piers, although some GC arches survive by Midland station. By then the curved GN viaduct to the east still survived in isolation, although by now an eyesore, it has since been flattened (2014?), but can still be seen on Google Earth for the time being. Looking north, the GC/tram alignment is to the left, the GN crossed over to the right, the tunnel straght ahead to Victoria is now obscured and built upon, just one corner of blue-brick survives to mark the spot.

 

 

Finally here I am travelling south on the GC main line, we're heading off to Marylebone, in reality the tram turns off the route further south and heads west to the suburb of Clifton. I think the location was Ruddington Lane, i'm sitting in roughly the same position as a Black 5 driver, albeit a bit lower down.                              Cheers, Brian.

 

[stewartingram]

I must admit, I'm fully in favour of using labour saving tools and techniques. When I was younger, as a cadet we had to do our workshop training using files and hacksaws etc before we were trained to do the same sort of tasks with milling machines, lathes, surface grinders etc. I think that learning to do it the old way with hand tools is valuable and actually helps you to use machine tools effectively as you have a better understanding of the process, but if you have access to a proper workshop then my advice is to use it. When I was at sea I used to enjoy going back down below off watch or after the ER went UMS and doing modelling jobs in the workshop using the lathe and milling machine. What would be hours of work using the old handamatic techniques is often but a few minutes work if you have the right gear.

 

Comparable to maths? I learnt to to it in my head, (or on paper), before the advent of calculators. I did progress to a slide rule at tech college though. Whichever way I use, I find myself doing a simple calculation in my head, just to conform the calculator (or indeed in older days, the slide rule) is giving me the right sort of answer that I expected. Even at a till I can do a quick calculation to prove the total is of the right order.

 

Stewart

[Mallard60022]

A few more photos from my Nottingham trip on the weekend before last. Here's one for the bus fans, arriving in the city centre, the first thing I saw were two lovely old London buses on wedding duty, I used to go to school on both those types, note the tram tracks. These are proper buses, with conductors and open rear platforms, for practising yer pole dancing!

 

20160917_142951.jpg

 

 A tram ride up to the Bulwell Forest stop, allowed me to explore the GC Bulwell Common site, the station area and south have been built upon, although strangely the blue-brick road overbridges survive between the houses, as does the GC stationmaster's house. At the north end the dive-under junction has been bulldozed and is now very heavily overgrown, perhaps if you scrambled around you might find something, but I wasn't dressed for it, so I stayed on the path, along the edge of the golf course. Back on the road, at the north end, I did find the eastern abutment of Bulwell Viaduct, which used to cross over the river, two roads and the Midland "Robin Hood" line, but had gone before the trams appeared. This pic is looking south, the GC main line crossed on a NW/SE axis to the right, the dive-under link to the GN Leen Valley line, went off to the left of the wall here.

 

20160917_124010.jpg

 

Back in Nottingham city centre, Weekday Cross was the junction south of Victoria and it's tunnels, where the GC and GN parted company. The tracks here were last used in the mid-70s (1974?) for freight, since when the viaducts have been demolished piecemeal, the girder bridges went first. When the tram was built, they replaced this section of GC with new concrete piers, although some GC arches survive by Midland station. By then the curved GN viaduct to the east still survived in isolation, although by now an eyesore, it has since been flattened (2014?), but can still be seen on Google Earth for the time being. Looking north, the GC/tram alignment is to the left, the GN crossed over to the right, the tunnel straght ahead to Victoria is now obscured and built upon, just one corner of blue-brick survives to mark the spot.

 

20160917_164033.jpg

20160917_164555.jpg

 

Finally here I am travelling south on the GC main line, we're heading off to Marylebone, in reality the tram turns off the route further south and heads west to the suburb of Clifton. I think the location was Ruddington Lane, i'm sitting in roughly the same position as a Black 5 driver, albeit a bit lower down.                              Cheers, Brian.

 

20160917_102027.jpg

If you have the chance do go to the site of Bulwell Viaduct. You can park in the Tesco CP and have a good mooch around. Then follow the track path N/NE towards Hucknall although there is a b####y great road that cuts the route. If you check on G Earth Street View you can see where the Hucknall GC Station was in the cutting. The line then disappears for a while but, if you CBA, can be traced at Linby where the three routes then ran together towards  Sutton in Ashfield & Mansfield.

Phil 

[Brian Kirby]

If you have the chance do go to the site of Bulwell Viaduct. You can park in the Tesco CP and have a good mooch around. Then follow the track path N/NE towards Hucknall although there is a b####y great road that cuts the route. If you check on G Earth Street View you can see where the Hucknall GC Station was in the cutting. The line then disappears for a while but, if you CBA, can be traced at Linby where the three routes then ran together towards  Sutton in Ashfield & Mansfield.

Phil 

Thanks Phil, 

    I forgot to mention, that another foundation base of Bulwell Viaduct exists near it's western end, behind a bus stop on the main road. I've spotted it on Google Earth, but didn't have time to venture over there. Yes I too have studied the satellite images of the route north of Nottingham, as you will know various sections fizzle out and disappear, thanks to post-coal industry landscaping/earth moving, like at Annesley and near Heath Jct. One section which is particular hard to follow, is the northern part of the Chesterfield loop where it ran under the Midland, south of Chesterfield GC station you can still see the southern end of the short tunnel under the town, now bizarrely surrounded by a concrete-lined cutting, giving maintenance access to it. South of here it crossed back under the Midland heading SE, but all has disappeared at Horn's Bridge under a roundabout and modern bridgework, the line SE to near Heath Jct. is now a busy main road. A ground visit might reveal more?    BK

[great central]

If you have the chance do go to the site of Bulwell Viaduct. You can park in the Tesco CP and have a good mooch around. Then follow the track path N/NE towards Hucknall although there is a b####y great road that cuts the route. If you check on G Earth Street View you can see where the Hucknall GC Station was in the cutting. The line then disappears for a while but, if you CBA, can be traced at Linby where the three routes then ran together towards  Sutton in Ashfield & Mansfield.

Phil 

 

Not sure it's Tesco? Morrisons is pretty much on the site of Bulwell viaduct or at least the yard of the haulage firm beside it (name escapes me at the moment). The road in question is the Huckanll bypass, there are steps down from the remains of the embankment to cross it. The site of Hucknall GC has a restaurant and chemist as well as a health centre, but the cutting is filled up to the level of surrounding roads although the parapet of the bridge survives having been cut down to low level. The line can be traced as a green pathway past Hucknall although there may be gaps in it. 

From Linby northwards the GN line is a footpath, in past times it had a conveyor along it for colliery spoil. Then you'll arrive at the site of Annesley yard...........................

 

Edit; There's a thread about the GC around Nottingham here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71309-the-great-central-in-and-around-nottingham/page-3

 

Started by our esteemed duck

Edited September 26, 2016 by great central

[Andy R]

I had a very interesting conversation with a good friend of mine, who uses machine tools for just about any modelling job that he can. Even cutting a rectangle of plastic sheet will be done on his milling machine. He voiced the opinion that using technology to produce good models is all very well but the truly skilled modeller is the one who can mark out and cut something accurately using their own hand tools and personal ability in marking out and cutting.

 

He has a point. Even I can draw a rectangle in CAD and tell the computer that I want something 18.5mm x 23.25mm. How much harder is it to take a sheet of metal and to cut it to that size with a reasonable degree of accuracy?

 

Anyway, I have been on the computer enough (too long) today. I am off down to the shed now to saw out some footstep back plates for the latest scratchbuild. Marking out the curves each side to get them symmetrical will be a good test of my skills.

 

Hi Tony; and hopefully run some of the timetable on Buckingham!

 

regards, Andy Ralph

[Tony Wright]

Just a quick thought before retiring.

 

Two friends came today for further lessons. This time it's erecting Walschaerts valve gear - one brought a K2, the other an A1. I showed them how to build the gear for one side, and their homework for the next month is to erect the rest. 

 

Does anyone think that 3D printing will ever be able to do that? I'm told 3D printing can be done in metal. So, even with that, the artisan skills will still be necessary to finish things off. 

 

Both friends are making terrific progress; more down to their ability to learn than my ability to teach, I hasten to add. 

[Atso]

Just a quick thought before retiring.

 

Two friends came today for further lessons. This time it's erecting Walschaerts valve gear - one brought a K2, the other an A1. I showed them how to build the gear for one side, and their homework for the next month is to erect the rest. 

 

Does anyone think that 3D printing will ever be able to do that? I'm told 3D printing can be done in metal. So, even with that, the artisan skills will still be necessary to finish things off. 

 

Both friends are making terrific progress; more down to their ability to learn than my ability to teach, I hasten to add. 

Hi Tony,

 

Great to hear about your student's growing confidence to tackle things like valve gear.

 

With regards to metal printing; there are reports of people printing items such as coupling rods for locomotives as well as the possibility of the technology progress to allow metal to be printed with integral moving parts. At present this is beyond my own trust in the process (due to the apparent large inaccuracy factor that metal parts seem to have) and I personally believe that, at present at least, scavenged (from rtr), etched or scratchbuilt items are very much the only viable methods available. However, I do believe that 3D prints could be used as investment casting masters for items such as piston rods and cranks to be used alongside etched parts.

 

With regard to artisan skills, 3D printing is already capable of printing in full colour. However, the materials capable of this that I've discovered are rather coarse and, in my opinion at least, unsuitable for our needs. This is not to say this will always be the case but personally I think I'd keep hand painting my own models. While 3D printing allows me to achieve a much more detailed model than I could build either from a (n gauge) kit or scratchbuild (after many many years of trying), I gain great satisfaction bringing the model to life, so to speak, during the various finishing and painting stages.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Atso

[1306]

OWE 116.

Roe bodied ex Sheffield Transport Department, collected from Boakes of Sevenoaks a few years earlier. Haxey was one of it's many reposes whilst we restored it. Still in existence at the South Yorkshire transport museum or whatever it's currently called.

 

 

2200SC. The one and only at the time, and the start of a slippery slope!

 

Mike.

I  believe the Regent III in the photo is not OWE116 but York Pullman 64 JDN668 owned by the late Tony Peart and also kept at Haxey. JDN668 has a large single destination display as in the photograph whereas OWE116 has the Sheffield three part display. Tony also kept his other Regent III Doncaster 122 KDT393 at Haxey. Both vehicles are now in the care of the L.V.V.S. at North Hykeham,

 

Tony

Edited September 27, 2016 by 1306

[Izzy]

I do think that like so much else 3D printing is just another tool in the toolbox to be used as and when needed where it is found suitable for the job in hand, and it's a technology that is still in the early stages and developing in response to the needs of those trying to use it. There seems to be this idea that when something new appears all that went before somehow suddenly becomes redundent rather than it compliments what already exists, and this attitude has gained ground in more recent times with the advent of computor technology, where indeed it is often the case that new generations of designs of hardware and software do actually replace and make redundent the previous ones. But this doesn't apply wholesale to all aspects of life. I am sure a mix of etched/cast/3D printed and yes, hand made parts made from card/plastic/metal, will remain in existance for as long as modelling itself exits.

 

Izzy

[t-b-g]

Hi Tony; and hopefully run some of the timetable on Buckingham!

 

regards, Andy Ralph

 

Hello Andy,

 

That will be tonight! I have one or two little jobs to do first as a couple of home made switches at Buckingham are sulking!

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

[t-b-g]

I do think that like so much else 3D printing is just another tool in the toolbox to be used as and when needed where it is found suitable for the job in hand, and it's a technology that is still in the early stages and developing in response to the needs of those trying to use it. There seems to be this idea that when something new appears all that went before somehow suddenly becomes redundent rather than it compliments what already exists, and this attitude has gained ground in more recent times with the advent of computor technology, where indeed it is often the case that new generations of designs of hardware and software do actually replace and make redundent the previous ones. But this doesn't apply wholesale to all aspects of life. I am sure a mix of etched/cast/3D printed and yes, hand made parts made from card/plastic/metal, will remain in existance for as long as modelling itself exits.

 

Izzy

 

Spot on!

 

Even when (as it surely will) the technology improves to a point where a fully coloured, finished model can be printed out in one shot at a reasonable cost, it will never mean that the skills and techniques that have gone before will be, or should be, consigned to history. Much in life is mass produced, almost untouched by human hands. One thing that it has done is to make the things that craftsman make by hand "the old ways" even more special and desirable.

[Mallard60022]

Not sure it's Tesco? Morrisons is pretty much on the site of Bulwell viaduct or at least the yard of the haulage firm beside it (name escapes me at the moment). The road in question is the Huckanll bypass, there are steps down from the remains of the embankment to cross it. The site of Hucknall GC has a restaurant and chemist as well as a health centre, but the cutting is filled up to the level of surrounding roads although the parapet of the bridge survives having been cut down to low level. The line can be traced as a green pathway past Hucknall although there may be gaps in it. 

From Linby northwards the GN line is a footpath, in past times it had a conveyor along it for colliery spoil. Then you'll arrive at the site of Annesley yard...........................

 

Edit; There's a thread about the GC around Nottingham here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71309-the-great-central-in-and-around-nottingham/page-3

 

Started by our esteemed duck

Tesco...doh! Morrisons it is. I shall now go away and shut up.

Phil

[St Enodoc]

Tesco...doh! Morrisons it is. I shall now go away and shut up.

Phil

That'll be the day.

[coachmann]

Re advancing technology, etching still has plenty of potential if people are willing to shell out for triple-etch in place of the usual half-etch. I have carried out various experiments with it over the past 15 years. 3D flexible plastic (nylon?) bogies were purchased when they came out and while I consider they can be extremely useful, they are no use if I cannot ask for small alterations to make them stronger (and commercial). There is plenty of interest in 3D when it involves plastic and this is not surprising when folk are at home gluing plastic together. An appropriate application for 3D plastic coach sides is Gresley pattern panelling and coaches with recessed doors such as LNWR WCJS 12-wheelers and GWR Concertina stock. The rest are still best done by etching. I am talking 4mm here. 7mm is a different kettle of fish and one only has to look at the JLTRT 'plastic' GWR 'Toplight' coaches to see what can be achieved detail-wise. Such detail was attempted many years ago by Slaters using etchings, but soldering in separate external window bolections was a ball-breaker and excess solder then got in the way of lining the coaches out afterwards.

[billbedford]

With regard to artisan skills, 3D printing is already capable of printing in full colour. However, the materials capable of this that I've discovered are rather coarse and, in my opinion at least, unsuitable for our needs. This is not to say this will always be the case but personally I think I'd keep hand painting my own models. While 3D printing allows me to achieve a much more detailed model than I could build either from a (n gauge) kit or scratchbuild (after many many years of trying), I gain great satisfaction bringing the model to life, so to speak, during the various finishing and painting stages.

 

 

Ejected moulded plastic is available in any colour, but RTR stock is almost invariably painted.

[billbedford]

With regards to metal printing; there are reports of people printing items such as coupling rods for locomotives as well as the possibility of the technology progress to allow metal to be printed with integral moving parts. At present this is beyond my own trust in the process (due to the apparent large inaccuracy factor that metal parts seem to have) and I personally believe that, at present at least, scavenged (from rtr), etched or scratchbuilt items are very much the only viable methods available. However, I do believe that 3D prints could be used as investment casting masters for items such as piston rods and cranks to be used alongside etched parts.

 

 

In 7mm scale many coupling and connecting rods are machined and there is no real reason why 4mm rods couldn't be made in the same way, or for that matter a complete, one piece, inside crank axle. The problems are more to do with the quantities required, because of the setting up costs of the machine, the number that would have to be made to make them affordable would be much greater than the number of possible sales.

[Focalplane]

In 7mm scale many coupling and connecting rods are machined and there is no real reason why 4mm rods couldn't be made in the same way, or for that matter a complete, one piece, inside crank axle. The problems are more to do with the quantities required, because of the setting up costs of the machine, the number that would have to be made to make them affordable would be much greater than the number of possible sales.

Earlier this year I bought a working inside motion kit for the 7mm Midland Compound from Laurie Griffin (lgminiatures.co.uk) but before doing so asked how the axle would be modified.  Easy!  Well maybe:  simply Loctite the brass crank onto the Slaters axle and then carefully remove the centre of the axle with a hacksaw.  I have not tried this yet as I am still waiting on the Compound kit but I think I might order an extra axle or two, just in case.

 

Seriously, I agree with the problem of how many of such crank axles would ever be sold along the lines you suggest would be possible, and given the quality of the right adhesive and how it is applied I think the work around should be less costly and the result just as effective.

 

Edited to add the following:

 

Here is a video of Laurie Griffin's MR inside motion:

 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/1ApPbkQaKCw

 

I have a pristine kit of the nearest thing in 4mm scale, the Brassmaster's 4F.  This uses eccentrics on an untampered axle to produce the same effect.  Given my eyesight and now pinched nerve problem in my left thumb (the French call it "nerf pincé" which is an easy translation to understand) I seriously doubt if I will ever be able to start on this very complex kit which is probably better suited to P4 or EM gauge.  If anyone is seriously interested, please PM me because I will be happy to see this kit go to a happy home.  The wheels and motor/gearbox are in the box as well.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Focalplane

[Clive Mortimore]

I do think that like so much else 3D printing is just another tool in the toolbox to be used as and when needed where it is found suitable for the job in hand, and it's a technology that is still in the early stages and developing in response to the needs of those trying to use it. There seems to be this idea that when something new appears all that went before somehow suddenly becomes redundent rather than it compliments what already exists, and this attitude has gained ground in more recent times with the advent of computor technology, where indeed it is often the case that new generations of designs of hardware and software do actually replace and make redundent the previous ones. But this doesn't apply wholesale to all aspects of life. I am sure a mix of etched/cast/3D printed and yes, hand made parts made from card/plastic/metal, will remain in existance for as long as modelling itself exits.

 

Izzy

Hi Izzy

 

Mrs M did say something like " Have you seen these?" as she trust her all singing and dancing phone under my nose. " I do think it is time you upgraded your flint axe for a metal saw."

 

All old and new methods and materials should be viewed with the same potential, it is just using the right one for the result you want.

 

 

Edit.....I have just remembered that there are those out there in modelling land who have all the gear but no idea.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Clive Mortimore

[APOLLO]

Printed valve gear ?. Probably this will make it

 

https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/new-hyproline-system-capable-of-high-speed-mass-customization-of-metal-3d-printed-parts-67372/

 

Mind you, you'll need to be a millionaire to afford one today.

 

But in a few years ?

 

There is seemingly no end to technology advance.

 

Brit15

[Tony Wright]

I do think that like so much else 3D printing is just another tool in the toolbox to be used as and when needed where it is found suitable for the job in hand, and it's a technology that is still in the early stages and developing in response to the needs of those trying to use it. There seems to be this idea that when something new appears all that went before somehow suddenly becomes redundent rather than it compliments what already exists, and this attitude has gained ground in more recent times with the advent of computor technology, where indeed it is often the case that new generations of designs of hardware and software do actually replace and make redundent the previous ones. But this doesn't apply wholesale to all aspects of life. I am sure a mix of etched/cast/3D printed and yes, hand made parts made from card/plastic/metal, will remain in existance for as long as modelling itself exits.

 

Izzy

It's probably true that throughout all railway modelling history, new technologies have appeared and been perceived to make the methods/products preceding them redundant, rather than being complementary. May I cite an example, please? 

 

It's probably well-known that I have a liking for Jamieson kits. They are really (to me) the second stage in scratch-building, where all the major parts have been cut-out and formed for you. There are, though, no tabs or slots for accurate registration and fitting of the parts and no surface detail. Though, as mentioned, the major parts are pre-formed, some further forming is usually necessary. For no other reason than recently finding a dusty Jamieson box on an even more dusty shelf, I've started making the Lord Nelson inside. I have (obviously) no need of it, but a friend models the Southern and I'm sure he could be tempted. A few years ago, I built a Craftsman LN and that etched brass kit immediately made the Jamieson one redundant. In comparison it was so much easier to build, though things like beading still had to be fixed on. Bachmann then brought out an RTR one (is it any good?). The thing is, though, I enjoy building locomotives in the 'traditional' way. They have a 'presence' to me that no plastic/RTR/3D-printed equivalent can possess, especially sheet-metal locos. I admit, it's a personal point of view, but to take up Tony Gee's point, locos made in this way can become even more 'special' as they become rarer and rarer. 

 

Today, two dear old friends came round to run the railway. We had the usual good time (thanks Keith and Ray), the layout ran perfectly (we didn't, or rather I didn't) and after running the sequence we just ran a few more trains and chatted away about what was new to see. A brand new RTR loco was presented and it was complimented upon. However, far more interest was shown in a newly-constructed brass B17, a re-worked Gem Super D and a brass van I'm building. This is our choice, of course, and all can please themselves. None of us have the cerebral skills to design a programme for the production of a locomotive via a computer, though all of us build our locos and stock - by 'traditional' means. As long as the likes of us 'old gits' are still around then we'll continue to build our stuff in the 'old-fashioned' way.That doesn't mean a rejection of what's to come (some of the new technologies are capable of producing outstanding models), it's just that, we hope, there'll still be the necessary bits and pieces available for us to carry on. Who knows?