Wright writes.....

[Focalplane]

May I speak absolute heresy, please?

 

I didn't like the A4s in the 1950s and they still don't turn me on today, despite all the song and dance, was it only last year?  It's really all in the streamlining, which I find simply ugly.  The underpinnings obviously worked well.

 

I know people will say, you grew up too far west to understand Gresley et al.  Yes, I did and I would have to say that if those Princess Coronations had not been stripped of their bathtubs I would have hated them as well.  There were very few streamlined locos I could embrace apart from the Southern Pacific Daylights, but they were not exactly cloaked in sheet metal, you could still see they were steam locomotives.  The SP's marketing was cleverer than anyones while making the locomotives easier to service.

 

Streamlining was primarily an early foray into marketing for the sake of marketing.  William Stanier is reputed to have scoffed at the bathtub scenario, while the Collett attempts at bulbous noses were simply hilarious.  The A4s only managed, again in my very humble opinion, to retain their casing because of Mallard's dangerous attempt at a speed record.  The LMS called the whole thing off after breaking a few dinner plates south of Crewe and sanity prevailed.

 

After 1939 the truth caught up with the Big Four and later BR.  Ease of maintenance and reliability became the requirement and quite rightly so.  But the mainstream could not accept the truth, otherwise we would not have derogatory nicknames like "Flying Pig", "Mickey Mouse", etc. for the post war designs that fundamentally copied what North American designers had known for decades - ease of maintenance simply worked.

 

I could say I'll get my coat and leave, but I am already far enough away to avoid any missiles, so let me have it if you can throw 1,000 kilometers!

[thegreenhowards]

May I speak absolute heresy, please?

 

I didn't like the A4s in the 1950s and they still don't turn me on today, despite all the song and dance, was it only last year?  It's really all in the streamlining, which I find simply ugly.  The underpinnings obviously worked well.

 

I know people will say, you grew up too far west to understand Gresley et al.  Yes, I did and I would have to say that if those Princess Coronations had not been stripped of their bathtubs I would have hated them as well.  There were very few streamlined locos I could embrace apart from the Southern Pacific Daylights, but they were not exactly cloaked in sheet metal, you could still see they were steam locomotives.  The SP's marketing was cleverer than anyones while making the locomotives easier to service.

 

Streamlining was primarily an early foray into marketing for the sake of marketing.  William Stanier is reputed to have scoffed at the bathtub scenario, while the Collett attempts at bulbous noses were simply hilarious.  The A4s only managed, again in my very humble opinion, to retain their casing because of Mallard's dangerous attempt at a speed record.  The LMS called the whole thing off after breaking a few dinner plates south of Crewe and sanity prevailed.

 

After 1939 the truth caught up with the Big Four and later BR.  Ease of maintenance and reliability became the requirement and quite rightly so.  But the mainstream could not accept the truth, otherwise we would not have derogatory nicknames like "Flying Pig", "Mickey Mouse", etc. for the post war designs that fundamentally copied what North American designers had known for decades - ease of maintenance simply worked.

 

I could say I'll get my coat and leave, but I am already far enough away to avoid any missiles, so let me have it if you can throw 1,000 kilometers!

I think I agree with you about the streamlining. I certainly prefer an A3 to an A4 - surely the ultimate in grace. Both both are infinitely preferable to anything with copper on its chimney.

[4630]

May I speak absolute heresy, please?

 

I didn't like the A4s in the 1950s and they still don't turn me on today, despite all the song and dance, was it only last year?  It's really all in the streamlining, which I find simply ugly.  The underpinnings obviously worked well.

 

After 1939 the truth caught up with the Big Four and later BR.  Ease of maintenance and reliability became the requirement and quite rightly so.  But the mainstream could not accept the truth, otherwise we would not have derogatory nicknames like "Flying Pig", "Mickey Mouse", etc. for the post war designs that fundamentally copied what North American designers had known for decades - ease of maintenance simply worked.

 

I could say I'll get my coat and leave, but I am already far enough away to avoid any missiles, so let me have it if you can throw 1,000 kilometers!

 

 

You'd best pass me my coat at the same time as yours Paul, as I completely agree with you !

 

There's something rugged and purposeful about something like say, a Bulleid Q1.

Edited February 7, 2017 by 4630

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

There's something rugged and purposeful about something like say, a Bulleid Q1.

That is because it was designed for  a particular job and built to the requirements of the time and is thus a prime example of first class engineering.

The A4 on the other hand was partly built as a PR exercise and was a copy of what the motor trade was already doing.

Bernard, rapidly heading for the air raid shelter.

[Dick Turpin]

Bernard, rapidly heading for the air raid shelter.

I wouldn't bother, there's a Grand Slam demolition bomb whistling towards it as we speak!

Edited February 7, 2017 by Dick Turpin

[Mallard60022]

Bulleid Q1. The ultimate in austerity design at the time I believe.

I might not have A4s in my top 5 loco's I really think are beautiful, however their whistles, oh those whistles, especially when Doppler is engaged. Goose bumps. That sound is almost as good as a Bulleid Pacific whistle.

Sadly the A3 whistle wasn't that wonderful if Scotsman's is anything to go by.

A. Chimer. 

[APOLLO]

For me the Britannia's have the most melodic chime whistle in the UK - closely followed by the A4.

 

Can't remember which one but one of the Talyllyn railways steam locos had (has) a beautiful sounding chime whistle. Bit like a Brit.

 

Brit15

[Headstock]

That is because it was designed for  a particular job and built to the requirements of the time and is thus a prime example of first class engineering.

The A4 on the other hand was partly built as a PR exercise and was a copy of what the motor trade was already doing.

Bernard, rapidly heading for the air raid shelter.

 

Oh come on, Bulleid was a one-man publicity department. Everything about the visual appearance of his locomotives, including his work on the A4, was designed with an eye for publicity.

[Tony Wright]

Good to see you and Mo again yesterday Tony, and both looking so well, as well, and I'll be in touch about a visit in April / May and really looking forward to it again, thanks.

 

Interesting discussion about Back Scenes as I always do my own when I can, the most difficult to get right was my N Gauge one on Glenfinick.

Glenfinick June 2013 120.JPG

 

Glenfinick June 2013 038.JPG

 

Glenfinick June 2013 013.JPG

 

Glenfinick June 2013 123.JPG

Click on the image for a better view of the Mountains

EDIT = Sorry about the Blue Boxes Tony.

Andy,

 

That's beautiful - thanks for posting. Good to see you looking well as well.  

 

Don't apologise for blue boxes. I'm writing my fourth book for Irwell featuring them.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Dick Turpin]

Oh come on, Bulleid was a one-man publicity department. Everything about the visual appearance of his locomotives, including his work on the A4, was designed with an eye for publicity.

A genius in short...

[Headstock]

A genius in short...

 

Quite possibly.

[Tony Wright]

Having only seen the very few photos of this Loco on this forum, it either hasn't sold very well or its very shy ? .

 

Tony, looking at the photo you have posted I am very surprised that you are saying its the equal of other r.t.r A4's .I would only consider the Hornby version for comparison as the Golden Age version at £1250 plus vat and delivery belongs to another world !.

 

The first very obvious big problem is the large gap between Firebox, Cab and Footplate.

On further looking , Vacumn Return pipe looks oversized/heavy in appearance, Cab Windows look very small not helped by the frames being painted Grey. Poorly defined Side Access Hatches which are almost disapearing below the paint in places. Heavy appearance again for the Washout Plugs and Cab Doors not helped by being part of the Cab casting. Bogie wheels look odd. Bugatti Nose front area too flat ?. Front Lamps wires still very visible.

 

The only thing better is they have added the Fairing above the Water filler on the Tender.I have never seen any photos of the Cab Interior , Cab Roof or the  quality of the detail to the Tender interior or its front area. They have painted the Corridor Bellows in Grey that should be Black ? .  

 

Smoke effect appears to be quite good, as to Sound I detest it on Steam locos.

 

IMHO applies to all of these comments, until perhaps I see one in the flesh, perhaps at Ally Pally next month. 

Thanks Mick,

 

I'm taking on board the points of others. You're right in many cases, though I still think it's generally impressive. 

 

You mention the bogie wheels; I think they're far superior to Hornby's (which bogie wheels aren't?) and the whole thing does run very well, even on plain DC. It's more powerful than a Hornby A4 and at least the equal of a Golden Age one, though my kit-built ones still edge it. I put it on ten heavy Pullman cars and it just romped away (a Hornby A4 struggles with the same load). 

 

As for the smoke?

 

 

After 20 minutes' running, it gave me a cough!

[Headstock]

Thanks Mick,

 

I'm taking on board the points of others. You're right in many cases, though I still think it's generally impressive. 

 

You mention the bogie wheels; I think they're far superior to Hornby's (which bogie wheels aren't?) and the whole thing does run very well, even on plain DC. It's more powerful than a Hornby A4 and at least the equal of a Golden Age one, though my kit-built ones still edge it. I put it on ten heavy Pullman cars and it just romped away (a Hornby A4 struggles with the same load). 

 

As for the smoke?

 

Dapol Black Label A4 13.jpg

 

After 20 minutes' running, it gave me a cough!

Tony,

 

the model certainly seems to be built of quality materials, what a shame that the real engine was scrapped when it was so close to being saved by Butlins.

[bbishop]

That is because it was designed for  a particular job and built to the requirements of the time and is thus a prime example of first class engineering.

 

 

No it wasn't.  It must have been the most powerful locomotive on a power to weight ratio, but it couldn't stop a freight train.  I think a SR driver would only take out a Charlie on a train of more than 29 wagons if it had a fitted head.

 

A story.  Someone asked me about the N and S15 classes.  The N was the SECR express goods loco and weighed 70 tons.  The S15 was the LSWR express goods loco and weighed 90 tons.  Why the difference?  Simples.  The S15 could stop the Tavy from sighting the distant to reaching the home.  And remember that LSWR freight trains didn't hang around.

 

Bill

[Tony Wright]

May I speak absolute heresy, please?

 

I didn't like the A4s in the 1950s and they still don't turn me on today, despite all the song and dance, was it only last year?  It's really all in the streamlining, which I find simply ugly.  The underpinnings obviously worked well.

 

I know people will say, you grew up too far west to understand Gresley et al.  Yes, I did and I would have to say that if those Princess Coronations had not been stripped of their bathtubs I would have hated them as well.  There were very few streamlined locos I could embrace apart from the Southern Pacific Daylights, but they were not exactly cloaked in sheet metal, you could still see they were steam locomotives.  The SP's marketing was cleverer than anyones while making the locomotives easier to service.

 

Streamlining was primarily an early foray into marketing for the sake of marketing.  William Stanier is reputed to have scoffed at the bathtub scenario, while the Collett attempts at bulbous noses were simply hilarious.  The A4s only managed, again in my very humble opinion, to retain their casing because of Mallard's dangerous attempt at a speed record.  The LMS called the whole thing off after breaking a few dinner plates south of Crewe and sanity prevailed.

 

After 1939 the truth caught up with the Big Four and later BR.  Ease of maintenance and reliability became the requirement and quite rightly so.  But the mainstream could not accept the truth, otherwise we would not have derogatory nicknames like "Flying Pig", "Mickey Mouse", etc. for the post war designs that fundamentally copied what North American designers had known for decades - ease of maintenance simply worked.

 

I could say I'll get my coat and leave, but I am already far enough away to avoid any missiles, so let me have it if you can throw 1,000 kilometers!

Opinions vary, Paul. 

 

I think the big difference with regard to the respective streamlining of the A4 and Princess Coronation is that, underneath the latter is a Duchess. Underneath the A4's streamlining it's just the same as any other loco - a lagged boiler. 

 

In what way was MALLARD's attempt at a speed record dangerous? Apart from the white metal in the middle big end melting, the loco ran perfectly; fast, very fast, faster than any steam loco before and 'definitely' since. Despite contrary claims as to the loco being 'smashed up', she was back on duty within a week, after an examination at the Plant. Had the CCE not imposed a speed restriction through Grantham on the day (he didn't know), the mighty duck would have cleared 130.00 mph. 

 

I put definitely in speech marks because I've read evidence that LORD FARINGDON, driven by Bill Hoole, must have gone faster in the summer of 1958. There was some hot-box detecting equipment installed between Essendine and Tallington, which shone an infra-red beam across the tracks (I thinks that's right, but I'm no engineer). Each passing train made a pattern according to its axles, and if one axle were above the right temperature, it would be detected. Obviously, a Pacific would produce a certain pattern, followed by the four-pattern of adjacent bogies in an express, and so on. A goods train with four-wheeled vans would produce a more uniform pattern. One train produced a continuous blur, and by counting back it was established it was an Up express hauled by 60034. Extrapolating the information, the speed near Greatford was over 120.00 mph! Observers suggest Hoole must have beaten MALLARD's record by some margin to be going that fast on the level, probably at Little Bytham. Nothing was said at the time, but I wish I could remember where I read about it. 

 

In my opinion, the A4s (in Brunswick green) are among the most elegant of British steam locomotives. If you'd have seen them, and shrieked 'STREAK', 'STREAK' as one came into view, you'll have known what I mean. 

 

Just my opinion, of course. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Theakerr]

Off the current focus but bearing in mind the focus of the people on this thread I thought appropriate to post here (Moderator please remove if you disagree).  i was going through a load of stuff and came across a duplicate of "Steam Bygones - A celebration of rail romance in North Lincolnshire"  It was published by the Grimsby Evening Telegraph on Saturday March 2, 1991 and contains a lot of pictures and a few articles.  It is in fair condition and is offered free to anyone who might be interested.  Since I live in the GWN there would be a postage fee that I am prepared to cover it if the recipient will donate the equivalent to a charity.  PM if interested.

[micklner]

Tony,

 

At £400 the Bogie wheels are the least of my concerns about the standard of detail and general looks !!!  Look at the Cab Doors and Cab windows in your  photo horrid  !! The Pale Colour I think exaggerates the details on the model in fairness to Dapol as already mentioned.

 

Smoke does look anaemic in the photo , Coughing !! perhaps someone has just got their bill.  

 

As for pulling power you can add a huge amount lead inside a Hornby A4 if needed. It must one of the easiest 4mm models to add weight too.

[Headstock]

Opinions vary, Paul. 

 

I think the big difference with regard to the respective streamlining of the A4 and Princess Coronation is that, underneath the latter is a Duchess. Underneath the A4's streamlining it's just the same as any other loco - a lagged boiler. 

 

In what way was MALLARD's attempt at a speed record dangerous? Apart from the white metal in the middle big end melting, the loco ran perfectly; fast, very fast, faster than any steam loco before and 'definitely' since. Despite contrary claims as to the loco being 'smashed up', she was back on duty within a week, after an examination at the Plant. Had the CCE not imposed a speed restriction through Grantham on the day (he didn't know), the mighty duck would have cleared 130.00 mph. 

 

I put definitely in speech marks because I've read evidence that LORD FARINGDON, driven by Bill Hoole, must have gone faster in the summer of 1958. There was some hot-box detecting equipment installed between Essendine and Tallington, which shone an infra-red beam across the tracks (I thinks that's right, but I'm no engineer). Each passing train made a pattern according to its axles, and if one axle were above the right temperature, it would be detected. Obviously, a Pacific would produce a certain pattern, followed by the four-pattern of adjacent bogies in an express, and so on. A goods train with four-wheeled vans would produce a more uniform pattern. One train produced a continuous blur, and by counting back it was established it was an Up express hauled by 60034. Extrapolating the information, the speed near Greatford was over 120.00 mph! Observers suggest Hoole must have beaten MALLARD's record by some margin to be going that fast on the level, probably at Little Bytham. Nothing was said at the time, but I wish I could remember where I read about it. 

 

In my opinion, the A4s (in Brunswick green) are among the most elegant of British steam locomotives. If you'd have seen them, and shrieked 'STREAK', 'STREAK' as one came into view, you'll have known what I mean. 

 

Just my opinion, of course. 

 

A number of people believed that the A4 should have been capable of exceeding 130 mph, including Andre Chapelon. A further attempt was planned to best Mallards record run but the outbreak of war put paid to the plan.

[Clive Mortimore]

You are all barking up the wrong tree, no steam locomotive could ever look as handsome as a Peak, be it hauling a train of 80 16 ton minerals rolling along at 25 mph or thundering past on an express.

 

"Just my opinion, of course."

[Headstock]

Tony,

 

At £400 the Bogie wheels are the least of my concerns about the standard of detail and general looks !!!  Look at the Cab Doors and Cab windows in your  photo horrid  !! The Pale Colour I think exaggerates the details on the model in fairness to Dapol as already mentioned.

 

Smoke does look anaemic in the photo , Coughing !! perhaps someone has just got their bill.

 

As for pulling power you can add a huge amount lead inside a Hornby A4 if needed. It must one of the easiest 4mm models to add weight too.

 

Evening Mick,

 

it can be made even better by the subtraction of the awful boiler bands and the substitution of a Comet chassis. I would have to agree with you however that the body is mostly more accurate than the Dapol version.

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

At £400 the Bogie wheels are the least of my concerns about the standard of detail and general looks !!!  Look at the Cab Doors and Cab windows in your  photo horrid  !! The Pale Colour I think exaggerates the details on the model in fairness to Dapol as already mentioned.

 

Smoke does look anaemic in the photo , Coughing !! perhaps someone has just got their bill.

 

As for pulling power you can add a huge amount lead inside a Hornby A4 if needed. It must one of the easiest 4mm models to add weight too.

Thanks again, Mick. 

 

Adding weight to a Hornby A4? I'd be careful, if the stripped gears on a couple I've had to try and fix in the last year are anything to go by. Someone else reported to me about motor/gear mesh problems with some recent Hornby locos, but I can't remember who it was. In fairness, those much-modified Hornby locos I still retain (four) run beautifully, given limited loads. 

 

I'm writing the review about the Dapol A4 tomorrow, so thanks again for your comments. I've checked the cab windows and they're about right but because the frames are painted grey, they look a bit small.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Focalplane]

Oh well, at least everyone knows what I think!  But I do agree with Mallard's namesake that the chime of an A4 is quite distinctive and a helluva lot better than a Fowler Patriot's!

 

As to the whole speed record thing, I understand that some of the track over which Mallard raced was not up to par, though I cannot quote the source.    Perhaps someone can?  And would you have liked to have been in that clerestory roofed dynamometer car at the time?

 

Express passenger locos never earned their bread and butter, it was the lowly 4Fs and similar that did, despite whatever design failings existed.  But there was something special about a Gordon or a Henry when in Sodor, and I always did feel good about being behind a King on the way to Paddington or a Jubilee on the way to Euston.  Neither was, of course, streamlined, but they did sterling service day in day out - 2 hours between London and Birmingham without HS2, long enough to enjoy a good meal!

[APOLLO]

I have an old Trix "Silver Link" A4 in LNER grey (similar livery to the Dapol). Bought back in the early 70's. She still runs well, and due to the traction tyres on the driving wheels she will still pull 'owt I put behind her. (As do both my my Trix A2 & A3). Well built models, though nowhere near today's detail standards - but they still run well after all the years.

 

Brit15

[Headstock]

Oh well, at least everyone knows what I think!  But I do agree with Mallard's namesake that the chime of an A4 is quite distinctive and a helluva lot better than a Fowler Patriot's!

 

As to the whole speed record thing, I understand that some of the track over which Mallard raced was not up to par, though I cannot quote the source.    Perhaps someone can?  And would you have liked to have been in that clerestory roofed dynamometer car at the time?

 

Express passenger locos never earned their bread and butter, it was the lowly 4Fs and similar that did, despite whatever design failings existed.  But there was something special about a Gordon or a Henry when in Sodor, and I always did feel good about being behind a King on the way to Paddington or a Jubilee on the way to Euston.  Neither was, of course, streamlined, but they did sterling service day in day out - 2 hours between London and Birmingham without HS2, long enough to enjoy a good meal!

 

I must admit I have a soft sport for the Fowler Patriots, oh well back to the brake gear on my LMS fitted van, even less glamorous than a 4F so I'm told.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Headstock

[Headstock]

P.S.

 

I'm genuinely fairly neutral on the appearance of the A4's. However, I defy anybody to listen to the Peter Hanford recording 'Triumph of an A4' and not fall in love with them just a little bit.