Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

. I think this applies to 99% of the layouts I have seen. I am also guilty as charged, attempting to portray a mainline station in a space just 16 feet by 8. All sorts of interdependent compromises have to be made... where one thing can be achieved but only at the expense of something else!

 

As time goes by, and the list of compromises grows with my own layout, I find myself wondering whether it is too compromised to be named after the station on which it is based. It would require something like 18 meters to portray accurately... the station and approaches, and I only have sixteen feet available to me at the moment. So whilst I will endeavour to model as much as I can, as accurately as I can, to look as much like the original as I can, it just cannot be what I would like it to be. So, it becomes a hybrid blend of accurate modelling and compromised representation... part fact, part fiction.

 

I would be interested in people’s views regarding how much compromise can be achieved before it becomes inappropriate to name the model after the original location. How much compression can be achieved before something ceases to legitimately be what it purports to represent?

 

Phil

Good evening Phil,

 

Thanks for your comments. 

 

Your (implied) question about how far compromise goes before it becomes inappropriate to name a model of an actual location is most interesting. 

 

I'm involved (in a very small way) with two exhibition layouts, built by the same friends, based on actual locations where, because of site/space limitations both are much shorter than they should be. However, because they capture (completely) the spirit of the locations, there's no doubt as to where they represent and suspension of disbelief is absolute.

 

 

One is Grantham.

 

 

 

The other is Shap. Both layouts are principally the work of Graham Nicholas. 

 

I've included these Shap shots because they show my little bit of input, since I provided these locos. 

 

There's no doubt which location each layout represents. Though they're both foreshortened, both come/go on/off scene via scenic breaks which are not on ridiculously tight curves - the real killer as far as I'm concerned for main line depictions. The tight curves to the fiddle yards are out of sight. 

 

I suppose it's down to how much one is prepared to compromise, both in selective compression and omission. Because of my 'zeal', as is well-known, I can 'live' with losing 14" in 32', but no more. Greater than that, and LB wouldn't look right; at least as far as I'm concerned, and it's not just the length; it's the width as well. 

 

Speaking of zeal, I was reminded this afternoon how easy it is (at least for me) to cause offence. As a judge invited to many shows, I'll often comment on my personal likes and dislikes and reasons for my choices at the presentations. Perhaps because I might have a weird sense of humour, what I give out as throw-away, jokey comments seem to be perceived by some as offensive. At one recent show, I made a comment about (the much-hated) tension-lock couplings, and how layouts using them had 'no chance' in my book. Talk about dark mutterings. From my own point of view, if one is exhibiting a layout (for which the public has paid for the privilege), then surely, as railway modellers, we should have moved on from those awful things, don't you think? Even if one uses them on stock, at least just use a simple (and discreet) goalpost on the loco. Nothing looks worse to me than a gross coupling sticking out from under a loco's bufferbeam, especially in photographs.

 

I was asked if I practised being 'offensive'. 'Not at all' said I, 'It's a gift!' 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Tony Wright

[jamie92208]

I was asked if I practised being 'offensive'. 'Not at all' said I, 'It's a gift!'

When I was exhibition manager at Wakefield there was a particular traders wife who always came and shouted at me on the Friday over a number of matters. She once said to me "We don't have to come You know", to which I replied, "That's fine by me I won't send an invite for next year if that helps." She then complained to our club chairman about my attitude. His reply was "He's spent 30 years practicing to be like that." I was rather amused.

 

As an aside, by the Sunday she was always in a better mood and always came to give me effusive thanks about how well we had treated her.

 

Jamie

Edited June 15, 2018 by jamie92208

[Lecorbusier]

I always liked this BRM video .... Ashburton, which I understand was originally part of Totnes.

 

 

I do enjoy it when the mood takes to show pictures of modelling which is respected .... I almost always learn about layouts I new nothing about. .... more please.

[Northmoor]

The Trains are the star of the show/layout as they should be, its called Model Railways .  

Then it would be called model trains, surely?  A railway is still a railway even when trains aren't running.

[Jesse Sim]

Many moons ago I scratch built one of those coaling towers (based on Carnforth I think) in N/2mm from cardboard. It was never properly finished and I ended up selling it. But here's a pic:

 

Duo pic.jpg

 

G.

Isn't that the Hornby coaling tower?

[jrg1]

Discussing layouts versus accuracy versus operation, I think the best example of reconciling these factors is Rev. Denney's Buckingham.  Pure Great Central, complex operation, totally believeable, and it never existed in real life.

[Clem]

It all sounds very impressive, especially the Iron stone/ore hoppers. How are you intending to produce them? Freight stock gets a bit of a bum rap in model railway land, usually down below the ducks on the duck pond on the list of priorities. With regard to the bear trains, a colleague is producing the demountable road tanks and attendant six wheel wagons that worked from the Guinness brewery at Park Royal. I think that the demountable tanks were unique to Guinness but the wagons were based on the GWR six wheel milk tanks chassis.

 

 

As impressive as it sounds, sounding is about as far as it goes at the moment. So far my iron ore rake is only 11 wagons and I'll need at least 40 eventually! Here's a picture of the only ex-LMS one I've done so far - it's scratch built in 15 thou plasticard and represents one of the 8'6" high version - I can't remember the diagram number off the top of my head. It needs some more weathering. The second photo shows the rake so far as a whole. The Charles Roberts ones in the photo are Bachmann/Dapol RTR but cut and shut to provide the correct length and with a new more accurate under frame. The tinies (O4s) usually took a load of 23 full wagons from the ironstone quarries in Leicestershire and Lincolnshire to Stanton.

 

On the subject of the beer train,  I'll see if I can fish out a picture of it in my period of the mid 50s. I'm sure I've seen pictures of it with demountable tankers in the consist but I can't think where.

[LNER4479]

Your (implied) question about how far compromise goes before it becomes inappropriate to name a model of an actual location is most interesting. 

 

I'm involved (in a very small way) with two exhibition layouts, built by the same friends, based on actual locations where, because of site/space limitations both are much shorter than they should be. However, because they capture (completely) the spirit of the locations, there's no doubt as to where they represent and suspension of disbelief is absolute.

 

Grantham Warley 16 07.jpg

 

One is Grantham.

 

Shap 09.jpg

 

Shap 15.jpg

 

The other is Shap. Both layouts are principally the work of Graham Nicholas. 

 

I've included these Shap shots because they show my little bit of input, since I provided these locos. 

 

There's no doubt which location each layout represents. Though they're both foreshortened, both come/go on/off scene via scenic breaks which are not on ridiculously tight curves - the real killer as far as I'm concerned for main line depictions. The tight curves to the fiddle yards are out of sight. 

 

I suppose it's down to how much one is prepared to compromise, both in selective compression and omission.

Thanks Tony for highlighting these.

 

For interest, they both equate to about 50% compression - but we run shorter length trains to compensate. Grantham station will take a nine coach rake of teaks (just!); in reality, the longest platform would take 18 (I think it was). I was clear from the outset that I didn't want the station to dominate the whole layout as there was plenty of interesting operational activity to depict both north and south of the station so I tried to balance the thing accordingly.

 

Shap's a little looser in scale plus the fact that we're merging several different scenes together but, again, we're running shorter length trains than the real thing (your A4 with 10 bogies is the largest passenger train although the parcels train is equivalent of 12) which hopefully helps the trains 'fit' into the landscape. It's only when you stop to actually count the wagons that you realise there's a bit of a fiddle going on!

 

[Headstock]

As impressive as it sounds, sounding is about as far as it goes at the moment. So far my iron ore rake is only 11 wagons and I'll need at least 40 eventually! Here's a picture of the only ex-LMS one I've done so far - it's scratch built in 15 thou plasticard and represents one of the 8'6" high version - I can't remember the diagram number off the top of my head. It needs some more weathering. The second photo shows the rake so far as a whole. The Charles Roberts ones in the photo are Bachmann/Dapol RTR but cut and shut to provide the correct length and with a new more accurate under frame. The tinies (O4s) usually took a load of 23 full wagons from the ironstone quarries in Leicestershire and Lincolnshire to Stanton.

 

On the subject of the beer train,  I'll see if I can fish out a picture of it in my period of the mid 50s. I'm sure I've seen pictures of it with demountable tankers in the consist but I can't think where.

 

Awesome work, you've really made my day. I don't think that I have ever seen a proper iron ore train modeled before. A type at one time so typical because of the varied assortment of hoppers. I have often thought that of all prototypical trains that could be modeled, an iron ore train such as you are producing is possibly the most challenging. I notice that you also have a BR 14 tonner, High dyke Appleby Frodingham hoppers and is that an ex WD type?

Edited June 14, 2018 by Headstock

[t-b-g]

Awesome work, you've really made my day. I don't think that I have ever seen a proper iron ore train modeled before. A type at one time so typical because of the varied assortment of hoppers. I have often thought that of all prototypical trains that could be modeled, an iron ore train such as you are producing is possibly the most challenging. I notice that you also have a BR 14 tonner, High dyke Frodingham hoppers and is that an ex WD type?

 

There were one or two on High Dyke all those years ago and a lovely iron ore train was modelled and described in a series of MRJ articles by Geoff Kent. That train saw service on Retford for a while but now goes on Black Lion Crossing, Geoff's latest masterpiece (of believable fiction!).

 

Having said that, properly modelled ones, with an appropriate mix of wagon types, are rare.

[Ben Alder]

Thanks for all the input on the catering coach - I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was indeed a buffet rather than a restaurant car, and the beginning of the downgrading of these services. Something else to be investigated, and one of the enjoyable tangents of trying to recreate an impression of a real location.

[St Enodoc]

Thanks Tony for highlighting these.

 

For interest, they both equate to about 50% compression - but we run shorter length trains to compensate. Grantham station will take a nine coach rake of teaks (just!); in reality, the longest platform would take 18 (I think it was). I was clear from the outset that I didn't want the station to dominate the whole layout as there was plenty of interesting operational activity to depict both north and south of the station so I tried to balance the thing accordingly.

 

Shap's a little looser in scale plus the fact that we're merging several different scenes together but, again, we're running shorter length trains than the real thing (your A4 with 10 bogies is the largest passenger train although the parcels train is equivalent of 12) which hopefully helps the trains 'fit' into the landscape. It's only when you stop to actually count the wagons that you realise there's a bit of a fiddle going on!

 

IMG_9910.jpg

All the passenger trains on my Mid-Cornwall Lines are 60% (rounded) of the prototype length.

[jamie92208]

Compression is a difficult subject but we are all subject to compromises to a greater or lesser degree. Lancaster Green Ayre had to be the same length as my previous layout to fit into the church for test running. I decided to model the station accurately and the stretch from Greyhound Bridge to Skerton Bridge is to scale. However I chose to compress the Goods Yard/Loco shed area in both directions. Thus the loco head shunt and the main goods yard tracks have ended up shorter than they should be. I've also had to compress it width wise and had to lose a couple of sidings. The other area was curvature where it has to curve at the east end to get round to the fiddle yard and the Castle Branch curves at the west end. The Goods shed should have been 3 bays long but we decided to reduce it to 2 bays so that t doesn't overpower the scene and could remain straight rather than having to curve.

 

 

The ironic thing is that in it's new home I could expand it to it's proper length but life is too short. An extension to the outside via the stock loading siding seems to be a better project but don't tell my other half.

 

 

Jamie

[Tony Wright]

There were one or two on High Dyke all those years ago and a lovely iron ore train was modelled and described in a series of MRJ articles by Geoff Kent. That train saw service on Retford for a while but now goes on Black Lion Crossing, Geoff's latest masterpiece (of believable fiction!).

 

Having said that, properly modelled ones, with an appropriate mix of wagon types, are rare.

I think Graeme King has modelled an iron ore train on Grantham.

 

I'll see if I've got a picture, and the one on Geoff's latest layout. 

[Mark Forrest]

 

Moretonhampstead 08.jpg

 

Well over 30 years ago, Wolverhampton MRC built a model of Moretonhampstead in OO. Though not entirely small (it was 30' long), it was a model of a small prototype, and, as such, accurate in length. Though I built a few locos for it, I found it deadly boring to operate.

 

Now that makes me feel old. Somewhere there is a photo of a young me operating Moretonhampstead, taken over 30 years ago, I was just tall enough to see over the backscene. I think it was at a model engineering show at Stoneleigh where WMRC were exhibiting. I spent many happy hours sorting out wagons in the goods yard there and at a few other shows.

Also reminds me of a detour on a family holiday some time in the mid-'80s so that Dad could photograph and measure the bridge at the fiddle yard end of the layout!

[Clem]

Awesome work, you've really made my day. I don't think that I have ever seen a proper iron ore train modeled before. A type at one time so typical because of the varied assortment of hoppers. I have often thought that of all prototypical trains that could be modeled, an iron ore train such as you are producing is possibly the most challenging. I notice that you also have a BR 14 tonner, High dyke Appleby Frodingham hoppers and is that an ex WD type?

 

Thanks for the kind comments but Tony G. is correct in saying Geoff Kent has modelled a complete rake of iron ore hoppers and to a much higher standard that mine. But I am learning...  Geoff is simply a magician when it comes to producing prototypical models. Having said that, his work has been massively inspiring to me and that hap-hazard, different heights of the hoppers is something I remember from being a child and is something I really wanted to represent. One of the things I'm trying to get to is to build a little batch of the LMS hoppers which seemed to be pretty numerous on the Stanton iron ore trains - but pretty well all types were represented. You're correct about the consist. The BR14 tanner is a Dave Bradwell Kit, the Charles Robets type are all Bachmann cut and shuts some modelled as ex-private owner and some as BR and Graeme King was kind enough to produce 3 extra Appleby-Frodingham hoppers from his Grantham batch. There isn't a WD type one...yet

 

Now... the Burton-York been train: Sorry about the quality but I've included a scan from the October 1957 Trains Illustrated in which P J Lynch has captured a moment when the Burton beer train had stalled on the steeply graded spur between Basford North (Basford and Bullwell) and Bulwell Common and had called upon the B16 for help. In the normal course of events, the B16 would have taken over at Bulwell Common anyway and would then proceed, usually via the GN Leen Valley route, to York. It's the fifth vehicle that I find interesting but I can quite make out exactly what it is. It looks like a demountable tanker on a flat wagon but it's not that clear. The real shame is that seems to be so few photos of this train from which you can see how it was made up. Anyone any ideas? 

[grahame]

Isn't that the Hornby coaling tower?

Nope, it's a scratch-built 1:148 scale one - made primarily from cardboard. ;-)

 

Although Hornby did produce some RTP resin buildings in N gauge scale under the Lyddle End brand they dropped the range several years ago, and it didn't include a coaling tower AFAIA.

 

G

[Headstock]

Thanks for the kind comments but Tony G. is correct in saying Geoff Kent has modelled a complete rake of iron ore hoppers and to a much higher standard that mine. But I am learning...  Geoff is simply a magician when it comes to producing prototypical models. Having said that, his work has been massively inspiring to me and that hap-hazard, different heights of the hoppers is something I remember from being a child and is something I really wanted to represent. One of the things I'm trying to get to is to build a little batch of the LMS hoppers which seemed to be pretty numerous on the Stanton iron ore trains - but pretty well all types were represented. You're correct about the consist. The BR14 tanner is a Dave Bradwell Kit, the Charles Robets type are all Bachmann cut and shuts some modelled as ex-private owner and some as BR and Graeme King was kind enough to produce 3 extra Appleby-Frodingham hoppers from his Grantham batch. There isn't a WD type one...yet

 

Now... the Burton-York been train: Sorry about the quality but I've included a scan from the October 1957 Trains Illustrated in which P J Lynch has captured a moment when the Burton beer train had stalled on the steeply graded spur between Basford North (Basford and Bullwell) and Bulwell Common and had called upon the B16 for help. In the normal course of events, the B16 would have taken over at Bulwell Common anyway and would then proceed, usually via the GN Leen Valley route, to York. It's the fifth vehicle that I find interesting but I can quite make out exactly what it is. It looks like a demountable tanker on a flat wagon but it's not that clear. The real shame is that seems to be so few photos of this train from which you can see how it was made up. Anyone any ideas? 

 

Good morning Clem,

 

my friend has done quite a bit of research and has gathered quite a few photographs of the Park Royal Guinness trains. I will ask him if he has anything on the Burton trains, it is quite possible that he may have something.

The shot below is of the demountable Guinness tanks at Newcastle.

 

http://railphotoprints.uk/p463656785/h24565680#h24565680

 

Edited to add a B16 at Nottingham Victoria.

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p114460009/h8B949C44#h8b949c44

Edited June 15, 2018 by Headstock

[Headstock]

There were one or two on High Dyke all those years ago and a lovely iron ore train was modelled and described in a series of MRJ articles by Geoff Kent. That train saw service on Retford for a while but now goes on Black Lion Crossing, Geoff's latest masterpiece (of believable fiction!).

 

Having said that, properly modelled ones, with an appropriate mix of wagon types, are rare.

 

High Dyke made a massive impression when I was a wee nipper, though I don't remember all the details. It is perhaps the only model railway layout that has permanently lodged itself in my memory over the intervening years. 

[t-b-g]

High Dyke made a massive impression when I was a wee nipper, though I don't remember all the details. It is perhaps the only model railway layout that has permanently lodged itself in my memory over the intervening years.

 

A full rake of the High Dyke iron ore wagons still does a turn on Retford, trundling round on the Great Central route. They are still only lettered on one side.....

[jwealleans]

These are some of the Appleby hoppers Graeme made for Grantham:

 

 

[Clem]

Good morning Clem,

 

my friend has done quite a bit of research and has gathered quite a few photographs of the Park Royal Guinness trains. I will ask him if he has anything on the Burton trains, it is quite possible that he may have something.

The shot below is of the demountable Guinness tanks at Newcastle.

 

http://railphotoprints.uk/p463656785/h24565680#h24565680

 

Thanks for that. What an interesting photo and one that shows tremendous detail. I think that the ones possibly used on the Burton trains were a bit smaller that the 6 wheel Guinness ones but detailed shots like this are priceless.

[St Enodoc]

High Dyke made a massive impression when I was a wee nipper, though I don't remember all the details. It is perhaps the only model railway layout that has permanently lodged itself in my memory over the intervening years. 

I remember the rat...

[Barry O]

Clem, that rake looks good. I may have convinced one of the etching/3DCAD team in the Leeds MRS to produce a set of etched for the LMS Iron Ore wagons as we need some for Chapel-en-le-Frith.

 

If he does do them I will let you know as it would be quicker than scratch building all of the rivets!

 

and I remember the tail lamp on the tail of the compensated rodent on High Dyke

 

Baz

[jamie92208]

Thanks for the kind comments but Tony G. is correct in saying Geoff Kent has modelled a complete rake of iron ore hoppers and to a much higher standard that mine. But I am learning...  Geoff is simply a magician when it comes to producing prototypical models. Having said that, his work has been massively inspiring to me and that hap-hazard, different heights of the hoppers is something I remember from being a child and is something I really wanted to represent. One of the things I'm trying to get to is to build a little batch of the LMS hoppers which seemed to be pretty numerous on the Stanton iron ore trains - but pretty well all types were represented. You're correct about the consist. The BR14 tanner is a Dave Bradwell Kit, the Charles Robets type are all Bachmann cut and shuts some modelled as ex-private owner and some as BR and Graeme King was kind enough to produce 3 extra Appleby-Frodingham hoppers from his Grantham batch. There isn't a WD type one...yet

 

Now... the Burton-York been train: Sorry about the quality but I've included a scan from the October 1957 Trains Illustrated in which P J Lynch has captured a moment when the Burton beer train had stalled on the steeply graded spur between Basford North (Basford and Bullwell) and Bulwell Common and had called upon the B16 for help. In the normal course of events, the B16 would have taken over at Bulwell Common anyway and would then proceed, usually via the GN Leen Valley route, to York. It's the fifth vehicle that I find interesting but I can quite make out exactly what it is. It looks like a demountable tanker on a flat wagon but it's not that clear. The real shame is that seems to be so few photos of this train from which you can see how it was made up. Anyone any ideas?

I believe that there is a beer museum at Burton on Trent that might have some information, possibly in a publicity leaflet.

 

Jamie