Wright writes.....

[Denbridge]

2 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Sorry Jeff,

 

My photo-filing system isn't as efficient as I thought.

 

Here's your 'Castle'...............

 

 

And two other scratch-built locos you brought..........

 

 

 

What fascinating models. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Sadly, aside from hopefully sorting out the castle, I've done little else since September. Hopefully I'll achieve more in 2022.

[Tony Wright]

May I mention October?

 

Al Reynalds (Barry Ten) brought some models he's building along, including this Southern pair........

 

 

 

Both highly-creative and inventive, and all his own work...........

 

Unlike my Schools..............

 

 

Which I got Ian Rathbone to paint for me. 

 

Father and son, Steve and Robin Smith brought along things they were making..............

 

 

 

 

 

All extremely interesting.

 

 

I did a bit more on my DJH A3............

 

 

 

Just two months left. 

[Dylan Sanderson]

‘Hey look, that coat of paint has dried! Maybe I should do the next coat…’

 

Nahhh let’s get some models out

 

Slow (but good) progress on Deerness Valley Junction!

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

How come the double shadow on ply vans when the planked versions only throw one? Does the roof have greater overhang? 

 

I've always thought the RH shadow was thrown by the upper door runner.

 

John

 

Evening John,

 

Its the door runner that casts the shadow. On the plywood van it is particularly prominent on both sides of the door.

 

 

[90164]

9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

 

 

Number one for worst van currently on sale for lots of dosh?

 

https://oliviastrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/147126643337803A1.jpg

That is poor. It has the strapping on the body which was most usually applied by BR, and it would almost certainly have had the LMS fitted chassis with J hanger springs and 8 shoe brake gear. So body wrong and chassis wrong. Not got a lot going for it.

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, great central said:

 

The angle and lighting on the last pic of 70052, latterly Firth of Tay, really makes it look like it's shouldering the load. Superb.

 

Boars Head bank is a 2 mile 1 in 105 bank from Wigan to Boars Head, slackening just a bit for a few more miles to the summit at Coppull. Not exactly Shap but not easy, a stiff climb for steam and indeed heavy diesel hauled freight trains struggle a bit even now. The electrics simply fly up, the heavy double headed electric container trains go up at 80mph or so and rattle my windows a bit as I live close to the line here.

 

But oh, the Brits in their final years were simply superb here.

 

Brit15

 

 

[Headstock]

11 minutes ago, 90164 said:

That is poor. It has the strapping on the body which was most usually applied by BR, and it would almost certainly have had the LMS fitted chassis with J hanger springs and 8 shoe brake gear. So body wrong and chassis wrong. Not got a lot going for it.

 

Good evening 90164,

 

that's the retooled chassis believe it or not. Just to squeeze the last drop of blood out of the old nag. 

[Dunsignalling]

24 minutes ago, 90164 said:

That is poor. It has the strapping on the body which was most usually applied by BR, and it would almost certainly have had the LMS fitted chassis with J hanger springs and 8 shoe brake gear. So body wrong and chassis wrong. Not got a lot going for it.

Even less than you think, and that's before you go anywhere near the body with a ruler.

 

You may also notice that the plain brake lever and that with the Morton clutch have been transposed relative to the brake push rods...

 

John

Edited December 27, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I'd like to contribute to the great wagon debate if I may? The following series of pictures illustrate the approach we've taken in trying to depict some representative / typical such trains on the Shap exhibition layout.

 

For Shap 1967 (put together for Warley 2017), we put together some representative trains, largely using the stock we had, based on photos in the Ivo Peters 1965-1967 book. Studying the photos carefully started to reveal patterns in terms of the typical formation of the trains and the types of wagons. Most were too long for us to accurately represent so we actually put together the trains using clutches of wagons that we could identify such that the overall look of the train was representative.

 

Here's one of the banked trains that has survived into the more general 1953-1967 rolling timeframe that we now depict (your picture, Tony, taken at said Warley show). There are a few ‘specials’ in the formation but they are based on the photos, so two Prestwins toward the front and then a lone gunpowder wagon immediately behind the rake of coal wagons. Other than that, it’s vans and opens, including one tarpaulin’d one and a container in an open wagon – again based on what we observed in photos. Unless those mineral wagons are through piped, then this can only be a Class 'D' goods at best (first third fitted). (all trains now carry lamps, before Tony leaps in!)

 

Once we expanded our time frame, then we had much more to go at. This is based on an Eric Bruton 1952 photo and I invite ridicule posting this as this was our first attempt to put the train together and there’s one or two nonsense wagons in there at the moment. Nevertheless, in terms of overall appearance, it’s intended to give the impression of the train in the prototype picture. Of note is that the front half of the train is entirely ‘big four’ or even earlier wagons, including quite a few kit builds – the BR standard wagon build had hardly got going at this point [1952]. The eagle-eyed wagon spotters amongst us identified the ninth vehicle in the prototype train as being an ex-L&Y van with roof doors which has since been constructed (thanks Barry O). The back half of the train is more making up the numbers for now – let’s call it ‘work in progress’. But note - no 'specials' in this at all; it's all just vans and opens (unless we're counting the containers as 'specials'?)

 

A firm favourite of mine - the fully fitted van train. This is an intermittent 30 year labour of love as many of these vans are kit built (by me), starting with the earliest Parkside kits (remember, the ones with the horrible moulded wheelsets?), my introduction to wagon kit building. It’s actually inspired by a picture of such a train on the Settle & Carlisle route, beautifully side lit in the late afternoon sun. What is so striking is the rich variety of colours and shades to be seen, given that all should ostensibly be painted the same colour! Also the seemingly random, higgledy-piggledy arrangement of van styles and roof profiles and that is what I have gone for in this recreation. I reckon no more than 50% BR vans. Looking at pictures, this seems to me to be entirely representative of the period. It’s also probably one of the highest earning trains running as this would be a high speed, premium rate service. There may be one 'stunted' LMS van in there (for now) - sorry! [Andy York picture, taken at the Peterborough show]

 

 

 

 

Finally, our closest recreation of an actually train yet. There are several 1960s Derek Cross pictures of the ‘Maiden Lane’ service, another fast, premium rate train, conveying perishables and other time-sensitive traffic. It was often Duchess hauled (or at least, Mr Cross raised his camera whenever one appeared!) and was also not overly long (perhaps a reflection of the rapid loss of freight to road by this time?) making it eminently modellable. There’s a couple of ‘not quites’ but otherwise it’s pretty much wagon-for-wagon. Of note are the high proportion of containers wagons (7), the two shock vans marshalled at the front of the train, two wagons transporting road vehicles and the ‘Palvan’ (kit built specially for the train – thanks Paul). What gets commented on most however are the two milk wagons at the rear of the train (there’s actually three in the prototype picture). ‘That’s not right?!’ is the frequent cry – but it is. Milk tail traffic was a feature of the old Lancaster & Carlisle going back well into LMS days (several 1930s Treacy pictures show this). Whether it should have been or not is a different matter but the camera doesn’t lie (least it didn’t in those days!)

[Andy York picture, taken at the Peterborough show - one of my favourites of the layout so far. Pity the vac pipe has fallen off the front!]

 

 

In summary? If these trains ‘look right’ then that’s because they’re based on study of prototype pictures in terms of what was actually seen running on the route during the timeframe being modelled. I’m not overly concerned about every last wagon being to the exact diagram number seen in the photograph (if that can even be determined) – rather our approach was ‘third wagon in the train was a fitted, ventilated van. Right, who’s got one of those?’. It doesn’t matter (to me) whether it’s ex-LMS, ex-GWR or BR. Because, in a sense, you’re representing the situation in the goods depot where the consignment was loaded up. A fitted ventilated van was required so the nearest one to hand will do. One day it might be an ex-GWR one; the next day, it’s a BR standard one. Doesn’t matter – the consignment is still going to get to its destination in broadly the same conditions, at the same time and the customer is going to pay the same rate (assuming it doesn’t get damaged in transit).

 

If you're interested Tony (although you've already said you're not), I'll happily spend a few hours at LB, armed with your infinte selection of photos of ECML freight trains - and we'll remarshall accordingly, based on the stock you have, and see what we come up with. Sounds like a fun day to me?

 

Happy to hear any comments from the cognescenti.

 

I’ll be back in a bit with a few more general thoughts.

As a general comment, and harking back to the discussion a few pages ago, those trains look extremely realistic even though, for the sound reasons you've set out in the paragraph that I've highlighted in bold, they are not 100% authentic. Very nice.

 

Now, nothing to do with wagons but a serious question about signals/operations, prompted by your third photo. Is a non-coupled banker considered part of a single train? If not, what are the rules for it passing a signal at Stop?

[LNER4479]

42 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

Now, nothing to do with wagons but a serious question about signals/operations, prompted by your third photo. Is a non-coupled banker considered part of a single train? If not, what are the rules for it passing a signal at Stop?

At risk of a whole new conversation breaking out, I might be able to answer that.

 

One of our Shap operators is a career railway man, steeped in the world of signalling (handy). He informs me that, in the world of mechanical boxes (he worked a few in his formative years), a signal was never replaced to danger until the whole train had passed it (otherwise the guard - at the rear of the train - has a brown trouser moment); however, in the case of a banked train, the section signal at the  summit would be returned to danger as soon as the train engine passes it. That way, the driver of the train engine gets a proceed aspect; the banker driver has a stop aspect - and therefore has to stop. The guard ... presumably understands the working arrangements and thus has no need to panic. 

 

Works perfectly on the layout as the action of setting the section signal back to danger switches the 'station limits' track section to a different controller, thus allowing the summit operator to bring the banker to a stand at the section signal whilst the main train carries on into the fiddle yard.

Edited December 27, 2021 by LNER4479

[bbishop]

WAGONS

 

I've extracted most of this data from the work of Essery and Rowland.  I presented most of this information earlier in the month but some people have already forgotten it.

 

Freight Wagons - it took perhaps three years for BR wagons to appear in any numbers so my starting point is 1950, when the percentages of company wagons was LMS 44%; LNER 33%; certain other railway 17%; SR 6%.  Then wagon building was cyclical and the LMS built many thousand open wagons in the 1920s to replace the D229 (o D299?) wagons inherited from the MR; meanwhile the SR barely built a wagon between 1923 - 29. 

 

Wagon building was disrupted by WW2 so a good proportion of company stock  would need to be replaced by 1960.  I'm going to say 50% but would be happy to see a better figure.  So perhaps 50% of wagons would be BR in 1960, so halving the percentages of company wagons given above.

 

Then somewhere between 80 -90% would be vans or containers, less than 10% opens, way less than 10% specials.

 

Mineral wagons - the huge majority would be either 13 ton wooden wagons or 16 ton steel wagons.  13 ton would be mainly 7 or 8 plank and marked E, M or (the great majority) P.  16 ton would be marked B, with a tiny number of M (I run an LMS D2134 wagon!).  At some point there were more 16 ton than 13 ton, I reckon this happened in the late 1950s, again happy for someone to provide a more precise date.

 

So how are freight trains made up?  I accept there will be differences between fast and slow trains, but I shall keep things very simple.  If one analysed every train running through (say) Little Bytham for a week then the figures should be close to those expounded above.  But individual trains will not agree with these figures.  Four consecutive trains of 25 wagons should have a total of 3 SR wagons.  But they won't - they could have zero or they could have six or more. Almost purely random.

 

So the same arguments apply to the model of Little Bytham.    Tony is culling wagons that are "wrong".  But the wagons that are "right" should not be run in statistically precise trains, it's not how the railways were operated.

 

Bill

 

[Jesse Sim]

2 hours ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

‘Hey look, that coat of paint has dried! Maybe I should do the next coat…’

 

Nahhh let’s get some models out

 

Slow (but good) progress on Deerness Valley Junction!

I’m sick of these upside down Australian Jokes. 

[Iain.d]

I have found quite a few of the previous posts on ratios of different railway company stock being prevalent in a particular part of the country quite interesting – certainly not something I have spent much time considering previously.

 

I showed the wagons I completed this year a few pages back - a very generic bunch of stock.  I like doing wagons as background projects and time fillers with many of the individual tasks not taking very long at all - I can often break up building them into 10 or 15 minutes chunks of time.

 

On the clutter of my work bench today there are three more wagons under construction: two BR ‘Conflat As’ and an LNER ‘Conflat S’.

 

 

Don Rowland, in British Railway Wagons (p136), states ‘there was one container wagon for every fifteen wagons in 1967 compared with one for every sixty-five wagons twenty years previously’. If I think about this in proportion to what I might end up with as stock on my future layout and its intended timeline, I don’t think I’ll be building anymore conflats, as much as I like them! Probably need lots more mineral opens and box vans though.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[Tony Wright]

Out of possible interest, with regard to the on-going discussion on goods trains.

 

A few B1-hauled freights/parcels..................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think most codes are covered. 

 

Please, make of these what you will. I know most of the locations, but not all. At least a couple show that, even into the '60s there were still plenty of wooden-bodied minerals running.

 

Please respect copyright restrictions. I'm allowed the privilege of showing these but only if restrictions are observed. 

 

Any comments, gratefully received.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Tony Wright]

And, something else of possible interest..............

 

With comments regarding ex-SR vans being ubiquitous, how about these?

 

 

 

 

As far as I know, all these are Peterborough-Grimsby (nominal) five-sets, so nowhere near the SR. 

 

And, here's a Grimsby-Peterborough.

 

 

Could that be an ex-GW 'Fruit D' at the front? 

 

Again, please respect copyright.

 

Food for thought? 

 

 

[dibateg]

In O gauge there was a woeful lack of fitted five plank opens until Dapol brought out their version. I built a number from ABS kits and hybrid kits made from Parkside components. One also, has to be quite determined to build up a variety of vans and at least I managed to obtain a few Freightman kits, which are no longer available. The late Frank Titman appears to have got the appearance of the LMS van right with it's tall sides, seen here alongside a Slaters BR plywood van.

 

I had a very busy workbench at one time with commission builds as well as my own

I must get a picture of the van train to see if it meets with approval!

 

I'm enjoying the year in review Tony.

 

Regards

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

[LNER4479]

29 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

A few B1-hauled freights/parcels..................

 

 At least a couple show that, even into the '60s there were still plenty of wooden-bodied minerals running.

 

Please respect copyright restrictions. I'm allowed the privilege of showing these but only if restrictions are observed. 

 

Any comments, gratefully received.

 

 

Any interesting selection, Tony. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time this morning but, from a quick look through just now, I don't see too many wooden-bodied MINERAL wagons. Plenty of wooden-bodied open goods wagons (eg photo 12) but they're different animals.

 

The only one with an appreciable number in is photo 11 and the loco has the early emblem which points to more mid-to-late 1950s. Photo 2 is far more typical of your 1960s coal train.

(Apologies if I'm out with the counting. It's a bit of a quick reply using the mobile phone. They're interesting trains and I'd love to spend time commenting in more detail)

[90164]

12 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening 90164,

 

that's the retooled chassis believe it or not. Just to squeeze the last drop of blood out of the old nag. 

Didn't the original chassis have some weird representation of BR lifting link brake gear?

 

Regards

 

Frank

[Dunsignalling]

Also to be borne in mind is that from the mid-late 1930s, the Big Four had begun to build more fitted vans for fast goods traffic. These gave better security and weather protection, and would save many man hours expended in sheeting open wagons; closing and securing a door takes but a few seconds.....

 

BR accelerated the process and also conducted a very comprehensive programme of adding  vacuum brakes to unfitted company wagons of 10' wheelbase, both vans and newer open merchandise wagons. 

 

This led to a progressive decline in the numbers of open merchandise wagons. Unfitted types were either modernised, if suitable, or prioritised for withdrawal as and when fitted vehicles became available to replace them. 

 

By the late 1950s, the railway scene was therefore considerably more "van heavy" than it had been even a decade earlier, let alone two, and the  formerly ubiquitous sheeted open wagon was becoming an increasingly uncommon sight.

 

John

[Tony Wright]

8 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Any interesting selection, Tony. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time this morning but, from a quick look through just now, I don't see too many wooden-bodied MINERAL wagons. Plenty of wooden-bodied open goods wagons (eg photo 12) but they're different animals.

 

The only one with an appreciable number in is photo 11 and the loco has the early emblem which points to more mid-to-late 1950s. Photo 2 is far more typical of your 1960s coal train.

(Apologies if I'm out with the counting. It's a bit of a quick reply using the mobile phone. They're interesting trains and I'd love to spend time commenting in more detail)

Thanks for the clarification Graham,

 

Interestingly, the loco in photo two (which I think is at Portobello) is lamped-up as a pick-up goods. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Dunsignalling]

11 minutes ago, 90164 said:

Didn't the original chassis have some weird representation of BR lifting link brake gear?

 

Regards

 

Frank

Those were the old Airfix ones; the chassis wasn't nice, but the bodies were (and are, Dapol still make them) far superior to the Mainline, and later, Bachmann efforts.

 

Also more BR than LMS, though, with the additional strapping. If you don't want that, the Ratio kit is the only easily obtainable source of 1930s-built LMS vans.... 

 

John

Edited December 28, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Tony Wright]

Not much happened in November, and since it's only last month, these will be familiar....

 

 

I started on this DJH Raven A2 (I hope to show more progress later this week).

 

 

Friend Vincent Worthington brought along this magnificent O Gauge Claughton he'd made. Unfortunately, in positioning it for the camera (not me), the horizontal handrail had become dislodged. Fortunately, it's back where it belongs now. No one noticed (other than Tony Gee) when I first showed this picture. I certainly didn't. 

 

I had some GWR stuff to sell (still got some).

 

 

By far the best of which was this Pro-Scale Saint. It went in a flash, and a bereaved family had some cash for Christmas! 

 

 

Geoff West weathered this (Ray Lightfoot) scratch-built V2. 

 

And Tom Foster weathered Bytham's bus. 

 

 

I know it's wrong (not the weathering, which is superb) and one day...................

 

December a little bit later....................

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

I was talking to a friend the other day, He is actually the only person I know who had a railway station named after an ancestor. A halt to be precise, but a station sounds better.

This was Godwin's Halt on the Midland branch to Hemel. The only late 1950s photo that I can find has one 16 t mineral wagon in the siding which makes modelling a typical train quite straight forward. It was much busier in an earlier period.

The branch was unusual in that the traffic flows were very specific with much of it being van traffic picking up paper products from John Dickinson's. SR vans tending to be over represented.  An SR brake van with the offset ducket as done by Bachmann was used at one time.

One photo from around 1956 shows a train from one of the sidings with:- an SR van, 2 wooden minerals, 2 standard 16 t minerals and 1 slope sided mineral. Certainly an unusual branch traffic wise.

Bernard

[bbishop]

48 minutes ago, dibateg said:

In O gauge there was a woeful lack of fitted five plank opens until Dapol brought out their version. I built a number from ABS kits and hybrid kits made from Parkside components. One also, has to be quite determined to build up a variety of vans and at least I managed to obtain a few Freightman kits, which are no longer available. The late Frank Titman appears to have got the appearance of the LMS van right with it's tall sides, seen here alongside a Slaters BR plywood van.

 

I had a very busy workbench at one time with commission builds as well as my own

I must get a picture of the van train to see if it meets with approval!

 

I'm enjoying the year in review Tony.

 

Regards

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

Tony, he wasn't Frank Titman, but for the life of me I can't quite remember his name and my old Gazettes are inaccessible.  Was he Frank Titcombe?  After his wife died, his son-in-law took him to a Reading show and I bought a lot of his kits - just two LMs refrigerated vans to finish.  Adrian Swain was obviously a friend because he would cast underframes for Frank.  Interesting little beasts to build; my technique was to araldite plasticard to the inside of Frank's thermoplastic sides, chamfer the ends and build as per a Slaters kit.

Bill

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

 

As far as I know, all these are Peterborough-Grimsby (nominal) five-sets, so nowhere near the SR. 

 

And, here's a Grimsby-Peterborough.

 

 

Could that be an ex-GW 'Fruit D' at the front? 

 

Again, please respect copyright.

 

Food for thought? 

 

 

It is indeed, but possibly one of the BR-built batch. The BR designation was "PasFruit D".

 

John