Wright writes.....

[Headstock]

On the subject of the Appleby Frodingham hoppers, I was shown a memo expressing concern over the number of these wagons that had gone missing and requesting their urgent return from all corners of the country. I forget now if the memo was pre or post-war, if it was the latter, then it perhaps shows that some attempt was being made to keep them marshaled together.

[The Stationmaster]

I think we were discussing the S&C running lines.

 

I certainly was - there were definitely some facing points on the branch side of the layout at Hawes Jcn/Garsdale but there was no facing connection onto the branch.  At least one facing point on the branch side of the layout is visible in a photo taken in Pre-Grouping times while another, complete with a facing point lock bar, is visible in a Post-War photo but the layout at that spot there was no different from the Pre-War layout (or indeed no different from a Midland Railway plan of the layout which I have).

 

The S&C main running lines definitely didn't have any facing points but that of itself was hardly unusual in view of the Board of Trade's contemporaneous general sanction on the use of facing points other than at junctions and major stations at the time the S^C was built.

[gr.king]

On the subject of the Appleby Frodingham hoppers, I was shown a memo expressing concern over the number of these wagons that had gone missing and requesting their urgent return from all corners of the country. I forget now if the memo was pre or post-war, if it was the latter, then it perhaps shows that some attempt was being made to keep them marshaled together.

 

Such a memo appears in a Turton book, with an indicated date of 1951.

[Compound2632]

I certainly was - there were definitely some facing points on the branch side of the layout at Hawes Jcn/Garsdale but there was no facing connection onto the branch.  At least one facing point on the branch side of the layout is visible in a photo taken in Pre-Grouping times while another, complete with a facing point lock bar, is visible in a Post-War photo but the layout at that spot there was no different from the Pre-War layout (or indeed no different from a Midland Railway plan of the layout which I have).

 

The S&C main running lines definitely didn't have any facing points but that of itself was hardly unusual in view of the Board of Trade's contemporaneous general sanction on the use of facing points other than at junctions and major stations at the time the S^C was built.

 

As built, there were four junctions - i.e. four facing points - on the S&C: Settle Junction, Appleby North Junction (for the link to the NE line), Durran Hill Junction (down main to down goods), and Petteril Bridge Junction. That's three facing points traversed northbound and one southbound. In 1941, the up and down lay-bye sidings at Blea Moor were converted to loops, adding an additional facing point in each direction.

 

I suspect that the reason the Midland has its reputation for a particular aversion to facing points lies in the fact that there were a lot of new works during the period of the BoT's strongest aversion to facing points but comparatively little re-development in the twentieth century, resulting in station layouts from the 1860s, 70s and 80s surviving virtually unchanged until the 1960s/70s.

 

Thinking about Hawes Junction, I'm wondering how the through Bradford (?) - Hawes train - the 'Boniface' - was handled. In the up direction, it could run from the branch platform straight on to the up main but in the down direction it must have set back across one of the two crossovers - I'm guessing the northerly one, as this would mean a single move to set back into the branch platform, rather than having to draw forward again. Whichever, the move would have been through a normally trailing crossover without FPL.

 

Ref. V.R. Anderson and G.K. Fox, Stations and Structures of the Settle & Carlisle Railway (OPC, 1986).

[LNER4479]

Thinking about Hawes Junction, I'm wondering how the through Bradford (?) - Hawes train - the 'Boniface' - was handled. In the up direction, it could run from the branch platform straight on to the up main but in the down direction it must have set back across one of the two crossovers - I'm guessing the northerly one, as this would mean a single move to set back into the branch platform, rather than having to draw forward again. Whichever, the move would have been through a normally trailing crossover without FPL.

I am fairly certain that was how it was done. I have a picture of the train at Garsdale with the coaches stabled in the branch platform whilst the loco is on the turntable - having propelled across the north crossover, it could then unhook and go straight back across and into the down loop, where the turntable road was sited. Thus turned, it would be bunker first for the easy drop down towards Hawes and right way round again for the stiff climb back up again and the remainder of its journey back to ?? sometimes Hellifield, latterly Bradford (I think).

 

Didn't always work out that way as I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one picture with the loco facing north (or east) on the Garsdale-Hawes stretch. A more awkward move to turn round at Garsdale on the way back, for sure.

[Compound2632]

I am fairly certain that was how it was done. I have a picture of the train at Garsdale with the coaches stabled in the branch platform whilst the loco is on the turntable - having propelled across the north crossover, it could then unhook and go straight back across and into the down loop, where the turntable road was sited. Thus turned, it would be bunker first for the easy drop down towards Hawes and right way round again for the stiff climb back up again and the remainder of its journey back to ?? sometimes Hellifield, latterly Bradford (I think).

 

Didn't always work out that way as I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one picture with the loco facing north (or east) on the Garsdale-Hawes stretch. A more awkward move to turn round at Garsdale on the way back, for sure.

 

I hadn't thought about turning the engine. Certainly you wouldn't want to be rattling down Ribblesdale in the cab of a tender-first 2P in any weather let alone what one usually gets up there! Apart from that train, I think the passenger services on the Hawes branch were worked by the North Eastern and its successors using tank engines.

[Michael Edge]

As built, there were four junctions - i.e. four facing points - on the S&C: Settle Junction, Appleby North Junction (for the link to the NE line), Durran Hill Junction (down main to down goods), and Petteril Bridge Junction. That's three facing points traversed northbound and one southbound. In 1941, the up and down lay-bye sidings at Blea Moor were converted to loops, adding an additional facing point in each direction.

 

I suspect that the reason the Midland has its reputation for a particular aversion to facing points lies in the fact that there were a lot of new works during the period of the BoT's strongest aversion to facing points but comparatively little re-development in the twentieth century, resulting in station layouts from the 1860s, 70s and 80s surviving virtually unchanged until the 1960s/70s.

 

Thinking about Hawes Junction, I'm wondering how the through Bradford (?) - Hawes train - the 'Boniface' - was handled. In the up direction, it could run from the branch platform straight on to the up main but in the down direction it must have set back across one of the two crossovers - I'm guessing the northerly one, as this would mean a single move to set back into the branch platform, rather than having to draw forward again. Whichever, the move would have been through a normally trailing crossover without FPL.

 

Ref. V.R. Anderson and G.K. Fox, Stations and Structures of the Settle & Carlisle Railway (OPC, 1986).

 

"Boniface", the last service on the branch ran from Hellifield to Hawes, the best information that we have is that it ran into the down platform and then set back into the bay. The loco was usually turned on the stockaded turntable and ran down to Hawes bunker first so that it would be chimney first on the way back (no turntable at Hawes). Having stopped in the bay platform it could then run straight out in the up direction - however I have seen a photo of the up train in the up main platform. It was taking water so possibly the water column in the bay was out of action that day but this would have required another shunt to get there.

[Michael Edge]

Boniface was normally worked by ex LMS 2-6-4T locos but the last mentioned one in the up platform was an Ivatt 2-6-2T. Prior to 1954 G5s seem to have been the usual motive power on the branch passenger, with some 0-6-0s.

[Northmoor]

A few more with a wider geographical spread.

 

I take my hat off to anybody who has atempted to model these trains, Clem has really captured them down to a tee. Perhaps his rake is only one of four ever built.

Where's the western one taken - I can't read the station nameboard?

 

This subject is an often forgotten piece of UK social history.  It made the news a few years ago when Britain's last deep coal mine closed - but we do still mine opencast coal - and it is hard to appreciate that in my lifetime we have gone from 100+ collieries to low single figures.  However, the UK iron ore quarrying industry has entirely vanished in living memory, but the public has much less awareness that it ever existed.

[Clearwater]

On coal, see below graph on UK production from Government figures. Pre WW1, Cardiff was the largest port in the world exporting double digit millions of tonnes of coal per annum. Absolutely astonishing levels of coal have been dug out. Currently, the uk uses c9mt of coal.

 

David

[Compound2632]

Boniface was normally worked by ex LMS 2-6-4T locos but the last mentioned one in the up platform was an Ivatt 2-6-2T. Prior to 1954 G5s seem to have been the usual motive power on the branch passenger, with some 0-6-0s.

 

In the 60s? My remark was based on a photo in Rails in the Fells showing 483 Class No. 470 on this train at Hawes c. 1947. The engine is indeed facing towards Hawes Junction. 

[Headstock]

Where's the western one taken - I can't read the station nameboard?

 

This subject is an often forgotten piece of UK social history.  It made the news a few years ago when Britain's last deep coal mine closed - but we do still mine opencast coal - and it is hard to appreciate that in my lifetime we have gone from 100+ collieries to low single figures.  However, the UK iron ore quarrying industry has entirely vanished in living memory, but the public has much less awareness that it ever existed.

 

Evening Northmoor,

 

the station is Leamington Spa.

[bike2steam]

Evening Northmoor,

 

the station is Leamington Spa.

 

Probably an iron ore working from Banbury to Bilston or Wrexham (Brymbo) steelworks, the massive iron ore quarry based at Wroxton, to almost Edge Hill, just outside Banbury began to be run down in the mid 1960's, and closed in the late 1960's. Some of it's workings, plus loads from some Northamptonshire quarries were carried via the S&MJR to the South Wales steelworks, I have fond memories of seeing such trains, hauled by Woodford Halse WD's held at Clifford Sidings, just outside Stratford Upon Avon, awaiting 'a path' onwards.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfordshire_Ironstone_Railway

Edited June 16, 2018 by bike2steam

[Michael Edge]

In the 60s? My remark was based on a photo in Rails in the Fells showing 483 Class No. 470 on this train at Hawes c. 1947. The engine is indeed facing towards Hawes Junction.

 

Yes, that's the period I've mostly been interested in but I've only found photos of tank locos working this train in the BR era.

[jrg1]

Where's the western one taken - I can't read the station nameboard?

 

This subject is an often forgotten piece of UK social history.  It made the news a few years ago when Britain's last deep coal mine closed - but we do still mine opencast coal - and it is hard to appreciate that in my lifetime we have gone from 100+ collieries to low single figures.  However, the UK iron ore quarrying industry has entirely vanished in living memory, but the public has much less awareness that it ever existed.

Add to that the trashing of the manufacturing industries and the creation of rustbelts.  Seeing coal being IMPORTED into Cardiff Docks in the early seventies was a pointer of the things to come.

[Northmoor]

Add to that the trashing of the manufacturing industries and the creation of rustbelts.  Seeing coal being IMPORTED into Cardiff Docks in the early seventies was a pointer of the things to come.

I can see the irony of importing coal into Cardiff, but it's a bit of a myth that manufacturing in this country was trashed. It just changed from low value items, mass-produced by mass labour (which would always be undercut by the Far East) to specialist, often low volume and high-value items produced by very skilled labour.  Far too many companies closed their eyes to this evolution and went to the wall, but those that adapted thrived and numerous new ones have joined them. 

[jrg1]

I can see the irony of importing coal into Cardiff, but it's a bit of a myth that manufacturing in this country was trashed. It just changed from low value items, mass-produced by mass labour (which would always be undercut by the Far East) to specialist, often low volume and high-value items produced by very skilled labour.  Far too many companies closed their eyes to this evolution and went to the wall, but those that adapted thrived and numerous new ones have joined them. 

When my local town went from 15,000 jobs to around 1000, with the remaining factories owned by the Germans (Siemens) and Italians(Bifrangi), and is an indicator of the UK generally-I prefer to say trashed.  

[EHertsGER]

As built, there were four junctions - i.e. four facing points - on the S&C: Settle Junction, Appleby North Junction (for the link to the NE line), Durran Hill Junction (down main to down goods), and Petteril Bridge Junction. That's three facing points traversed northbound and one southbound. In 1941, the up and down lay-bye sidings at Blea Moor were converted to loops, adding an additional facing point in each direction.

 

I suspect that the reason the Midland has its reputation for a particular aversion to facing points lies in the fact that there were a lot of new works during the period of the BoT's strongest aversion to facing points but comparatively little re-development in the twentieth century, resulting in station layouts from the 1860s, 70s and 80s surviving virtually unchanged until the 1960s/70s.

 

Thinking about Hawes Junction, I'm wondering how the through Bradford (?) - Hawes train - the 'Boniface' - was handled. In the up direction, it could run from the branch platform straight on to the up main but in the down direction it must have set back across one of the two crossovers - I'm guessing the northerly one, as this would mean a single move to set back into the branch platform, rather than having to draw forward again. Whichever, the move would have been through a normally trailing crossover without FPL.

 

Ref. V.R. Anderson and G.K. Fox, Stations and Structures of the Settle & Carlisle Railway (OPC, 1986).

Hawes Junction heh? Was that the site of an accident? I seem to recall the BBC TV series ‘Steam Horse, Iron Road’ featuring notable accidents using models - was it OS Nock presenting?

[Bucoops]

When my local town went from 15,000 jobs to around 1000, with the remaining factories owned by the Germans (Siemens) and Italians(Bifrangi), and is an indicator of the UK generally-I prefer to say trashed.  

Same here - we went from 4 major industrial employers (all manufacturers of high-spec, respected equipment) to one small but significant and that's now owned by a US company and we're just waiting for the inevitable.

[jamie92208]

Hawes Junction heh? Was that the site of an accident? I seem to recall the BBC TV series ‘Steam Horse, Iron Road’ featuring notable accidents using models - was it OS Nock presenting?

Yes there was an accident that is called Hawes Junction but actually occurred between there and Aisgill but was caused by mistakes by the signalman. O S Nock rode up from school at Giggleswick to see the burnt out wreckage. The chimney of the 2-4-0 pilot engine has just been identified and is now on display at Ribblehead station. It had been buried in the embankment at Garsdale.

 

 

Funnily enough I had wondered about Boniface and how it got onto the branch in the down direction, when I posted my original remarks about facing points. Now thanks to the vast pool of knowledge on here I know the answer.

 

 

Jamie

[Enterprisingwestern]

Now thanks to the vast pool of knowledge on here I know the answer.

 

A vast pool of knowledge is filled up by a lot of little drips, as my physics teacher used to say.

 

Mike.

[Paul Cram]

Does anyone know what loco was used around 1912-14 for the bomiface?

[LNER4479]

Does anyone know what loco was used around 1912-14 for the bomiface?

Well, now, that's a more interesting question than it first appears. I have just spent an enjoyable 20 mins looking through my reference material for the line, two separate references both state the following:

 

Prior to the First World War (possibly even to grouping), the Hawes Junction (Garsdale) to Hawes section was 100% worked by NER locos. The 'Boniface' (quoted as 'Bonnyface' in the books I have) was a service from Hellifield to Hawes Junction, which connected with the NER services there. In that era, there was a small NER loco shed at Hawes Junction (it burned down in 1917) and a NER loco was stabled there overnight (presumably stock also?) to work the first eastbound train of the day. The separate Garsdale-Hawes (rtn) service appears in the timetables from the LMS era onwards.

 

Hellifield shed had mainly 4-4-0s allocated (fancy that!) pre-WWI for passenger services although a few of the older 2-4-0s were still there at that time so the service could well have been worked by those.

 

Whilst looking through said reference material, I have also come across - shock, horror! - a 1958 Gavin Morrison photo of 42051 on said service taking water at the SOUTH end of the branch platform, with the rear of its train standing on the trailing points of the Up mainline. So it looks for all the world as if - on that day at least - the train accessed the branch by propelling over the crossover at the south end of the station.

[robertcwp]

Where's the western one taken - I can't read the station nameboard?

 

 

Looks like Leamington Spa.

[Northmoor]

Looks like Leamington Spa.

Thank you for both replies.  I might have guessed Leamington but it's a location I've only been to once so not very familiar with it.