Wright writes.....

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

Also at Ally Pally was a layout based on the railways behind the lines on the western front in WW1.  I felt uneasy about this, and thought the concept was in pretty poor taste, all things considered.  Am I being over-sensitive?  There clearly are historical episodes involving railways which are best left alone, and is this one of them?

 

Tone

 

Many years ago I recorded a few interviews with a British Army Soldier who had served on the railway in Berlin in the immediate post war period.

That limits it to a very small number of people and as his writings are well known there are some who will know my source.

One of his tales was about a group of Partisans from the Baltic states who had a rather unique and particularly unpleasant method of getting rid of the crews of trains that they had captured.

I will not go further as it is dinner time but those who survived the war working trains in that part of the world were prone to night mares about it.. 

Where do you draw the line?

People vary as to their sensitivity.

A cameo depicting the scene would almost certainly be going too far at a public exhibition.

Bernard

[Jol Wilkinson]

I would say that a behind the lines representation of how railways helped in WW1 would be both interesting and educational.

 

I do have to agree that the thought of a model of a concentration camp entrance does put a chill down my spine - but we shouldn't forget that it actually happened so there is an argument for it. But agreed - not something to display at a model railway exhibition.

 

Given the horror that was WW1 life in the trenches, is portraying that much different to the very emotive model of Auschwitz in the War Museum? It could be argued that neither have a place in a model railway show, but who is to say where the line should be drawn.

[Compound2632]

Yet we are all very happy building and seeing models representing a civilian work environment that was dirty and dangerous, where men laboured long hours for little pay and poor housing, while their women were tied to domestic drudgery and hazardous childbirth and their children were subject to a myriad of now-preventable diseases and got no more than elementary education.

[Bucoops]

Given the horror that was WW1 life in the trenches, is portraying that much different to the very emotive model of Auschwitz in the War Museum? It could be argued that neither have a place in a model railway show, but who is to say where the line should be drawn.

 

That's why I was particular in stating behind the lines. Whilst it was still a harsh environment it's still different to the front line itself.

[glo41f]

Interesting subject this chaps. My Grandfather suffered in the trenches and lost a leg as well as being gassed from which he suffered a lot. My Father also had a time of it in the second unpleasantness and to keep the family tradition up I had rather a good time of the Cold War in Germany and elsewhere.

 

I am not averse to layouts portraying the troubled times though I would balk at any attempt to "glorify" was a scary era of history. What really gets me is the Heritage Sector with the 1940's re-enactment scene where folk dress up as Nazis and have mock battles etc. I do not have an issue with the dressing up part (though I find it difficult that everyone involved seems to be an Officer and overweight at that!) but fortunately, apart from the Channel Islands, Wehrmacht soldiers did not set foot on our national soil excepts as POW's. Therefore "battles" such as those fought at Horstead Keynes and Highley and elsewhere just leave me cold as to me it trivialises a time of history which though perhaps necessary, was not a time for enjoyment by either sets of protagonists.  My Dad had a rough time of it seeing mates killed and I do not feel that his generation's sacrifice is honoured by these events. Sorry if I have caused offence to some but I hope you understand.

 

Martin Long

Edited March 25, 2018 by glo41f

[Northmoor]

Also at Ally Pally was a layout based on the railways behind the lines on the western front in WW1.  I felt uneasy about this, and thought the concept was in pretty poor taste, all things considered.  Am I being over-sensitive?  There clearly are historical episodes involving railways which are best left alone, and is this one of them?

 

Tone

I completely respect your view about "Up the Line" but also completely disagree.  Railways are tools of war as much as any other equipment; however as others have said, an exhibition layout of Auschwitz would be a step too far.

 

I was at Ally Pally today - one of the things I really enjoyed about this layout was the sound.  The trains didn't produce any, it was just the feint (other exhibitors, please note) sound of birdsong and distant gunfire.  It created far more atmosphere than the sound of six diesel locos idling. 

[richard i]

If some thing is accurately done it is historically informative, be it pre grouping, ww2 layout etc. I may not like what it shows but I can learn from it. (Should learn from it - repeating mistakes et al.)

A light hearted layout with bells and whistles or t tank engine or punch cartoon trains is fine too. It does what it says on the tin. It has its place.

 

Where the mistake is made is in doing a light hearted model of a serious subject. The extreme of this would be a tail chaser representing the holocaust. Totally wrong.

I have seen overlord. They got the balance right, I have not seen the trench railway layout, but they too could have to me, if they follow the historical accurate route.

Richard

[asmay2002]

Also at Ally Pally was a layout based on the railways behind the lines on the western front in WW1.  I felt uneasy about this, and thought the concept was in pretty poor taste, all things considered.  Am I being over-sensitive?  There clearly are historical episodes involving railways which are best left alone, and is this one of them?

Yes, you are being very, very over sensitive.  There is an entire modelling hobby surrounding not only building models of soldiers, tanks, guns, planes, warships etc. but also playing wargames with them.   They have some very good modelling techniques which railway modellers can learn from.

[Hollar]

Yet we are all very happy building and seeing models representing a civilian work environment that was dirty and dangerous, where men laboured long hours for little pay and poor housing, while their women were tied to domestic drudgery and hazardous childbirth and their children were subject to a myriad of now-preventable diseases and got no more than elementary education.

I think there is a substantial difference between, say Stratford MPD and the Somme.

 

Tone

[cctransuk]

Yet we are all very happy building and seeing models representing a civilian work environment that was dirty and dangerous, where men laboured long hours for little pay and poor housing, while their women were tied to domestic drudgery and hazardous childbirth and their children were subject to a myriad of now-preventable diseases and got no more than elementary education.

 

 

Oh, come on !! You can't translate early 20th century living conditions into 21st century sensibilities.

 

Are you trying to tell me that all railwaymen of that era felt downtrodden and exploited?

 

.... that none of them loved their work; got immense job-satisfaction from it; felt proud to be able to support their wives and family; enjoyed genuine fulfilment from what their limited resources could provide?

 

All of this feeling guilty for what our forebears had to endure is pure crocodile tears !!

 

... and as for national apologies for the perceived sins of our fathers and grandfathers - they can't speak for themselves and we shouldn't presume to do it for them !!

 

Each age has its norms of existence, and the mass of humanity accepts them. There were, (and are), those who managed to exceed them; and those who failed to attain them.

 

What is, and what is not, acceptable for portrayal in miniature will vary according to one's personal sensibilities - as it should; trying to define those sensibilities for others is a pointless and presumptuous exercise.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Lecorbusier]

Interestingly I saw 'up the line' at Stevenage earlier this year and spent quite a time looking at it. I found it interesting and educational. Fascinatingly I didn't react to it or view it first & foremost  as a model railway .... unlike everything else in the hall - rather my reaction was to a piece of history presented in 3d that just happened to have a light railway as part of the subject. As a result I didn't find myself studying the track work, or the skill with which the stock was modelled, or the time table etc etc.

 

I thought about this a fair bit afterwards.

 

For me, I was pleased to have seen it and was interested rather than disturbed. So I didn't think it inappropriate for a model rail show.  It is an interesting debate as to whether it actually constitutes railway modelling or military modelling .... as a hybrid I'm sure it will split opinion.

[Compound2632]

Tone and John, you are of course both right. But do we not run the same risk of glamourising the past as, say, historical warfare re-enactment groups? Both railway modelling and historical re-enactment can, at their best, inform and educate as well as entertain. 

[t-b-g]

There have been many feature film, TV series and books written and performed portraying the history of WW1, WW2 and other conflicts. These very from fairly harrowing portrayals of true horrors of war to the lightweight comedy of Dad's Army and Allo Allo.

 

In my mind, I cannot see any difference between seeing such scenes portrayed on a layout or on a TV screen. As long as such a layout is done in a way that is not trivialising or being disrespectful, it can be a good way of reminding people what went on at such places and any element of respectful remembrance is fine with me.

 

If a particular individual finds them distasteful or doesn't like the idea of such layouts being produced (as they are totally entitled to feel), they always have the option of walking on by and looking at the next one.

[Clearwater]

Tony

 

Good to see you albeit briefly earlier today. A quick modelling question. A while ago, I recall you mentioning brass dress makers' pins for use on model valve gear. What's the best source of these and what sort of dimensions do they need to be? As ever, when you google these things, you get an awful lot of results of what you could buy...

 

Thanks

 

David

[Barry Ten]

Tony

 

Good to see you albeit briefly earlier today. A quick modelling question. A while ago, I recall you mentioning brass dress makers' pins for use on model valve gear. What's the best source of these and what sort of dimensions do they need to be? As ever, when you google these things, you get an awful lot of results of what you could buy...

 

Thanks

 

David

 

For what it's worth I ordered a pack of Hemline 450 x 20mm brass pins and I've used them in valve gear as per Tony's method:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Hemline-450-X-20mm-Brass-Craft-Pins-Beading-Sequin/28012064501?_trksid=p2047675.m4096.l9055

 

Al

[Clearwater]

Thanks Al - much appreciated.

 

David

[St Enodoc]

I was at Ally Pally this morning and was unlucky enough to miss seeing Mons Meg, which looks wonderful in the photos - one of those models where the scale is not discernible because it looks real.

 

Also at Ally Pally was a layout based on the railways behind the lines on the western front in WW1.  I felt uneasy about this, and thought the concept was in pretty poor taste, all things considered.  Am I being over-sensitive?  There clearly are historical episodes involving railways which are best left alone, and is this one of them?

 

Tone

Personally I haven't got a problem with that particular layout but I did feel a little uncomfortable when I read about the Great Train Robbery diorama that was around a few years ago. Just my thoughts - don't ask me to rationalise them.

[thegreenhowards]

Tony

Good to see you albeit briefly earlier today. A quick modelling question. A while ago, I recall you mentioning brass dress makers' pins for use on model valve gear. What's the best source of these and what sort of dimensions do they need to be? As ever, when you google these things, you get an awful lot of results of what you could buy...

Thanks

David

I took this photo of Tony’s pins when I visited. I subsequently found them on eBay and they work very well.

[Tony Wright]

Having spent a quite splendid weekend at Ally Pally, my view on the current state of the hobby has 'improved' somewhat. Improved inasmuch as not every visitor was a crusty old git like me, attendance was much higher than other more recent shows I've attended (as a percentage, though it's only my perception), there did seem to be some exciting innovations around, the standard or the layouts on show was very high and the demonstrations were varied and interesting. However (there's always an 'however'), for metal kit-builders like me, the options to buy anything were negligible or nil. There were a few second hand loco kits (of odd parentage it seemed to me), but nothing else as far as I could see. I understand the high costs involved for traders, but are the 'box-shifters' to predominate so much at major shows now, that the only way of seeing kit-products and talking to those who made them will be at the specialist and society events? Thankfully, York (next weekend) flies the flag for the builders still. I hope there are still others.

 

As for myself, most of the time I was operating the shed on Grantham (which I managed to do with just the occasional cock-up). In the main, the layout ran very well as was usually surrounded by visitors, many deep. 

 

 

I only had time to grab a few shots, including this one showing one of the new signals as my Klondike backs on to a train for Lincoln. It did have a lamp, honestly; at some time in its packaging past, the class B lamp has been knocked off (see the paint gone from the bracket), but since it lives with the layout, I'll have to find a more permanent means of securing a lamp. 

 

I did, however, have time to complete a photographic commission for BRM. 

 

 

The commission was for pictures of Kensington Addison Road, built in O Gauge by the Twickenham club depicting this cross-London line station in pre-Grouping days. It's beautifully-done. 

 

May I please thank all those with whom I spoke, and may I apologise if I had to break off from conversation for one reason or another? 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Jol Wilkinson]

However (there's always an 'however'), for metal kit-builders like me, the options to buy anything were negligible or nil. There were a few second hand loco kits (of odd parentage it seemed to me), but nothing else as far as I could see. I understand the high costs involved for traders, but are the 'box-shifters' to predominate so much at major shows now, that the only way of seeing kit-products and talking to those who made them will be at the specialist and society events? Thankfully, York (next weekend) flies the flag for the builders still. I hope there are still others.

 

 

I think that pretty much sums up the situation. York, Railex and Portsmouth are exceptions for what might be called general shows as they concentrate on "finescale" modelling. There may be others I haven't visited that are similar.

 

Numbers through the door are what show organisers need for revenue and give the RTR retailers the bigger sales opportunity.The "model makers" like you are what the Small Suppliers need. Even at acclaimed shows such as the CMRA Stevenage event only a small proportion of those attending are interested in what the non RTR trade has to offer. Of course some products, paint, glue, scenic will sell "across the board" but for some traders the number of of kit builders through the door is make or break.

 

Few shows are able to meet the needs of both sectors of the trade, which is why the kits and bits are generally found at the Society shows.

[Chuffer Davies]

I think that pretty much sums up the situation. York, Railex and Portsmouth are exceptions for what might be called general shows as they concentrate on "finescale" modelling. There may be others I haven't visited that are similar.

 

Numbers through the door are what show organisers need for revenue and give the RTR retailers the bigger sales opportunity.The "model makers" like you are what the Small Suppliers need. Even at acclaimed shows such as the CMRA Stevenage event only a small proportion of those attending are interested in what the non RTR trade has to offer. Of course some products, paint, glue, scenic will sell "across the board" but for some traders the number of of kit builders through the door is make or break.

 

Few shows are able to meet the needs of both sectors of the trade, which is why the kits and bits are generally found at the Society shows.

Tony,

You’ve hit the nail on the head. Importantly it is worth stressing that OO modellers who are into kit building will be equally well served as the members at the society shows and should not be put off by the fact that they don’t actually model in that gauge. As well as the many specialist traders not present at the big public shows you can also get closer to the layouts and their owners as these shows are not widely advertised to the general public and so are not heavily attended.

 

Next society show in the season is I think Expo EM at Bracknell in May.

 

Regards,

 

Frank

[jwealleans]

Scalefour North, April 14th/15th?

Edited March 26, 2018 by jwealleans

[KalKat]

IS it just me/my eyes, or is that 'box on Grantham hovering?

 

 

 

Emma

[jwealleans]

From this angle you can't see the gravitationally challenged fireman climbing the steps to observe Rule 55.

[Chuffer Davies]

Scalefour North, April 14th/15th?

My apologies, of course Scalefour North is before Expo EM and is hosted at Queen Elizabeth’s Grammer School in Wakefield. This always has excellent trade support, layouts and demonstrations. If your a finescale modeler who has never been to a Society show I would recommend you give it a go. There is ample parking or the venue is about a 15-20 minute walk from Wakefield Westgate station.

Frank