Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

Is it because diesel-outline RTR was better than steam-outline RTR, at least 20 years ago?

Tony, perhaps it was the converse - that diesel loco kits were so awful compared to steam loco kits.

[Buhar]

Hi Tony

 

I am in full agreement about their looks and have considered a wire loop replacement many times. I will get round to it one day.

Well Clive, if you abandoned your plan to model the entire EE Type 4 fleet you might find the time .

[great central]

Thanks for posting the Nottingham photographs.  As far as I am concerned, the wrong station was closed.  Not only that, but the Victoria Centre could have been built over the station-surely a win for everyone?  So, a segregated high speed line with a station facing the right way-North-South is obliterated in favour of an inconvenient East-West Midland layout with crossings and trains having to reverse going north.  I regard chopping down the GC viaduct over Midland and then realising a bridge was needed for the trams as the icing on the cake.  Plus they demolished the Gay Dog-one of my favourite pubs when obliterating Victoria station.  The centre of Nottingham generally has suffered badly at the hands of developers, and lost it's individual character years ago-even if the Trip to Jerusalem is still there.

 

Funnily enough I'm sure I remember when the Vic centre was first opened the sign above the Milton St/Parliament St entrance proclaimed that it was the way in to the Victoria Centre (obviously) , Station (!) and Bus station (which was of course a quarter mile away at the other end completely!).

Walked around Nottingham a week or two back while on a long break, not been into 'town' in years. All I can say politely is YUCK!! 

[Clive Mortimore]

Tony, perhaps it was the converse - that diesel loco kits were so awful compared to steam loco kits.

When I started to build diesel locos back in the early 80s there were not many diesel loco kit manufacturers around. There was MTK, Colin did try to give us modellers a wide range of kits, some types of diesel and electric unit have only ever been available from his range. It was a bit hit and miss if you got an "this is alright" one or a "what are these lumps of metal". I have seen some wonderfully made MTK kits, I have a lot of part built ones in boxes.

Craftsman done some DMU and loco conversion kits which made nice models and a couple of diesel shunters, I have made their Yorkshire Engine 0-4-0.

 

DJH entered the field with a white metal version of the Yorkshire Engine loco, pity really that they doubled up on the same type of loco as another kit manufacturer had already made. They then went on and made a Class 25/3 in brass. This model was given rave reviews in the model press. I have one, the drive mechanism isn't that brilliant. The one I have, which I didn't make, is well made but doesn't look that good and to be honest my conversion of a Hornby 25/2 looked better. 

 

Then came Modern Outline Kits with there wonderful brass locos and Dave Alexander with his really good white metal locos. I have a couple of MOK locos one still to be made when I have a week or so to myself. I only have one Alexander kit as I had already scratchbuilt the types of loco I wanted from his range. If anyone has an unmade Class 15 and they wish to pass it on let me know as I want to have a go at building one. It looks better than then Heljan RTR one. 

 

Somewhere in the middle of this were some one off, one being a Swindon/Paxman 0-6-0 (class 14) by a company calling themselves Constructeon (I think that is how they spelt it) with an early computer designed etched kit. I did build one it was always a poor runner and was in may ways over complicated. The odd thing is their Swindon/Paxman 0-6-0 is smaller than the Dave Alexander one when placed side by side. When I checked the dimensions both were wrong, one too small and one too big, but not enough that they look wrong next to rolling stock or other locos except when sat next to each other.

 

I have just remembered A1 models, never did by one of their loco kits, they were in the same league as MTK and did not do any classes I wanted.

 

Summary of older diesel kits, Modern Outline and Dave Alexander on a par with the contemporary better steam kits. 

DJH, and Craftsman were OK but the range was limited.

MTK and A1 models, I am sure there were steam kits as bad as these but not maligned as much because after all these were diesel kits.  Well MTK did give us a huge range if at times when opening the box you wondered what you had.

[Tony Wright]

Hi GC,

   Yes, I went all the way around, and through the shopping mall twice! I've got a few more pics, of here, Bulwell Common and Weekday Cross, if Tony approves? So much more has disappeared, the remains of Weekday Cross have finally been flattened.    BK

Why do you need my approval? 

 

Post away, please.

 

If nothing else, this thread is wide ranging and extremely eclectic. 

[jrg1]

When I started to build diesel locos back in the early 80s there were not many diesel loco kit manufacturers around. There was MTK, Colin did try to give us modellers a wide range of kits, some types of diesel and electric unit have only ever been available from his range. It was a bit hit and miss if you got an "this is alright" one or a "what are these lumps of metal". I have seen some wonderfully made MTK kits, I have a lot of part built ones in boxes.

Craftsman done some DMU and loco conversion kits which made nice models and a couple of diesel shunters, I have made their Yorkshire Engine 0-4-0.

 

DJH entered the field with a white metal version of the Yorkshire Engine loco, pity really that they doubled up on the same type of loco as another kit manufacturer had already made. They then went on and made a Class 25/3 in brass. This model was given rave reviews in the model press. I have one, the drive mechanism isn't that brilliant. The one I have, which I didn't make, is well made but doesn't look that good and to be honest my conversion of a Hornby 25/2 looked better. 

 

Then came Modern Outline Kits with there wonderful brass locos and Dave Alexander with his really good white metal locos. I have a couple of MOK locos one still to be made when I have a week or so to myself. I only have one Alexander kit as I had already scratchbuilt the types of loco I wanted from his range. If anyone has an unmade Class 15 and they wish to pass it on let me know as I want to have a go at building one. It looks better than then Heljan RTR one. 

 

Somewhere in the middle of this were some one off, one being a Swindon/Paxman 0-6-0 (class 14) by a company calling themselves Constructeon (I think that is how they spelt it) with an early computer designed etched kit. I did build one it was always a poor runner and was in may ways over complicated. The odd thing is their Swindon/Paxman 0-6-0 is smaller than the Dave Alexander one when placed side by side. When I checked the dimensions both were wrong, one too small and one too big, but not enough that they look wrong next to rolling stock or other locos except when sat next to each other.

 

I have just remembered A1 models, never did by one of their loco kits, they were in the same league as MTK and did not do any classes I wanted.

 

Summary of older diesel kits, Modern Outline and Dave Alexander on a par with the contemporary better steam kits. 

DJH, and Craftsman were OK but the range was limited.

MTK and A1 models, I am sure there were steam kits as bad as these but not maligned as much because after all these were diesel kits.  Well MTK did give us a huge range if at times when opening the box you wondered what you had.

MOK did an etched kit for the class 14-it may still be available to special order.

You did not mention the uniquely dire Q kits-I had kit for 18100, and the resin/glass fibre body was still sticky when I opened the kit box

[Mallard60022]

Funnily enough I'm sure I remember when the Vic centre was first opened the sign above the Milton St/Parliament St entrance proclaimed that it was the way in to the Victoria Centre (obviously) , Station (!) and Bus station (which was of course a quarter mile away at the other end completely!).

Walked around Nottingham a week or two back while on a long break, not been into 'town' in years. All I can say politely is YUCK!! 

Trams in the main square look good though; quite continental.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Little diversion from couplings if I may. Searching out the old GC, and the remains of other railways in the Nottingham City area, makes for a very interesting day out and about (at least a good warm and sunny day). Two days if you want to do a real search and take photo's. It is also best done by car (in the main) although if very fit, a bike would be better. My interest in an exploration of the area was aroused when I worked at Trent Bridge house briefly in 2004/5 and used to get the train from Retford, via Worksop when I wanted a trip with interest (that took twice the time of a car drive).

I have done that exploration (by car, with a companion) and it is really sad and I only went as far north as Hucknall and as far south east as Colwick. To the 'knowing eye' it is possible to recognise quite a lot of the old route north (and the diversion east to Colwick). Following that with sitting and looking at relevant books and maps, preferably at home with a nice Single Malt or good Brandy or both, is both enlightening and shocking. I never knew Nottingham except for a fleeting visit to the MR Shed in April/May '63 and some passing by views whilst on Shed bash trips in the 70s/80s, so I do not suffer as those that knew the  huge system that was so alive and interesting in steam days.  

I've gone all nostalgic now and must resist going on an internet search as there is so much info out there about the London Extension.

Thanks,

Phil

[Brian Kirby]

MOK did an etched kit for the class 14-it may still be available to special order.

You did not mention the uniquely dire Q kits-I had kit for 18100, and the resin/glass fibre body was still sticky when I opened the kit box

I remember buying a new Q Kits Class 40, about 30 odd years ago, the idea was to plonk it on a then new, Mainline Peak chassis, how times have changed? Opening the box, you were instantly repelled by the stink of uncured resin, a 4mm answer to smelling salts, the pong was really over-powering, plus it had already been sprayed in grey primer by Messrs Q, which probably prolonged any curing. The longer I had it, the more it stunk the house out, I decided this baby had to go. Working at KX Models, I knocked it out unmade in our secondhand window, to someone braver than me, it sold very quickly, such was the clamour for an EE Type 4 back then, the only alternative was the odd-shaped Jouef. At least I got my money back. Then along came the Lima version, to rescue us from such nightmares.   BK

[Brian Kirby]

Trams in the main square look good though; quite continental.

Phil

I hadn't been back to Nottingham for over 30 years, ironically last time was just when they were demolishing the GigantiC girder bridge over the Midland station. As a visitor last Saturday, I was impressed by the city centre and many elegant buildings, the castle and the tranquility of the private roads west of the latter, although there are some rough bits, like the vicinity of Weekday Cross. The Victoria Centre is a huge ugly complex, looking like something from the austere Soviet Bloc, but at least it does it's job as an extremely busy shopping mall. The trams are a good way of getting around, although riding inside feels like being a 4mm figure on someone's train set, with setrack points and curves. The tram even halted at a stop without a name, a local passenger said "nobody could think of one, so they named it after the postcode (NG2)"!    BK

[Clive Mortimore]

MOK did an etched kit for the class 14-it may still be available to special order.

You did not mention the uniquely dire Q kits-I had kit for 18100, and the resin/glass fibre body was still sticky when I opened the kit box

I am still waiting for conformation that MOK are doing their 350hp shunter kit, I sent my e-mail of interest three may be four years ago. I am not sure he wants to be involved with 4mm kits any more.

 

As for Q Kits, never had one. Therefore I could not comment on how bad they were, I am sure they were on a par with BEC models. See Brian's review.

[jrg1]

I am still waiting for conformation that MOK are doing their 350hp shunter kit, I sent my e-mail of interest three may be four years ago. I am not sure he wants to be involved with 4mm kits any more.

 

As for Q Kits, never had one. Therefore I could not comment on how bad they were, I am sure they were on a par with BEC models. See Brian's review.

I believe MOK are currently asking for expressions of interest for the class 08.

Not sure what BEC kits were like-Q Kits were about the worst in my experience

[Clive Mortimore]

I remember buying a new Q Kits Class 40, about 30 odd years ago, the idea was to plonk it on a then new, Mainline Peak chassis, how times have changed? Opening the box, you were instantly repelled by the stink of uncured resin, a 4mm answer to smelling salts, the pong was really over-powering, plus it had already been sprayed in grey primer by Messrs Q, which probably prolonged any curing. The longer I had it, the more it stunk the house out, I decided this baby had to go. Working at KX Models, I knocked it out unmade in our secondhand window, to someone braver than me, it sold very quickly, such was the clamour for an EE Type 4 back then, the only alternative was the odd-shaped Jouef. At least I got my money back. Then along came the Lima version, to rescue us from such nightmares.   BK

Hi Brian

 

If you go back to my post with the line up of type 4s the handbuilt one at the back was made when you could no longer get the Jouef model. I was very disappointed with the Lima model when I found that I could make one of a better shape than they could.

[MJI]

I have seen MTK Q Kit and A1

 

MTK castings are bad

 

Aluminium EMUs were OK, no better than that. (I am part way through building  a 4TC for 25 years for someone!!!!)

 

Q kits, smelly resin

 

A1 hard to make etched kits, I have a 80% complete 05 to finish off one day.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Brian

 

If you go back to my post with the line up of type 4s the handbuilt one at the back was made when you could no longer get the Jouef model. I was very disappointed with the Lima model when I found that I could make one of a better shape than they could.

 

You didn't buy the kit secondhand in London, did you? :-))

Apart from the resin stink, I seem to recall the Q Class 40 was not a bad shape, better than the obese Jouef 40. I always liked the Lima 40, although the snouts/noses are a bit on the deep side, even better when you put two motor bogies in, and get rid of the traction tyres, either by re-wheeling or turning the Lima wheels down. I even put one Lima body on a Bachmann 40 chassis, before Bachmann improved their body, a couple of years ago.   BK

[lanchester]

In the 19th century literature you will see terms like "Scotch express" and even "Flying Scotchman".  Whilst "Scots" is the modern usage that doesn't necessarily make it correct for the terms used on the railway at the time.

Spelling is a minefield. In the 19th century 'Scotch' seems to have been common useage and not particularly pejorative. Thee is a parallel with Wales - one regiment remained the Royal WELCH Fusiliers even though others used 'Welsh'.

 

Away from nationalities, there are other railway-related spelling changes: for example, in the days of 'City of Truro', the valve gear would have included 'excentrics', not 'eccentrics' as we have them now. Why? Who knows.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I'm still waiting for someone to post a definitive history of MTK, Colin Masssingham, and El Crappo.  They have almost mythical status in my mind, belonging to the prehistoric era of mist and legend.  I recall seeing an impressive 'modern image' layout in the Railway Modeller circa 1978 or thereabouts which featured multiple MTK kits.  How the fella had managed to make so many, I have no idea.  They looked vaguely like BR diesels I suppose.  Then there was Colin Boocock and his push pull 33/1s knocked up from Triang AL5s I think.

 

The things folk had to do to get models of thier favourite locos, no box opening in those days,  

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for posting the Nottingham photographs.  As far as I am concerned, the wrong station was closed.  Not only that, but the Victoria Centre could have been built over the station-surely a win for everyone?  So, a segregated high speed line with a station facing the right way-North-South is obliterated in favour of an inconvenient East-West Midland layout with crossings and trains having to reverse going north.  I regard chopping down the GC viaduct over Midland and then realising a bridge was needed for the trams as the icing on the cake.  Plus they demolished the Gay Dog-one of my favourite pubs when obliterating Victoria station.  The centre of Nottingham generally has suffered badly at the hands of developers, and lost it's individual character years ago-even if the Trip to Jerusalem is still there.

 

Seeing photos of Nottingham Victoria as built, you realize what a jewel we have lost. Originally the end screens of the train shed were glazed with ornate ironwork, the light from the lanterns within used to project out at night. I suspect the hideous corrugated cladding was added as an air raid precaution during wartime, cloaking any escaping brightness. If it had to close as a station, why didn't they convert the existing building into a retail market, instead of tearing it down, I suspect land values and the wish to build high was the reason, wasn't Poulson involved?

     As regards the line and station closure, there were rumours to close it in the 1950s, Dr. Beeching put the final boot in, his remit was to cut railway expenses, he didn't approve of route duplication and aimed to centralize services into fewer railway hubs in each city. The advantage of the London Extension, was that it was relatively free of conflicting lines, so traffic could roll freely, but this was also it's dis-advantage, it didn't connect very well with other railways, whereas the Midland lines formed an area network. On the other hand Nottingham Victoria was slap bang in the middle of the city, Nottingham Midland was a fifteen minute walk south of the city.  Both Midland and GC lines to Sheffield, were plagued by heavy speed restrictions in the 1950s and 60s, caused by mining subsidence, there was only enough money available, to rectify one route. I believe it took GC expresses almost one hour, to and from Sheffield, because of this problem. 

    Apart from not saving NV, the other great crime was in not preserving the route alignment for further use. Instead everything got bulldozed and built upon, all the way from the River Trent to Bulwell and beyond. As mentioned above, tracing the route on maps or Google Earth is tricky, you have to know where to look, evidence is often post-1970s houses built in a north-south row. They should have protected the abandoned route, so a later use could be found, be it tram, HS2, monorail, or even an awful guided busway (sorry about that last one).    BK

Edited September 22, 2016 by Brian Kirby

[5050]

The MOK Class 14 made up quite nicely although there are some errors and omissions in the body.  The chassis was intended to be built 'compensated' but I reckon the designer possibly thought that just having elements of it rocking and swinging made it thus.  The way it was supposed to go together didn't.  I just used the sideframes, drove the wheels via the fixed fly-crank axle and had the single axle pivoting in the centre and the 'double' axles with 2 side beams.  Typical 1980's drive system, TA12 and lost wax motor/gear mount with Romford 40:1.  Very good BITD but I would do it differently now of course.  Hopefully it will see the light of day again on my Forest of Dean 'Drybrook Road' layout along with possibly a rewheeled Heljan one.

 

Here it is on my 'Lower Pandy' layout back in the last century.

 

That still sound a bit weird doesn't it?  Especially to those of us who have been around for quite a while......................

 

[Clive Mortimore]

You didn't buy the kit secondhand in London, did you? :-))

Apart from the resin stink, I seem to recall the Q Class 40 was not a bad shape, better than the obese Jouef 40. I always liked the Lima 40, although the snouts/noses are a bit on the deep side, even better when you put two motor bogies in, and get rid of the traction tyres, either by re-wheeling or turning the Lima wheels down. I even put one Lima body on a Bachmann 40 chassis, before Bachmann improved their body, a couple of years ago.   BK

Hi Brian

 

I went from doing conversions of RTR to scratchbuilding leaving out kits until later on in life.

 

 

Here is another view of the same line up this time with my scratchbuilt Whistler on the right. I feel even after 30 years since I built it, it looks more like a 40 than many of the RTR offerings before and after. The other loco which has a very good shape is the elongated Tri-ang 37 (4th from the right), I must get round to doing something with its windscreens.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Clive Mortimore

[richard i]

Spelling is a minefield. In the 19th century 'Scotch' seems to have been common useage and not particularly pejorative. Thee is a parallel with Wales - one regiment remained the Royal WELCH Fusiliers even though others used 'Welsh'.

 

Away from nationalities, there are other railway-related spelling changes: for example, in the days of 'City of Truro', the valve gear would have included 'excentrics', not 'eccentrics' as we have them now. Why? Who knows.

During World War One the Royal Welch were asked if they would like to become a guards regiment to raise spirits in Wales. They refused because they were told they would have to change the spelling of Welch. So a new regiment was started from scratch, the Welsh guards. On such little things does life turn.

Richard

[johnarcher]

Viewers of a nervous disposition, look away now please...

 

Here's the state of progress on my Cambrian 2-4-0, which by universal agreement had the worst castings anyone had seen. Not to be daunted, though, I've set about doing my best to fill in the pitting, restore missing bits and so on, using low-melt solder and filler. 

 

I decided that I needed to blast a quick coat of paint on to get a sense of how things were going, as it's hard to judge these things in the bare metal.

 

cambrian4.jpg

 

Obviously there's some way to go, but I'm happy that it's heading in the right direction.

 

I haven't attached the chimney, dome, etc yet as I wanted to be able to neaten up the boiler as far as possible before adding these bits. In this case, since there aren't locating holes, I'll be fixing them on with epoxy to allow fine adjustment during drying. Everything else is soldered so far, though. Incidentally the slight gap between the smokebox saddle and footplate is deliberate, on my part, as I didn't feel that the boiler was sitting level otherwise. It will be filled in due course.

 

Alastair (Barry Ten)

Please keep us up to date with this, I've been wondering whether to give one a go. You've done wonders with the castings

[jrg1]

The MOK Class 14 made up quite nicely although there are some errors and omissions in the body.  The chassis was intended to be built 'compensated' but I reckon the designer possibly thought that just having elements of it rocking and swinging made it thus.  The way it was supposed to go together didn't.  I just used the sideframes, drove the wheels via the fixed fly-crank axle and had the single axle pivoting in the centre and the 'double' axles with 2 side beams.  Typical 1980's drive system, TA12 and lost wax motor/gear mount with Romford 40:1.  Very good BITD but I would do it differently now of course.  Hopefully it will see the light of day again on my Forest of Dean 'Drybrook Road' layout along with possibly a rewheeled Heljan one.

 

Here it is on my 'Lower Pandy' layout back in the last century.

 

That still sound a bit weird doesn't it?  Especially to those of us who have been around for quite a while......................

 

LOWER PANDY (8B).jpg

An impressive build, reminding me that it was rather weirder seeing the class 14 production line, with a brace of them being erected at Swindon as the perfect answer to general duty motive power unit-and then seeing them discarded half a decade later.  I have a photograph somewhere of on example relocated to Goole, and trundling across the Isle of Ancholme, in a vain bid to find a purpose for the class.  Still, one at least found a use on the Channel Tunnel project.  Wonder what the write-off costs for the class were?

[jrg1]

Seeing photos of Nottingham Victoria as built, you realize what a jewel we have lost. Originally the end screens of the train shed were glazed with ornate ironwork, the light from the lanterns within used to project out at night. I suspect the hideous corrugated cladding was added as an air raid precaution during wartime, cloaking any escaping brightness. If it had to close as a station, why didn't they convert the existing building into a retail market, instead of tearing it down, I suspect land values and the wish to build high was the reason, wasn't Poulson involved?

     As regards the line and station closure, there were rumours to close it in the 1950s, Dr. Beeching put the final boot in, his remit was to cut railway expenses, he didn't approve of route duplication and aimed to centralize services into fewer railway hubs in each city. The advantage of the London Extension, was that it was relatively free of conflicting lines, so traffic could roll freely, but this was also it's dis-advantage, it didn't connect very well with other railways, whereas the Midland lines formed an area network. On the other hand Nottingham Victoria was slap bang in the middle of the city, Nottingham Midland was a fifteen minute walk south of the city.  Both Midland and GC lines to Sheffield, were plagued by heavy speed restrictions in the 1950s and 60s, caused by mining subsidence, there was only enough money available, to rectify one route. I believe it took GC expresses almost one hour, to and from Sheffield, because of this problem. 

    Apart from not saving NV, the other great crime was in not preserving the route alignment for further use. Instead everything got bulldozed and built upon, all the way from the River Trent to Bulwell and beyond. As mentioned above, tracing the route on maps or Google Earth is tricky, you have to know where to look, evidence is often post-1970s houses built in a north-south row. They should have protected the abandoned route, so a later use could be found, be it tram, HS2, monorail, or even an awful guided busway (sorry about that last one).    BK

Thanks for the reminder, Brian.  I feel Beeching's remit was to reduce the role of the railway in favour of roads, and the crudity of the plan's execution means the UK is still feeling the adverse effects today.  Let's not forget that the second instalment of the Beeching plan took his ideas to extremes, and with huge swathes of the country denuded of rail connections, the plan was quietly dropped.  Returning to Nottingham, and making the GC the primary route between Leicester and Sheffield would have seen the removal of the Midland line through the city, and the associated rail yards could have been relocated on the north side or Colwick-out of way.  An opportunity, along with a segregated railway, lost.  Just why the Midland was preferred, instead of melding the best of the two together, beats me.  Crude bean counting, I suppose-same a prefering the Hope Valley line over Woodhead; no thought for the future at all.

As for obliterating routes, the folly of this should be apparent-what is wrong with preserving the width of the Right-Of-Way?  

After Adelaide's experience with a guided busway, awful is a suitable description.

[Mallard60022]

An impressive build, reminding me that it was rather weirder seeing the class 14 production line, with a brace of them being erected at Swindon as the perfect answer to general duty motive power unit-and then seeing them discarded half a decade later.  I have a photograph somewhere of on example relocated to Goole, and trundling across the Isle of Ancholme, in a vain bid to find a purpose for the class.  Still, one at least found a use on the Channel Tunnel project.  Wonder what the write-off costs for the class were?

I have learnt today of the The Isle on Ancholme and yet it is but a short distance from 36E, where I have been allocated for almost 14 years. I should get out more (and if I were a fit cyclist that would be an ideal area in which to exercise my bike).

Phil