Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

That was very much a Malcolm Crawley "hallmark". If he heard anybody calling them "Thompson" he would "correct" them. So whoever said they should be called "Newton" carriages was either him or somebody he had "educated".

 

He wasn't a fan of Edward Thompson and just didn't like hearing him being credited for things that he had little to do with.

 

He even called his layout "Thompson's End" because, in his view, it didn't come soon enough.

 

Malcolm did have a B1 though. Not "really" a Thompson loco at all you know. It was designed by Darlington drawing office and is really just a more modern NER loco.

 

That was Malcolm's view, though I fully appreciate that not everybody shares it.

Thanks Tony,

 

I think many share Malcolm's view on ET. 

 

Down the years, the LNER's middle CME has received some criticism. 

 

I believe a new book by Simon Martin seeks to 'redress the balance', so to speak. I haven't seen it, though having once called Thompson a 'genius', the author seems to be rather free with his compliments. Was Gresley a 'genius'? Possibly, but not ET. 

 

The recent Pen and Sword book on Edward Thompson is more-measured, and I think is a fairer assessment of the difficulties the new CME faced in 1941, after Gresley's premature death. 

 

One story which does illustrate Thompson's character concerns 'Bayonet', the armoured carriage produced for General Eisenhower during the war. Apparently, the whole thing was designed by Peppercorn and his team, but Thompson was unhappy when Pep' got the credit for it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

Edited April 28, 2022 by Tony Wright
typo error

[t-b-g]

25 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Tony,

 

I think many share Malcolm's view on ET. 

 

Down the years, the LNER's middle CME has received some criticism. 

 

I believe a new book by Simon Thompson seeks to 'redress the balance', so to speak. I haven't seen it, though having once called Thompson a 'genius', the author seems to rather free with his compliments. Was Gresley a 'genius'? Possibly, but not ET. 

 

The recent Pen and Sword book on Edward Thompson is more-measured, and I think is a fairer assessment of the difficulties the new CME faced in 1941, after Gresley's premature death. 

 

One story which does illustrate Thompson's character concerns 'Bayonet', the armoured carriage produced for General Eisenhower during the war. Apparently, the whole thing was designed by Peppercorn and his team, but Thompson was unhappy when Pep' got the credit for it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

I think you maybe have Thompson on your mind too much Tony!

 

The new book is by Simon Martin.

 

I haven't read it either. Thompson and his work are not really of any great interest to me.

[Tony Wright]

47 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I think you maybe have Thompson on your mind too much Tony!

 

The new book is by Simon Martin.

 

I haven't read it either. Thompson and his work are not really of any great interest to me.

Thanks Tony,

 

I must have!

 

Since corrected............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[31A]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Wouldn't the car's number be at the extreme right-hand end as well? 

 

Sometimes the position of the number varied, especially if the right hand panel was very small (as in this case) - it would be interesting to know if they've based that on a picture of a real coach.

 

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Any tail lamp should be attached to a bracket on the gangway end, not the coach end.

 

Quite agree!

[robertcwp]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The recent Pen and Sword book on Edward Thompson is more-measured, and I think is a fairer assessment of the difficulties the new CME faced in 1941, after Gresley's premature death. 

 

I think the P&S books by Tim Hillier-Graves on Gresley, Thompson and Peppercorn are all pretty balanced and measured accounts that seek to draw inferences only from information that can be substantiated. They also give a good picture of the environment in which all three operated. Not having been covered by any detailed biography previously, the Peppercorn one was the most interesting for me, and was the first one I read. I could barely put it down.

 

Something that the author observes about Thompson is that some known aspects of his character and conduct may indicate that he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of his experiences in WW1. I think my father had the same as a result of his WW2 experiences, although it was at least 10 years after his death before I began to realise that. 

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

I think you maybe have Thompson on your mind too much Tony!

 

The new book is by Simon Martin.

 

I haven't read it either. Thompson and his work are not really of any great interest to me.

Can we avoid saying 'Simon Martin' on this thread  - if it gets said 3 times in a row he might appear then we'll be harangued about funny looking Pacifics for eternity ;)

[Tony Wright]

Enough for the moment on Thompson's (Newton) carriages.

 

Progress on the Gibson 'Buffalo' has stalled a bit because of missing pieces.........

 

 

What an ugly-looking thing! 

 

 

[Ray Flintoft]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Tony,

 

I think many share Malcolm's view on ET. 

 

Down the years, the LNER's middle CME has received some criticism. 

 

I believe a new book by Simon Martin seeks to 'redress the balance', so to speak. I haven't seen it, though having once called Thompson a 'genius', the author seems to be rather free with his compliments. Was Gresley a 'genius'? Possibly, but not ET. 

 

The recent Pen and Sword book on Edward Thompson is more-measured, and I think is a fairer assessment of the difficulties the new CME faced in 1941, after Gresley's premature death. 

 

One story which does illustrate Thompson's character concerns 'Bayonet', the armoured carriage produced for General Eisenhower during the war. Apparently, the whole thing was designed by Peppercorn and his team, but Thompson was unhappy when Pep' got the credit for it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

Oh dear , here we go again . The story about Thompson & " Bayonet " is one of many apocryphal stories about Thompson of which there is no proof , he was the C.M.E. & Peppercorn & the design team were working under his general direction . Locomotives & coaches were designed by a team of draughtsman & engineers , not by the C.M.E. personally . We call the "Duchesses " a Stanier design , even though he wasn't even in the country when Coleman & his team designed them .

   Just a little correction , the B.1's , although the first was built at Darlington , were designed at Doncaster , with Ted Parker as the leading draughtsman . However they were designed to Thompson's specification with 2 cylinders  updated from class K.2 , a modified B.17 boiler, V. 2 wheels & as many standard parts as possible .

                                                              Ray .

 

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, Ray Flintoft said:

Oh dear , here we go again . The story about Thompson & " Bayonet " is one of many apocryphal stories about Thompson of which there is no proof , he was the C.M.E. & Peppercorn & the design team were working under his general direction . Locomotives & coaches were designed by a team of draughtsman & engineers , not by the C.M.E. personally . We call the "Duchesses " a Stanier design , even though he wasn't even in the country when Coleman & his team designed them .

   Just a little correction , the B.1's , although the first was built at Darlington , were designed at Doncaster , with Ted Parker as the leading draughtsman . However they were designed to Thompson's specification with 2 cylinders  updated from class K.2 , a modified B.17 boiler, V. 2 wheels & as many standard parts as possible .

                                                              Ray .

 

 

My apologies. Malcolm probably said Doncaster. After all, he worked in the drawing office there in the late 1940s and knew some of the people involved, who were still there. It is a long time since I had the pleasure of hearing his tales of his time on the railway and the old memory isn't as good as it used to be. He did definitely describe the B1 as a modern day NER design though. I think the two cylinders and round top firebox had something to do with that. Some parts of the design certainly reflected Thompson's NER heritage.

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Ray Flintoft said:

Oh dear , here we go again . The story about Thompson & " Bayonet " is one of many apocryphal stories about Thompson of which there is no proof , he was the C.M.E. & Peppercorn & the design team were working under his general direction . Locomotives & coaches were designed by a team of draughtsman & engineers , not by the C.M.E. personally . We call the "Duchesses " a Stanier design , even though he wasn't even in the country when Coleman & his team designed them .

   Just a little correction , the B.1's , although the first was built at Darlington , were designed at Doncaster , with Ted Parker as the leading draughtsman . However they were designed to Thompson's specification with 2 cylinders  updated from class K.2 , a modified B.17 boiler, V. 2 wheels & as many standard parts as possible .

                                                              Ray .

 

Good evening Ray,

 

I will look for the evidence regarding the story of 'Bayonet'. I read it quite recently, and I don't think it's an urban myth. Of course, it was a design team under the direction of a CME which produced the goods. However, from memory, it was Eisenhower who thanked Peppercorn, and, it would seem, Thompson disliked the fact.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, robertcwp said:

I think the P&S books by Tim Hillier-Graves on Gresley, Thompson and Peppercorn are all pretty balanced and measured accounts that seek to draw inferences only from information that can be substantiated. They also give a good picture of the environment in which all three operated. Not having been covered by any detailed biography previously, the Peppercorn one was the most interesting for me, and was the first one I read. I could barely put it down.

 

Something that the author observes about Thompson is that some known aspects of his character and conduct may indicate that he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of his experiences in WW1. I think my father had the same as a result of his WW2 experiences, although it was at least 10 years after his death before I began to realise that. 

 

6 hours ago, Ray Flintoft said:

Oh dear , here we go again . The story about Thompson & " Bayonet " is one of many apocryphal stories about Thompson of which there is no proof , he was the C.M.E. & Peppercorn & the design team were working under his general direction . Locomotives & coaches were designed by a team of draughtsman & engineers , not by the C.M.E. personally . We call the "Duchesses " a Stanier design , even though he wasn't even in the country when Coleman & his team designed them .

   Just a little correction , the B.1's , although the first was built at Darlington , were designed at Doncaster , with Ted Parker as the leading draughtsman . However they were designed to Thompson's specification with 2 cylinders  updated from class K.2 , a modified B.17 boiler, V. 2 wheels & as many standard parts as possible .

                                                              Ray .

 

 

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Ray,

 

I will look for the evidence regarding the story of 'Bayonet'. I read it quite recently, and I don't think it's an urban myth. Of course, it was a design team under the direction of a CME which produced the goods. However, from memory, it was Eisenhower who thanked Peppercorn, and, it would seem, Thompson disliked the fact.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

There was, of course, a lot more to being a CME than just leading the design of locomotives and rolling stock.

[Tony Wright]

Briefly (I hope) returning to Edward Thompson (who has been discussed ad nauseam - my fault, in part), I got the story wrong about 'Bayonet'. A letter was written to Ronald Matthews from Eisenhower thanking both Thompson and Peppercorn for producing the coach. I can't find the reference now, but Thompson would appear to have been displeased by the mention of a subordinate. Could it have been yet another piece of 'character assassination'?

 

Poor old ET certainly has received a bad press down the years, and perhaps it's right that more-recent works about him have been more sympathetic (though no mention is made of the near-rebellion in Scotland in the Pen and Sword book when the P2s were rebuilt, which Peppercorn was sent to 'quell'. The men who had to operate them knew their worth, and the rebuilds - the A2/2s - could never equal them in their pulling power). 

 

The fact remains that all his big engines never superseded those of his predecessor and were not as reliable as those of his successor (the A1/1 compared to an A1?), and none lasted as long. In the main, they worked from sheds which had much less top link work (New England and York, for instance), frequently on jobs well within their design capacity. That said, I've built dozens of models of them (three times as many A2/2s than those which actually existed!), and Hornby's recent renditions have sold really well. 

 

Is it just 'prejudice' that a new A1 has been built, a new P2 is under construction, a new V4 is mooted and so is a new B17? How many groups are contemplating building a new Thompson Pacific?

Edited April 29, 2022 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Tony Wright]

17 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Sometimes the position of the number varied, especially if the right hand panel was very small (as in this case) - it would be interesting to know if they've based that on a picture of a real coach.

 

 

Quite agree!

Thanks Steve,

 

I cannot find any picture with the number in the same position as on the Darstaed model. Bachmann's OO Gauge equivalents have it at the extreme RH end (there is enough space, just). 

 

Earlier ones had the number midships or (in some cases) at the LH end, but I've seen no evidence for it placed thus. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[30368]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

How many groups are contemplating building a new Thompson Pacific?

 

More's the pity, it is about time someone did......!

 

In case I am accused of being a Thompson Fanatic I am a Founder Member of the P2 project and hope I am able to attend the first run.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

[65179]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Briefly (I hope) returning to Edward Thompson (who has been discussed ad nauseam - my fault, in part), I got the story wrong about 'Bayonet'. A letter was written to Ronald Matthews from Eisenhower thanking both Thompson and Peppercorn for producing the coach. I can't find the reference now, but Thompson would appear to have been displeased by the mention of a subordinate. Could it have been yet another piece of 'character assassination'?

 

Poor old ET certainly has received a bad press down the years, and perhaps it's right that more-recent works about him have been more sympathetic (though no mention is made of the near-rebellion in Scotland in the Pen and Sword book when the P2s were rebuilt, which Peppercorn was sent to 'quell'. The men who had to operate them knew their worth, and the rebuilds - the A2/2s - could never equal them in their pulling power). 

 

The fact remains that all his big engines never superseded those of his predecessor and were not as reliable as those of his successor (the A1/1 compared to an A1?), and none lasted as long. In the main, they worked from sheds which had much less top link work (New England and York, for instance), frequently on jobs well within their design capacity. That said, I've built dozens of models of them (three times as many A2/2s than those which actually existed!), and Hornby's recent renditions have sold really well. 

 

Is it just 'prejudice' that a new A1 has been built, a new P2 is under construction, a new V4 is mooted and so is a new B17? How many groups are contemplating building a new Thompson Pacific?

 

Doesn't that list just show the fickleness of enthusiasts? It isn't a list based on need, useless for heritage railways, engineering excellence or even historical relevance. It's about the organisers' drive, expertise and money. Few enginemen would want to suffer the roughriding of a B17 again, but enthusiasts regard them amongst the most handsome of loco classes, for example.

 

Regrettably there has to be some doubt about whether some of the new builds will actually see use given the coal and environmental situation. I was very happy to see this pair in Cardiff this week:

A pair of my favourite loco class blowing off in proper LMS style at a former GWR station! I'm not counting on seeing this sight in this part of the world again.

 

Simon

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Few enginemen would want to suffer the roughriding of a B17 again,

 

Is there anyone currently qualified as a steam locomotive driver who has experience of driving a B17? They'd have to be over 90! So the point is moot; in designing a new-build B17 look-alike, such issues would be addressed.

[31A]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Steve,

 

I cannot find any picture with the number in the same position as on the Darstaed model. Bachmann's OO Gauge equivalents have it at the extreme RH end (there is enough space, just). 

 

Earlier ones had the number midships or (in some cases) at the LH end, but I've seen no evidence for it placed thus. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good morning Tony.  I anticipated the sound of a gauntlet being thrown down as I typed that!  Neither can I (now) although in the back of my mind I had seen something like it.  I think maybe the ones I was thinking of were some types of non gangwayed coach where the right hand panel was too small for the number to be painted on it.  Also I found pictures of Gresley gangwayed coaches in LNER livery with the number in that position (e.g. Michael Harris LNER Gresley Standard Carriages p.65), although the LNER number transfers were bigger than the BR ones.  Nevertheless it would be interesting to know whether the model manufacturers worked from a picture of a real coach.

[john new]

On 28/04/2022 at 09:50, Tony Wright said:

Evidence for all-white oval windows in Thompson cars...............

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please respect copyright restrictions on these images..............

 

 

Interesting paint finish (or lack of cleaning) on that first vehicle. Who dares put that one in an exhibition running rake?

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by john new
Dyslexic fingers again!

[Northmoor]

6 hours ago, 65179 said:

Doesn't that list just show the fickleness of enthusiasts? It isn't a list based on need, useless for heritage railways, engineering excellence or even historical relevance. It's about the organisers' drive, expertise and money. Few enginemen would want to suffer the roughriding of a B17 again, but enthusiasts regard them amongst the most handsome of loco classes, for example.

 

Regrettably there has to be some doubt about whether some of the new builds will actually see use given the coal and environmental situation. I was very happy to see this pair in Cardiff this week:

 

A pair of my favourite loco class blowing off in proper LMS style at a former GWR station! I'm not counting on seeing this sight in this part of the world again.

1. Why won't a Jubilee, or indeed any of the other LMS types with a main line certificate, be operating through Cardiff again?

2. If the B17 gets built, it's highly likely to spend the majority of its operating life on heritage railways at less than 30mph, so "rough-riding" won't be an issue.  It will be no less suitable for heritage operations than a Black 5, for example.

3. Each of the locos built or planned by the A1 SLT is based on meeting a requirement; the A1 & P2 fill gaps in preservation but are also large enough to haul economical length trains on the mainline and at a speed sufficient to keep them out of the way of regular services.  I agree they serve little purpose on heritage lines, but they do and won't operate on them very often.  The V4 especially, will be an ideal heritage line loco and very suitable for the Jacobite service, so will be able to earn its keep more easily than most locos.  You can hardly criticise "the organisers' drive, expertise and money"; you might as well say Manchester City and Liverpool only win the Premiership because they're better at football.

 

Which loco classes do YOU think should be replicated, "based on need, suitability for heritage railways, engineering excellence or even historical relevance"?

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, john new said:

Interesting paint finish (or lack of cleaning) on that first vehicle. Who dares put that one in an exhibition running rake?

 

I certainly wouldn't John,

 

It's certainly an interesting finish (cleaning not completed?).

 

What it does show, irrespective of the finish on the carriage's side, is the universal weathering of the underframes/bogies and the roofs. Something often missed by modellers, and something I try and achieve, even if the carriage sides are shiny. 

 

Some examples of a variety of different weathering effects on the underframes/bogies and roofs. I suppose, ends should be included as well......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not all my work, but also that of Tony Geary, Alan Buckenham and Geoff Haynes.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

A bit more done on the Gibson 'Buffalo'....

 

 

All you GWR modellers, don't you just love making those cranked lamp irons? 

 

 

[65179]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

1. Why won't a Jubilee, or indeed any of the other LMS types with a main line certificate, be operating through Cardiff again?

2. If the B17 gets built, it's highly likely to spend the majority of its operating life on heritage railways at less than 30mph, so "rough-riding" won't be an issue.  It will be no less suitable for heritage operations than a Black 5, for example.

3. Each of the locos built or planned by the A1 SLT is based on meeting a requirement; the A1 & P2 fill gaps in preservation but are also large enough to haul economical length trains on the mainline and at a speed sufficient to keep them out of the way of regular services.  I agree they serve little purpose on heritage lines, but they do and won't operate on them very often.  The V4 especially, will be an ideal heritage line loco and very suitable for the Jacobite service, so will be able to earn its keep more easily than most locos.  You can hardly criticise "the organisers' drive, expertise and money"; you might as well say Manchester City and Liverpool only win the Premiership because they're better at football.

 

Which loco classes do YOU think should be replicated, "based on need, suitability for heritage railways, engineering excellence or even historical relevance"?

 

I think you misunderstand the intended nature of my post  - quite possibly through me not expressing myself clearly enough.

 

I'm not arguing that they should be replicated on any of the criteria I mentioned. All the new builds, and indeed the resurrection of the former Barry etc residents, are wonderful achievements. My response was to the suggestion that new builds not including Thompson Pacifics told us anything about their popularity (or other form of merit).  Perhaps fickleness was the wrong word. The new build plans (not limited to LNER/ER) do range/have ranged from the well-planned and thoroughly costed through to the pie in the sky. Some have captured others' imagination, some have manifestly failed to do so for various reasons.

 

My comment about the Jubilees was because it is the first time I've seen a Jubilee in Cardiff despite living here for 20 years. I may well have missed a previous visit in that time, but by and large the WCR ones have stayed further north/east so seeing two together down here is lovely.  I hope I'm wrong about environmental concerns, issues around economical access to coal, or indeed even pathing difficulties, putting an end to mainline steam, but there is certainly a greater chance of it suffering as an unintended consequence of broader economic or policy aims than hitherto.

 

Simon

[Bernard Lamb]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Briefly (I hope) returning to Edward Thompson (who has been discussed ad nauseam - my fault, in part), I got the story wrong about 'Bayonet'. A letter was written to Ronald Matthews from Eisenhower thanking both Thompson and Peppercorn for producing the coach. I can't find the reference now, but Thompson would appear to have been displeased by the mention of a subordinate. Could it have been yet another piece of 'character assassination'?

 

Poor old ET certainly has received a bad press down the years, and perhaps it's right that more-recent works about him have been more sympathetic (though no mention is made of the near-rebellion in Scotland in the Pen and Sword book when the P2s were rebuilt, which Peppercorn was sent to 'quell'. The men who had to operate them knew their worth, and the rebuilds - the A2/2s - could never equal them in their pulling power). 

 

The fact remains that all his big engines never superseded those of his predecessor and were not as reliable as those of his successor (the A1/1 compared to an A1?), and none lasted as long. In the main, they worked from sheds which had much less top link work (New England and York, for instance), frequently on jobs well within their design capacity. That said, I've built dozens of models of them (three times as many A2/2s than those which actually existed!), and Hornby's recent renditions have sold really well. 

 

Is it just 'prejudice' that a new A1 has been built, a new P2 is under construction, a new V4 is mooted and so is a new B17? How many groups are contemplating building a new Thompson Pacific?

It is very hard to come to a definitive conclusion because of the very different conditions under which the three CMEs operated. The V4 and the B17 where built for very specific tasks. The Peppercorn A1s were supposed to have a second batch built but this was stopped. The  LMS at the same point in time was developing diesels. The pre war Armstrong Whitworth mainline prototype machine might have been a better way to go. The man in the middle did build the B1. If he was to be judged on that the general opinion might well be different.

Bernard

[Ray Flintoft]

On 28/04/2022 at 17:33, t-b-g said:

 

My apologies. Malcolm probably said Doncaster. After all, he worked in the drawing office there in the late 1940s and knew some of the people involved, who were still there. It is a long time since I had the pleasure of hearing his tales of his time on the railway and the old memory isn't as good as it used to be. He did definitely describe the B1 as a modern day NER design though. I think the two cylinders and round top firebox had something to do with that. Some parts of the design certainly reflected Thompson's NER heritage.

  Thanks , Tony ,

        I think any resemblance to NER tradition probably came from the Chief Locomotive Draughtsman D.D Gray who was ex Darlington as were some of his team . I seem to remember that Malcolm Crawley referred to them as "Ted Parker's engines " in the Gresley Observer .

                                              Cheers ,

                                                       Ray .

[Ray Flintoft]

22 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Ray,

 

I will look for the evidence regarding the story of 'Bayonet'. I read it quite recently, and I don't think it's an urban myth. Of course, it was a design team under the direction of a CME which produced the goods. However, from memory, it was Eisenhower who thanked Peppercorn, and, it would seem, Thompson disliked the fact.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

  I think it appeared in the Rogers book & was communicated to the author by the late Dorothy  Mather many years later . The letter from Eisenhower thanked both Thompson & Peppercorn . I find it difficult to believe that the man who pushed for Peppercorn to receive an MBE  & recommended him to the Board as CME would get upset over this , which is why I consider it " not proven "

                                                                                        Cheers ,

                                                                                              Ray .