Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

As far as I know, the special only took the ramblers as far as Malpas, but what happened to the loco and stock after that, I have no idea. Was there a turntable at Whitchurch? There certainly wouldn't have been one at Malpas. Did the loco/stock go all the way to Shrewsbury for turning? By the time it came back (if it came back via Chester), we'd all gone home for tea. 

 

Was 61039 one of those B1s fitted with a rebuilt tender; the sort with no footplate flange along the middle? If so, I didn't notice at the time, but I recall seeing a picture of it somewhere.

 

Happy days. 

There certainly was a turntable at Whitchurch although I have a feeling it was quite short (no doubt others here will know).

[sandra]

Tony,

 

According to LMS Engine Sheds by Chris Hawkins and George Reeve there was a four-road locomotive shed at Whitchurch and there was a 60 foot turntable. The shed was closed in September 1957, when the passenger service over the line to Chester was withdrawn. However the shed was used for some years afterwards.

 

Sandra

[Northmoor]

The fish trains from Grimsby deserves a book, they were so varied.  apart from the Grimsby-Whitland service, there were 9F hauled trains to London, various trains via the LDEC, and single vans behind DMUs.  I once saw 61038 Blacktail on the Grimsby-Whitland Fish.  The Immingham Brits took over on this run in the sixties.

I've never heard of the Grimsby-Whitland Fish train.  Why would fish be brought from Grimsby, when they were landing it in reasonable tonnages at Milford Haven, less than thirty miles away?

[jacko]

I've never heard of the Grimsby-Whitland Fish train.  Why would fish be brought from Grimsby, when they were landing it in reasonable tonnages at Milford Haven, less than thirty miles away?

because North-eastern fish are nicer ? 

[Compound2632]

I never did understand, as a small boy or now, why "Grimsby fish trains to the Midlands" were (at least in the late 50s/early 60s) commonly hauled by ER locomotioves (B1 Ourebi being a regular) but sent along the ex-Midland Lincoln to Nottingham to Derby line when there were obvious alternatives (albeit possibly slightly longer) on ER metals, e.g. via the LDEC line, Mansfield Railway and GC  Bulwell Common to the GN Derbyshire Lines.  Anyone have any ideas?

 

Because, as you said yourself, it was quicker that way? The object was to get the fish into batter as soon as may be, not give it a tour of the Dukeries. Any haddock that was bothered about ticking off unusual routes could always join the LCGB.

 

As Flying Pig says, the Midland line to Lincoln was the fastest and most direct route; also the oldest-established. As well as being the route for fish, it was also the TPO route (to Tamworth, to exchange with the West Coast Postal). The mail train could have quite a few fish vans hanging off its tail, according to the marshalling instructions. The market for fish would be the West as well as East Midlands - in fact the larger market. The Midland side of New Street Station had a substantial fish dock.

[St Enodoc]

I've never heard of the Grimsby-Whitland Fish train.  Why would fish be brought from Grimsby, when they were landing it in reasonable tonnages at Milford Haven, less than thirty miles away?

Different types of fish?

[jrg1]

I've never heard of the Grimsby-Whitland Fish train.  Why would fish be brought from Grimsby, when they were landing it in reasonable tonnages at Milford Haven, less than thirty miles away?

I don't know either-just as I don't know why there was a summer excursion train from Cleethorpes to Bournemouth and return.  Or for that matter, a boat train from Rosslare to Cork and return.

Perhaps we should be told.

[jamie92208]

I've never heard of the Grimsby-Whitland Fish train.  Why would fish be brought from Grimsby, when they were landing it in reasonable tonnages at Milford Haven, less than thirty miles away?

 

Grimsby Fish came all over the North West even though Fleetwood was closer.  I suspect that the tonnage via Grimsby was much larger.  As a boy in the 50's I used to see Grimsby Fish lorries delivering in Giggleswick then setting off towards Ingleton. I suspect that Fleetwood had close ties to Markets in Manchester, Liverpool and the West Mids as their railway connections went in that direction but have no proper knowledge of the way the market worked.

 

Jamie

Edited April 11, 2018 by jamie92208

[gr.king]

Well Tony I have started my kit building career as of last night. 

 

Finally decided to take the plunge and start my Wizards models NE perishable van.  A little sketchy to begin with and I doubt it will turn out the way I want it, but you have to start somewhere. 

 

I realised I hadn't put the bearings in, I took some out of an old Parkside kit I had lying around. Where could I get some wheel bearings from? 

 

The low melt solder didn't want to to stick to the iron? Is there a reason for this or is that natural? 

 

IMG_1094.JPG

 

 

I'll keep you posted. 

 

Jesse

I'm not a metallurgist, so I can only speak as an un-educated user, but I notice that many modern soldering irons are supplied with plating on the bit, possibly iron I gather, over the highly thermally conductive copper or other material forming the bit. The plating frequently seems to be extremely resistant to over-coating (tinning) with ANY kind of solder. The plated bit is supposed to be more resistant to flux-corrosion and/or other forms of degradation because of the plating, and the user is not therefore supposed to file or abrade the bit in any way as that can remove the plating and reveal the more vulnerable copper. But what use is an iron that won't carry molten solder to the job, since that is exactly what I want it to do in many situations? No use to me certainly!

For some time I've filed the plating off when it would not behave, and made my own replacement "expendable" bits for my irons, simply filing suitable lengths of round copper or phosphor bronze rod (6mm or 1/4" dia) so as to fit the iron and so as to have the tip shape that I want. When clean and bright, they always tin perfectly with either flux-cored electrical solder, or with other high-temperature soft solder and paste flux.

Low melt solder for white metal adheres to the bit most effectively if you firstly tin the bit at high temperature with a "normal" soft solder, then reduce the temperature so that the tinning already applied solidifies. Low melt will then coat the bit nicely, possibly with the aid of more flux. Once you have low-melt on the bit you must remember NOT to turn the heat up high enough to melt the normal solder with which you pre-tinned the bit, otherwise the two substances combine to form something that may be of no use at all for soldering purposes. You also need to clean off all traces of the low-melt if you intend to return to use of normal solders on the same bit.

[jamie92208]

I tend to cut small bits of low melt off the length with a Stanley knife, then after tacking, place a piece in the joint with plenty of flux and then apply the iron to the piece.  It works just as well.   II also find that when I'm demonstrating, white metal soldering always seems to attract attention from passers by.

 

Jamie

[grob1234]

I'm not a metallurgist, so I can only speak as an un-educated user, but I notice that many modern soldering irons are supplied with plating on the bit, possibly iron I gather, over the highly thermally conductive copper or other material forming the bit. The plating frequently seems to be extremely resistant to over-coating (tinning) with ANY kind of solder. The plated bit is supposed to be more resistant to flux-corrosion and/or other forms of degradation because of the plating, and the user is not therefore supposed to file or abrade the bit in any way as that can remove the plating and reveal the more vulnerable copper. But what use is an iron that won't carry molten solder to the job, since that is exactly what I want it to do in many situations? No use to me certainly!For some time I've filed the plating off when it would not behave, and made my own replacement "expendable" bits for my irons, simply filing suitable lengths of round copper or phosphor bronze rod (6mm or 1/4" dia) so as to fit the iron and so as to have the tip shape that I want. When clean and bright, they always tin perfectly with either flux-cored electrical solder, or with other high-temperature soft solder and paste flux.Low melt solder for white metal adheres to the bit most effectively if you firstly tin the bit at high temperature with a "normal" soft solder, then reduce the temperature so that the tinning already applied solidifies. Low melt will then coat the bit nicely, possibly with the aid of more flux. Once you have low-melt on the bit you must remember NOT to turn the heat up high enough to melt the normal solder with which you pre-tinned the bit, otherwise the two substances combine to form something that may be of no use at all for soldering purposes. You also need to clean off all traces of the low-melt if you intend to return to use of normal solders on the same bit.

I got well and truly told off on YouTube by someone who told me I was soldering with the incorrect technique. I too pick up solder on the iron and bring it to my work, using my spare hand to hold whatever I'm soldering, and using my mouth for swearing as I can't take the pain...

 

Anyway, I asked the commentator what locomotives they had built and if they were successful using the apparently text book method of heating the piece and adding solder. It turns out he's never made a locomotive kit in his life! I explained it would be impossible to use his method for my needs, but that if a technique works then why not employ it? I also asked him to send me some pictures of things he has soldered so I could see for myself his work. I'm still waiting though I have never idea why...

 

Basically what I'm saying is have a play about find out what works and stick with it. To me it is the end result that matters not the way in which you choose to solder.

 

PS I also occasionally run a fine sanding stick over the end of the bit when I get a build up of hard black stuff on there. I'm sure it's wrong but the bit still works fine. They're consumables anyway aren't they?

Edited April 11, 2018 by grob1234

[Andy Hayter]

I've never heard of the Grimsby-Whitland Fish train.  Why would fish be brought from Grimsby, when they were landing it in reasonable tonnages at Milford Haven, less than thirty miles away?

 

As already suggested different types of fish.  Grimsby was at that stage the biggest UK fishing port by far.  The majority of the catches were cod and haddock - at that stage already much of it being caught quite a long way off shore (as in off Norway and towards Iceland) plus herring when in season.  South - West coast fish tended to be poorer in these species with Skate, Mackerel, Pilchards (aka sardines), Pollack (relative of cod but even today not widely eaten) being much more common.

[gr.king]

I got well and truly told off on YouTube by someone who told me I was soldering with the incorrect technique.

 

Anyway, I asked the commentator what locomotives they had built

 

I'm sure it's wrong but the bit still works fine. They're consumables anyway aren't they?

There is never a shortage of experts who have never applied their expertise.

[Jesse Sim]

Good morning Jesse,

 

Wagon wheel bearings?

 

Get some from John, then fill your pockets when you come to stay with us in August.

 

Low melt is more difficult to pick up on the iron. If so, once you've made a tack, prepare some little 'blobs' of low melt solder (by employing the iron), then flood the joint with flux, place one of the solidified little blobs on the joint, as far away from the tack as possible, then reintroduce the iron. The blob will flash into the joint perfectly. 

 

Good looking work.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Evening Tony,

 

Yeah I gave John a call, that will get me through with the two other wagons, now I need to get some wheels for my two GNR tender  kits. Probably make a start on them soon, John and I both said Romford?

 

That was exactly what I done, took me about 10 minutes until I discovered that, cheers Tony.

 

Made a start on the buffers tonight.

 

Jesse 

[Killybegs]

Talking of named B1s, we had Bongo (61005) at 31A Cambridge towards the end of steam. I was still at school then, at the "County" which backed onto the line just South of Hills Road bridge. I actually made official enquiries about buying a nameplate off Bongo, but at £5 it was too expensive.....how I regret that decision.

 

Stewart

 But £5 was an awful lot of money in those days. With hindsight, I should have taken out a loan from the bank and nipped up to Swindon Works in the mid sixties. However, Bank Managers were a bit sniffy about lending money for something outside of their comfort zone in those days!

[great northern]

I'm glad the pictures evoke memories, Gilbert. 

 

As I mentioned, I only went to Lincoln twice, and never by train. My dad trained as a teacher with a chap from the city, and we went to see him and his family on two occasions in about 1960/'61. He lived in a large house on the city-side, overlooking the Brayford Pool, on a steep hill (not the Steep Hill). From his garden, we could look across towards 40A, which, on both occasions being a Sunday, was packed. My brother and I were allowed to go to East Holmes on the first visit, and the signalman allowed us to walk by the side of the railway adjacent to the shed, but not to cross the tracks. No matter, because we could see a fair bit, including 70011 HOTSPUR simmering outside (a 'cop'!). OUREBI was also present and, to my astonishment, a Crab and an 8F. These types of locos were the sort from my neck of the woods, unexpected so far east; or were they common? On the second visit, activities were more 'family' orientated, though it looked like the shed was still busy. 

 

I have to say, the first day was most-memorable, not at Lincoln itself, but for having (very luckily) been stopped by the gates at Lincoln Road crossing, just south of Markham Moor on the A57 for trains to pass. Given the choice (though I never would have been, being only 14), I'd have asked my parents to leave my brother and me there, rather than go further east. Still, 60088 BOOKLAW was a 'cop', and I never saw it again. 

 

I've written about these experiences, and they'll be published in BRILL later this year. 

 

How many of your old split-chassis B1s need new frames?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 Walking along the road towards the goods shed was usually tolerated Tony, so long, as you say, as we kept off the tracks. I have many memories of hopeful expeditions to that part of the shed. I remember B17 Somerleyton Hall standing by the shed wall for what seemed like weeks to a small boy, but probably wasn't. Ex LMS engines were very rare at the GN shed until the small St Marks sub shed closed, but they had to come over there after that.

 

I have a very similar memory of the East Markham level crossing too. In my case it was Sir Charles Newton that provided the cop. My poor father was often persuaded to stop the family car near level crossings for a while, just in case, but strangers such as 60005 never turned up again.

 

As to split chassis B1s, one is deceased, another on its last legs, and three more are "as well as can be expected" as the medical bulletins say. There is one more, which has always been a very good runner, but even that one is showing signs of fatigue.

[Tom F]

Good afternoon Tom,

 

The weathering hasn't come adrift at all - it's Hornby's oil. I've never seen stuff which creeps so much. I have a couple of modified Hornby O1s, which I detailed/renumbered/weathered, and they were fine until about a year later. Though it's not a disaster (parts just look 'wet'), the oil originally-applied by the factory is just so persistent. I've not oiled any of them, there's just so much at source. 

 

I'll look through my collection of pictures and see if 61061 is among them. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

I've had that problem on a few locos Tony, of both Hornby and Bachmann orange. What I've found is that over time the oil begins to fade and eventually it blends in with the weathering. I remember chatting with Jonathan Wealleans about this some time ago.

 

First side of the B1 has it's new numbers on. 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by 9793

[great northern]

Thanks David,

 

Fortunately, it wasn't my Ian Allan Combined Volumes which were chucked away; it was my notebooks. Because they were written in a boy's hand, my mother must have thought I'd grown out of them. 

 

She also disposed of some of my negatives. What a shame. If I still had them, there'd be a picture of a named B1 at Kiveton Park (obviously, 61033) and BRITANNIA herself, belting through the same station on the boat train. 

 

If I do ever get to build Kiveton Park as my final exhibition layout, both of those will feature. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Here's another who suffered from a maternal clear out. While I was away at college the lot went, all Ian Allans and notebooks, all photos and negatives, and Trains Illustrateds from 1956 to 1963, which I have had to buy again at inflated prices since.

[great northern]

One of your and Ian Rathbone's works of art has recently featured in close up at Peterborough North Tony, so I thought it appropriate to post it here for others to see. I shall always be grateful to you for doing this one for me to replace the appalling thing that a so called professional modeller had tried to fob off on me.

1641 was always the most common on the boat train in the mid to late 50s, so she was a must have for me. In this picture though, she is waiting to take the 4.25 to Harwich later on.

Edited April 11, 2018 by great northern

[Enterprisingwestern]

I've never heard of the Grimsby-Whitland Fish train.  Why would fish be brought from Grimsby, when they were landing it in reasonable tonnages at Milford Haven, less than thirty miles away?

You'll not see much North Sea cod landed at Milford Haven!

 

Mike.

[Chamby]

As already suggested different types of fish.  Grimsby was at that stage the biggest UK fishing port by far.  The majority of the catches were cod and haddock - at that stage already much of it being caught quite a long way off shore (as in off Norway and towards Iceland) plus herring when in season.  South - West coast fish tended to be poorer in these species with Skate, Mackerel, Pilchards (aka sardines), Pollack (relative of cod but even today not widely eaten) being much more common.

Actually Pollack is more widely eaten than you’d think. Most white fish ready meals use either pollack or sometimes its close relative Coley. Think fish pie, fish fingers, fillet-o-fish... Pollack is the most commonly used fish in these.

 

West of the Tamar, There wasn’t any need for Grimsby Fish of course... at least not before Britain joined the common market.

[LBRJ]

The Grimsby Fish traffic to other seaside places was just a result of the huge amount of fish landed there compared to anywhere else (Hull was even bigger).

 

Grimsby alone landed more than four times the weight of fish taken at every registered port in the south of  the country!

Edited April 11, 2018 by LBRJ

[Northmoor]

You'll not see much North Sea cod landed at Milford Haven!

 

Mike.

Funny Mike and factually correct.  However, why was Whitland the destination?  There wasn't a major goods yard and no fish processing factory in the town (unless they were doing something VERY questionable in the Creamery).  I wonder if the service actually dropped off most of the vans elsewhere en route and Whitland was the final destination of only the last few vans?

 

Time to disappear into the library..... I may be some time.

 

Later......... There were fish trains between Neyland and Severn Tunnel Junction/London.  Perhaps Whitland was a "nominal" destination and wagons were diagrammed into a circuit between London, West Wales and Grimsby (and probably many other destinations).

[Tom F]

Apologies on the iPhone camera quality. That is the renumbering complete on the B1. First North Eastern Region loco of my own I've worked on for 5 years, not since my Leaman Road days.

 

 

Cab sides have been sealed with Halfords Satin Lacquer. The Smokebox has had it's 51A shed plate fitted and I will be picking up Pacific Model front numberplate sheet next weekend. Obviously I need to paint the bogie rims of the Gibson Bogie wheels, but I also will be adding the row of Archer's Rivets along the front and rear of the smokebox. I also need to add the detailing bits supplied from Hornby.

 

Then it will be time for weathering, not too filthy mind....probably similar to how I finished Tony's B1.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

You'll not see much North Sea cod landed at Milford Haven!

 

Mike.

Yup, I remember having a lift from Brstol to Plymuff in a fish lorry from Grimsby circa 1967 and asking the driver why fish to my destination when there was still plenty of fishing happening down there. Cod was the answer. 

Phil