Wright writes.....

[chris p bacon]

10 hours ago, 31A said:

 

It can't run like that on a layout, it needs the other half building!  The GN Quad Art sets only ever ran as two sets coupled (8 coach trains);

 

I've got a timetable for the late 50's which has a 16.06 Hitchin to Sandy with just 1 set. After terminating at Sandy it ran back to Hitchin empty stock

Edited October 22, 2022 by chris p bacon

[31A]

2 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I've got a timetable for the late 50's which has just 1 set terminating at Sandy on a late afternoon service (the preserved set formed it once) It then formed an early morning up service (IIRC)

 

I believe when the timetable and other working documents refer to 'one set' of these coaches they mean two halves, i.e. it was an 8 coach train.  The 8 coach sets had the same set number painted on each end; the two halves weren't normally uncoupled.  The buffers between the two halves were much shorter than normal, and the two halves were coupled by a single link coupling; not the kind of thing that could be coupled to a locomotive in normal service.  I believe they sometimes made 'special arrangements' if it was necessary to move one half on its own, e.g. if one half was damaged.

 

If you're thinking of the article that appeared in the HMRS Journal a few years ago, about carriage workings on King's Cross-Peterborough trains, I don't think the author appreciated this!

 

[Richard_A]

There are usually a selection of kirk kits on ebay, so that might be an option for obtaining some more. 

 

I managed to buy the gresley buffet carriages from eBay but did have to wait until I found some at a decent price. 

[Jesse Sim]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

It'll be here for you in March Jesse,

 

As Steve has mentioned, you'll have to make another set.

 

General questions; are the Kirk Quad-Arts still available?

 

And, has anyone else made an eight-coach set? 

 

I never saw the real things in operation (though sets were stored as spare at Bounds Green when I first went past). I believe they were used on Saturdays as 'excursion stock' to places such as Skegness. Is this true? If so, the occupants must have had enormous bladders! They certainly never ran through Retford in my experience. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Many thanks Tony, 

 

Yeah I know, surely another set will pop up one day in the future. 
 

We have a few months to find out a price…

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

It'll be here for you in March Jesse,

 

As Steve has mentioned, you'll have to make another set.

 

General questions; are the Kirk Quad-Arts still available?

 

And, has anyone else made an eight-coach set? 

 

I never saw the real things in operation (though sets were stored as spare at Bounds Green when I first went past). I believe they were used on Saturdays as 'excursion stock' to places such as Skegness. Is this true? If so, the occupants must have had enormous bladders! They certainly never ran through Retford in my experience. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

There is a lot of information about the sets on here, where there is a superb photo of the very lovely preserved "half train". That has now run as a 4 car set, so perhaps the model is more use on a preserved railway than it is on a steam era layout.

 

To save everybody reading it all, the remaining sets were transferred to Sheffield in April 1966 and were used on excursions to the East Coast  until September 1966. So the bladder problems would not be as bad as if they were coming all the way from London. In any event, they could have stopped at Doncaster and maybe again at Lincoln for a "comfort break", which is what the non corridor, non lavatory fitted trains of earlier days used to do. They may also have been used from London on weekend excursions too, with stops along the way.

 

  https://www.mandgn.org/overall-collection/quad-art-set-no.74

Edited October 22, 2022 by t-b-g
To add content

[thegreenhowards]

I have a full length quad art built from the Kirk kits. It was the first kit I built after coming back into the hobby c.10 years ago., so is a little ropey! I didn't realise that it needed handrails on the doors and other detailing stuff - I just followed the instructions. The underframe instructions were along the lines of 'this should really have truss rods which you can build from the wire included or we include angle iron for an easier option'. I did the truss rods.

 

Here is a photo of my set on Gresley Jn.

 

...and a link to a video of it in action.

 

 

The kit is no longer available, and I have been keeping an eye out on eBay for a reasonably priced second set, but they all seem to go quite serious money.

 

As I'm now mainly modelling in O gauge, I've gone for an O gauge example instead. Six of the eight carriages are now built - here are the first four.

 

 

[Guest Simon A.C. Martin]

15 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Speaking of 'layout coaches/trains', how about this set?

 

 

 

 

It is (I think) a Kirk Quad-Art (builder unknown).

 

It was donated for me to sell for CRUK. It runs very well (I don't have many LNER locos to pull it, so my scratch-built K4 had to do). 

 

I cannot comment on its accuracy (or, probably, lack of it). Didn't these sets have turnbuckle trussing and oval buffers? It's missing some branding as well, but, to me, it looks 'OK'.

 

Those who know much more about these kits than I do will (probably) 'pull it to pieces', but, that said, what might it be worth, please?

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Thank you in anticipation. 

 

 

 

Is this available Tony, or has it gone already? I would be prepared to give it a home as I have the other half I have been building for myself here (which would give me an accurate 8 coach train).

[chris p bacon]

3 hours ago, 31A said:

If you're thinking of the article that appeared in the HMRS Journal a few years ago, about carriage workings on King's Cross-Peterborough trains, I don't think the author appreciated this!

 

Thanks Steve, that is new info to me (it's a bit late for my period) and yes that is the article I have a copy of.

[MJI]

I am building a MR 2P from a RTR body (Airfix Hornby) with MR tender, Comet chassis.

 

I will sell the motor tender to recover some cost. The loco chassis is broken.

 

I have worked out I can fit the biggest High Level motor and Highflyer gearbox in it.

 

Most body changes are done, only washout plugs to do before painting.

 

And yes my modelling is eclectic.

 

Will be modelled as near end of life in late 50s. It may not get a suitable layout. Or it will share a small one with some early green DMUs. I do know that it was used very near the route of the Snow Hill South Wales Intercity DMUs and the ex GWR railcars.

 

I must stop buying photo books of 1950 on railways.

[Chuffer Davies]

4 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

I have worked out I can fit the biggest High Level motor and Highflyer gearbox in it.

I’m wondering what your motivation is for choosing to install the largest of the High Level motors in your 2P model?

The more space occupied by the motor the less space is available for ballast and 4-4-0’s are notorious for being nose heavy suggesting  that you will want to get as much ballast as far back in the loco as possible.  I suggest that the motor need only to be sufficiently powerful as to be able to spin the wheels, rather than stalling, under maximum load.  To achieve maximum haulage potential it might be better to consider installing a smaller but still adequately powered motor rather than an overly powerful motor leaving less room for ballast.  In my experience the High Level 13/20 coreless motor whilst small is still more than adequate to spin the wheels in your 2P and would provide more space for ballast thus improving haulage.

Just a thought….

Frank

[MJI]

8 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

I’m wondering what your motivation is for choosing to install the largest of the High Level motors in your 2P model?

The more space occupied by the motor the less space is available for ballast and 4-4-0’s are notorious for being nose heavy suggesting  that you will want to get as much ballast as far back in the loco as possible.  I suggest that the motor need only to be sufficiently powerful as to be able to spin the wheels, rather than stalling, under maximum load.  To achieve maximum haulage potential it might be better to consider installing a smaller but still adequately powered motor rather than an overly powerful motor leaving less room for ballast.  In my experience the High Level 13/20 coreless motor whilst small is still more than adequate to spin the wheels in your 2P and would provide more space for ballast thus improving haulage.

Just a thought….

Frank

 

The problem is the slightly smaller ones do not leave much more room, but the big one is fatter and shorter than the small one so hopefully I can get a bigger lump of lead in there.

 

Plus of course tender can lean on it.

[thegreenhowards]

6 hours ago, Simon A.C. Martin said:

 

Is this available Tony, or has it gone already? I would be prepared to give it a home as I have the other half I have been building for myself here (which would give me an accurate 8 coach train).

Be careful when shopping for the second half as the two x four car sets aren’t the same. One was originally a composite with 1st, 2nd and 3rd class. This was declassified by the ‘50s but the compartment spacing was still different.

[Willie Whizz]

Isinglass list two varieties of GNR Quad-Art on their website if you fancy a crack at 3D-printed kits. Not cheap, but probably a lot better than the ancient Kirk plastic ones. 

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, Simon A.C. Martin said:

 

Is this available Tony, or has it gone already? I would be prepared to give it a home as I have the other half I have been building for myself here (which would give me an accurate 8 coach train).

Good evening Simon,

 

I think Jesse Sim from Australia has earmarked it (though we haven't discussed a price yet). It was a donation from a friend, with all proceeds for it going to CRUK. We have no idea who built it, but I think it came from a deceased modeller's collection. 

 

Jesse's coming over to stay with us in March.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Jesse Sim]

17 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Simon,

 

I think Jesse Sim from Australia has earmarked it (though we haven't discussed a price yet). It was a donation from a friend, with all proceeds for it going to CRUK. We have no idea who built it, but I think it came from a deceased modeller's collection. 

 

Jesse's coming over to stay with us in March.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I’ll take it Tony, if it’s okay holding on to it till March? 
 

Drop me an email and we can discuss some pricing. If I find it’s too expensive (which I doubt) then I’ll happily step down for Simon. 
 

Thank Tony.

 

[billbedford]

12 hours ago, t-b-g said:

To save everybody reading it all, the remaining sets were transferred to Sheffield in April 1966 and were used on excursions to the East Coast  until September 1966.

 

The quad sets were transferred ECS to Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds on summer Friday evenings for use on excursions from these places over the weekends. They were returned to London on Sunday evenings, or Monday if it was a bank holiday. I'm not sure when this practice started, but I haves seen a photo of a GNR set at Leeds. 

[Phil Brighton]

14 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

And, has anyone else made an eight-coach set? 

 

 

I have done the full  Kirk set in LNER days. One set of 4 was an unbuilt secondhand kit. The other had been built very badly and was totally covered in glue. Luckily none of the difficult replace parts were damaged beyond repair and i could replace other parts with plasticard. Used MJT trussing and made the foot boards from staples and brass on both sets.

 

 

 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

 

The quad sets were transferred ECS to Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds on summer Friday evenings for use on excursions from these places over the weekends. They were returned to London on Sunday evenings, or Monday if it was a bank holiday. I'm not sure when this practice started, but I haves seen a photo of a GNR set at Leeds. 

 

I wonder if the ECS workings to Leeds were along the ECML, or via another route? If they used the ECML then an ECS working through Little Bytham would be an interesting train to include in the sequence.

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, Phil Brighton said:

I have done the full  Kirk set in LNER days. One set of 4 was an unbuilt secondhand kit. The other had been built very badly and was totally covered in glue. Luckily none of the difficult replace parts were damaged beyond repair and i could replace other parts with plasticard. Used MJT trussing and made the foot boards from staples and brass on both sets.

 

 

 

Good morning Phil,

 

You've made a very fine job of your Quad-Arts.

 

Thanks for showing us. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

15 hours ago, MJI said:

I am building a MR 2P from a RTR body (Airfix Hornby) with MR tender, Comet chassis.

 

I will sell the motor tender to recover some cost. The loco chassis is broken.

 

I have worked out I can fit the biggest High Level motor and Highflyer gearbox in it.

 

Most body changes are done, only washout plugs to do before painting.

 

And yes my modelling is eclectic.

 

Will be modelled as near end of life in late 50s. It may not get a suitable layout. Or it will share a small one with some early green DMUs. I do know that it was used very near the route of the Snow Hill South Wales Intercity DMUs and the ex GWR railcars.

 

I must stop buying photo books of 1950 on railways.

Good morning Martin,

 

I assume your original Airfix 2P was tender drive?

 

About 12 years ago, I conducted a series of conversions where I replaced tender-drive units or split chassis in RTR locos with either Comet or SE Finecast frames, using Markits wheels and DJH or Comet/Mashima motor/gearboxes. The results appeared in either BRM itself or a BRM Annual. One of the conversion processes described involved 2Ps.........

 

 

This was how one started off; originally tender-drive (Airfix?). 

 

I felt the body mouldings and, particularly, the livery deserved better. 

 

 

These were the replacement Comet frames, and Comet/Mashima drive. 

 

 

I did two at the same time, including a BR version. 

 

Here's its Comet tender subframe. I chucked the tender-drive unit away, fitted a piece of Plastikard to cover the hole left in the tender soleplate, after packing the tender body with Liquid Lead; why use ballast in the tender?

 

 

So that I could rest the front of the tender on the rear of the loco, preventing 'nodding' and aiding adhesion.

 

 

This was on a third (Hornby) 2P, but this one had a loco-drive (which I retained). It's the property of Ian Wilson. 

 

 

Here's the BR one with the full replacement mechanism.

 

I filled the front end of the loco with lead (making it front-heavy), but this was balanced by a lead-lined, inside cab roof, lead in the rear of the frames and the weighted tender. The loco will just run by itself without toppling forward, but needs its tender for real stability, and it'll pull a heavy train. 

 

I'd weathered it but it still had its original (Scottish Region) number.

 

So...........

 

 

I altered its identity to an East Midlands-based example for service on the MR/M&GNR bit of Little Bytham.

 

 

This picture has appeared in the latest issue of the Railway Modeller.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MJI]

Mine was cheap off ebay as a non runner. Got a LRM MR tender.

 

The push along chassis was broken so jammed.

 

Filled in the lever in the boiler and cut a slot on other side.

 

Next job is to drill new washout plugs and fill old.

 

Will be 40540.

 

The tender link was very useful thanks

[richard i]

10 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

The quad sets were transferred ECS to Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds on summer Friday evenings for use on excursions from these places over the weekends. They were returned to London on Sunday evenings, or Monday if it was a bank holiday. I'm not sure when this practice started, but I haves seen a photo of a GNR set at Leeds. 

There is also a photo of a set in Nottingham Victoria in lner days, as we are mid house build I can not access my books to find out which. I assume it came up the gn and then across as the gn had a Nottingham connection.

richard 

[gr.king]

11 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

Isinglass list two varieties of GNR Quad-Art on their website if you fancy a crack at 3D-printed kits. Not cheap, but probably a lot better than the ancient Kirk plastic ones. 

You say "probably better" - do you actually have experience of both types in order to be able to say for certain?

Is the printed type sufficiently free of printing ridges for an ordinary painted finish to look perfect without a lot of preparation of the surfaces? Are the main dimensions, outlines, and both the positions and "weight" of the panel/beading lines correct? Are the prints totally free of any distortion and not in any way brittle? Would an Isinglass half-set and a Kirk half-set, both carefully built, be a genuinely satisfactory match?

[billbedford]

9 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I wonder if the ECS workings to Leeds were along the ECML, or via another route? If they used the ECML then an ECS working through Little Bytham would be an interesting train to include in the sequence.

I believe it was a pre-grouping practice, so set going to Nottingham and Leeds would have gone up the ECML. Sheffield was easily added to the list post Grouping. Leicester I'm not sure about. 

 

As for Little Bytham, the use of quad-arts for these summer excursions is something that didn't last much later than the mid 50s. Also most of these ECS workings were done during the night. 

[Willie Whizz]

32 minutes ago, gr.king said:

You say "probably better" - do you actually have experience of both types in order to be able to say for certain?

Is the printed type sufficiently free of printing ridges for an ordinary painted finish to look perfect without a lot of preparation of the surfaces? Are the main dimensions, outlines, and both the positions and "weight" of the panel/beading lines correct? Are the prints totally free of any distortion and not in any way brittle? Would an Isinglass half-set and a Kirk half-set, both carefully built, be a genuinely satisfactory match?

I have no idea - I do have an Isinglass carriage but not yet had time to start it. But it strikes me from what I’ve read about the Kirk Quad-Arts and my own experience of building other carriages in that defunct range that the amount of work required to get either option up to a satisfactory standard is going to be substantial either way.
 

My main point in posting was to highlight that there are TWO diagrams available from Isinglass rather than the one in the Kirk range, and it had been pointed out earlier that you cannot get a correct 8-coach train by simply building two Kirk sets.