Wright writes.....

[uax6]

9 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

"Of course, for 'accuracy' then LRM is the route to go down. But, it's more expensive.............."

 

But at least the more accurate LRM kit is available, which neither the K's or NuCast kits appear to be, or at least as far as I have found.

 

Dave and Nu-cast partners will, if he has got the moulds, spin anything out of the Nu-cast range for you, but the quality will be dependent on the state of the moulds. Brian at Branchlines <might> be able to supply chassis parts, again dependant on what he has got.

 

I've had a few Highland locos this way..

 

Andy G

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I am not sufficiently interested enough to look the details up and the situation was very complicated with many rebuilds and alterations but some of the J3/J4 types did have smaller boilers at some points in their lives. The smallest were just over 4ft. There were, from memory, 4 different boiler diameters between the two classes.

 

The 4ft 8ins diameter quoted for the boiler will almost certainly exclude the cladding, so you can add something on to that, very likely another 6ins or so, for the diameter over cladding. The N2 also had a 4ft 8ins diameter boiler but was just short of 5ft 2ins over the cladding.

 

So a smokebox at a scale 5ft 1ins is certainly undersized.

 

No doubt somebody has a drawing and can confirm just how wrong it is.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Tony,

 

It isn't wrong at all. It's me that's wrong! I mis-read the Railwood's scale rule

 

I've just re-checked, and the K's J3 smokebox comes out at 5' 6" - the same as shown on the Isinglass drawing. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

"Of course, for 'accuracy' then LRM is the route to go down. But, it's more expensive.............."

 

But at least the more accurate LRM kit is available, which neither the K's or NuCast kits appear to be, or at least as far as I have found.

I agree entirely Jol,

 

My statement wasn't a criticism of anything produced by LRM. 

 

It's true that both the older kits you cite are no longer in production (K's kits formed part of the Nu-Cast range under Autocom and, I believe, are now with Nu-Cast and Partners), but they do appear very often on the second-hand market; which was part of my brief for this project - find an old kit, pay not much for it, build it and get it going and you have a loco type not available RTR (probably never will be).

 

Another factor is that, even if one doesn't succeed (especially if using K's mechanics), then not much is lost and the practice involved in making it will be useful. Then there's the more-difficult aspect of building the LRM J3; not for me, or you, and certainly not because the kit is poor - quite the opposite; it's superb! But to those on a tight 'budget' and because they might be inexperienced, it could be a step too far. Forming/rolling/bending sheet brass accurately (smokebox, splashers, cab, much of the tender, etc) requires experience and, in my case, specialist tools. 

 

One question, if I may? Do you know if John sells parts from his kits separately. If so, when you speak to him next ask if I may have a J3 smokebox door, please. It'll really enhance the 'face' of the old K's duffer. Please let me know the cost, as well.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[t-b-g]

20 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Tony,

 

It isn't wrong at all. It's me that's wrong! I mis-read the Railwood's scale rule

 

I've just re-checked, and the K's J3 smokebox comes out at 5' 6" - the same as shown on the Isinglass drawing. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I did wonder about that Tony. I tried to visualise the model with an extra 2mm on the boiler and smokebox diameter and it would have looked huge! I am surprised that you don't have a Vernier Gauge, either digital or otherwise. Mine is probably my most used measuring device and I wouldn't want to be without one.

[Woodcock29]

Tony

John does supply parts separately. I got some w/m C12 smokebox doors and some cast brass boiler fittings and whistles etc from him. 

 

In respect to your J3 why not see if Graeme King can supply a J6 smokebox front - that's what I used on my J3.

 

I've also re-measured my Ks J3 boiler and it's not much under size at all. Graeme's J6 smokebox front fitted nicely.

 

Andrew

[Jol Wilkinson]

7 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I agree entirely Jol,

 

My statement wasn't a criticism of anything produced by LRM. 

 

It's true that both the older kits you cite are no longer in production (K's kits formed part of the Nu-Cast range under Autocom and, I believe, are now with Nu-Cast and Partners), but they do appear very often on the second-hand market; which was part of my brief for this project - find an old kit, pay not much for it, build it and get it going and you have a loco type not available RTR (probably never will be).

 

Another factor is that, even if one doesn't succeed (especially if using K's mechanics), then not much is lost and the practice involved in making it will be useful. Then there's the more-difficult aspect of building the LRM J3; not for me, or you, and certainly not because the kit is poor - quite the opposite; it's superb! But to those on a tight 'budget' and because they might be inexperienced, it could be a step too far. Forming/rolling/bending sheet brass accurately (smokebox, splashers, cab, much of the tender, etc) requires experience and, in my case, specialist tools. 

 

One question, if I may? Do you know if John sells parts from his kits separately. If so, when you speak to him next ask if I may have a J3 smokebox door, please. It'll really enhance the 'face' of the old K's duffer. Please let me know the cost, as well.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Tony,

 

I haven't built any of the LRM GNR/LNER kits, but have found with the LNWR ones (and those of other producers) curving the various items that need it isn't difficult. I have used underlay foam, metal bars (including 8mm or 10mm drill shanks on occasion) and some round nose pliers. I have a rarely used GW roller but the only other "specialist" tool is a pair of convex/concave jaw pliers, ideal for dealing with curved running plates. 

 

I remember Martin Finney demonstrating how to roll the sections of the taper boilers in his kits on the floor in front of his exhibition stand, using a piece of foam and a metal bar. The etched boilers in LRM kits are supplied ready rolled, parallel boilers being a bit more difficult.

 

AFAIK any of the kit fittings in the LRM range are available individually. John doesn't produce a list as there are so many. Some of the lost wax casting sprues are on one of the pegboards on the LRM exhibition stand but it would need a very large area to display them all.

 

An email to the usual address londonroadmodels@btinternet.com will soon produce what you need but I'll try to remember to mention it when we have our weekly telephone cal.

 

Jol

Edited October 26, 2022 by Jol Wilkinson
spelling

[4069]

37 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I am surprised that you don't have a Vernier Gauge, either digital or otherwise.

If your calipers are digital, they won't have a vernier scale 😀

[thegreenhowards]

15 hours ago, paul.anderson@poptel.org said:

Ooooh, yes please!

Ok. Here are the photos.

 

 

The body is held on with an 8 BA bolt and a self tapping screw - perhaps from the Bachmann Pannier?

 

It was a very tight fit and I had to file a fair bit of metal off the inside of the firebox and cut away some of the bottom of the boiler. Then I used black insulating tape to ensure no shorts. There was no space for a decoder, so I put that in the tender. I think the tender still uses the K’s wheels but I had to replace the securing method with a brass strip.

 

Not the neatest job, but it runs very smoothly and was dead cheap when I did it. £25 for the Pannier off eBay and sold the body on for £10. Of course the purists will complain that the wheel diameter is 1mm too small. I can live with that!

 

If you need any more photos, let me know.

 

Andy

[paul.anderson@poptel.org]

3 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Ok. Here are the photos.

 

 

The body is held on with an 8 BA bolt and a self tapping screw - perhaps from the Bachmann Pannier?

 

It was a very tight fit and I had to file a fair bit of metal off the inside of the firebox and cut away some of the bottom of the boiler. Then I used black insulating tape to ensure no shorts. There was no space for a decoder, so I put that in the tender. I think the tender still uses the K’s wheels but I had to replace the securing method with a brass strip.

 

Not the neatest job, but it runs very smoothly and was dead cheap when I did it. £25 for the Pannier off eBay and sold the body on for £10. Of course the purists will complain that the wheel diameter is 1mm too small. I can live with that!

 

If you need any more photos, let me know.

 

Andy

Thanks for this: I'll start filing at the weekend!

 

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I agree entirely Jol,

 

My statement wasn't a criticism of anything produced by LRM. 

 

It's true that both the older kits you cite are no longer in production (K's kits formed part of the Nu-Cast range under Autocom and, I believe, are now with Nu-Cast and Partners), but they do appear very often on the second-hand market; which was part of my brief for this project - find an old kit, pay not much for it, build it and get it going and you have a loco type not available RTR (probably never will be).

 

Another factor is that, even if one doesn't succeed (especially if using K's mechanics), then not much is lost and the practice involved in making it will be useful. Then there's the more-difficult aspect of building the LRM J3; not for me, or you, and certainly not because the kit is poor - quite the opposite; it's superb! But to those on a tight 'budget' and because they might be inexperienced, it could be a step too far. Forming/rolling/bending sheet brass accurately (smokebox, splashers, cab, much of the tender, etc) requires experience and, in my case, specialist tools. 

 

One question, if I may? Do you know if John sells parts from his kits separately. If so, when you speak to him next ask if I may have a J3 smokebox door, please. It'll really enhance the 'face' of the old K's duffer. Please let me know the cost, as well.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

If you are looking for inexpensive kits that might be suitable for beginners for an article have a look at the reissues of the Chivers kits.

 

Just got a SECR J Class 0-6-4T. There is also a LBSC D3 0-4-4T. I can't see either of those appearing RTR. I believe that others in the range might reappear.

 

Good quality castings with next to no flash. Everything is square and the boiler is perfectly round. Etched chassis which looks pretty simple to build.

 

You need to buy in a few parts but that does help keep the price down. Many of us would have those in stock anyway.

 

https://www.chiversfinelines.co.uk/shop/standard-gauge/00emp4/locomotive-kits

 

It's gone on to the pile, but it's quite near the top. Not a class I'm familiar with, I just liked the look of it. I need to do the research on them now.

 

 

 

Jason

[DenysW]

Read the fine-print carefully on these. Some require an Ibertren 'Cuckoo' chassis, which I think you can file under cuckoo's teeth for availability. I haven't checked the other chassis suggestions.

[Steamport Southport]

14 minutes ago, DenysW said:

Read the fine-print carefully on these. Some require an Ibertren 'Cuckoo' chassis, which I think you can file under cuckoo's teeth for availability. I haven't checked the other chassis suggestions.

 

I mean the 00 ones not the 009. They have a chassis included. I don't think the 009 ones went out of manufacture. 

 

They've just reissued the SECR J Class, LBSC D3 0-4-4T and I believe there were some others such as NER Q6 and Q7 0-8-0s in the range.

 

The SR ones are something to go with all those Terriers, Hs and Ps that are running about. 

 

 

Jason

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

Tony

John does supply parts separately. I got some w/m C12 smokebox doors and some cast brass boiler fittings and whistles etc from him. 

 

In respect to your J3 why not see if Graeme King can supply a J6 smokebox front - that's what I used on my J3.

 

I've also re-measured my Ks J3 boiler and it's not much under size at all. Graeme's J6 smokebox front fitted nicely.

 

Andrew

Thanks Andrew,

 

John is sending me a J3 smokebox door from his J3 kit.

 

Thanks also to Jol Wilkinson for sorting it for me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[t-b-g]

6 hours ago, 4069 said:

If your calipers are digital, they won't have a vernier scale 😀

 

Fair enough but mine is a digital Vernier. I work it with my fingers, so that makes it digital.

[gr.king]

Hmmm, this is all making me wonder whether, at a suitable time, I ought to consider altering the smokebox door, the front valve chest cover, the chimney, the dome and the safety valves on my K's J3.

On the other hand, just as it stands it is a useable loco, not a complete eyesore, and a testament to one of my earliest successful loco kit building attempts, the result of simply cleaning up the parts, following the basic assembly instructions, and briefly checking the odd photograph as a guide. No such thing as a proper scale drawing was in my possession at the time, and even if I made the above alterations the boiler would still be of doubtful diameter and sitting a little low, all the handrail knobs rather too fat, and a host of other details not quite as refined as they could be. Since I certainly don't want to take the whole body back down to kit form then reassemble it with corrections it isn't easy to decide whether to interfere with the loco at all.

[stewartingram]

Something I've always wondered about quouting boiler diameters, is what the drawing is trying to represent. From the engineering point of view, a (say) 5'3" diameter boiler would be just that - the 'raw' boiler. But in real life, the loco when constructed, would have cladding (and insulation) added, thus increasing the diameter.

I often wondered, taking the old Triang B12 as an example, the loco looked 'under-nourished', as if the diameter of the raw boiler had been used to make the finished Hornby product?

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

John is sending me a J3 smokebox door from his J3 kit.

 

Thanks also to Jol Wilkinson for sorting it for me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

If you are going down the route of improving the appearance, it may be worth getting a chimney and a dome from John as well. Unless things have improved over the years, the Ks versions of both were not very good and in my view, that really does spoil the look of a loco.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

If you are going down the route of improving the appearance, it may be worth getting a chimney and a dome from John as well. Unless things have improved over the years, the Ks versions of both were not very good and in my view, that really does spoil the look of a loco.

Thanks Tony,

 

You've read my mind! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

13 hours ago, gr.king said:

Hmmm, this is all making me wonder whether, at a suitable time, I ought to consider altering the smokebox door, the front valve chest cover, the chimney, the dome and the safety valves on my K's J3.

On the other hand, just as it stands it is a useable loco, not a complete eyesore, and a testament to one of my earliest successful loco kit building attempts, the result of simply cleaning up the parts, following the basic assembly instructions, and briefly checking the odd photograph as a guide. No such thing as a proper scale drawing was in my possession at the time, and even if I made the above alterations the boiler would still be of doubtful diameter and sitting a little low, all the handrail knobs rather too fat, and a host of other details not quite as refined as they could be. Since I certainly don't want to take the whole body back down to kit form then reassemble it with corrections it isn't easy to decide whether to interfere with the loco at all.

Good evening Graeme,

 

Were it mine...............

 

 

 

I'd leave it as it is (with just one caveat - ugh, those ghastly couplings!). 

 

It represents a time on your model-making journey, and I think it's highly-creditable. 

 

I have several locos still which I built nearly half a century ago, some with such niceties as lamp brackets and brakes conspicuous by their absence. But, what might I do? Strip them, rebuild them, and then what? They'd still be products of their time, and, in my view, should remain so.

 

If one is not careful the 'three loco scenario' might appear. By that I mean, one only ever considers owning three locos; the one you've just finished, the next one you're building and the one you're contemplating building after that, each one dropping off at the front of the list as the next one shows up all its errors and faults.

 

Such a scenario comes with experience and as skills develop, but only up to a point. That point being when experience can no longer compensate for a drop-off in skills (I speak from experience here). I think I built my 'best' loco over 20 years ago. By that I mean I reached my 'plateau' (I don't think I've ever 'peaked'). Thus it's then a levelling off until the 'dip slope' approaches (which I've now reached). Let's hope it's not the 'scarp slope'!

 

Take heart, I know many 'modellers' who'd give a lot to be able to build such a loco as your K's J3!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[billbedford]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Were it mine...............

I'd leave it as it is (with just one caveat - ugh, those ghastly couplings!). 

 

 

It looks like a J4 to me...

 

 

 

 

 

...I'll get m' coat...

[LNER4479]

Morning Tony, et al

 

Talking of budget modelling, may I be permitted to post these?

 

From these ...

 

... to this.

 

Full step-by-step story posted just now in the Shap thread but basically, I've 'done a Clive'. A cut n shut exercise using various donor vehicles that were either genuinely surplus or acquired cheaply and I chose to recycle to create something a bit different (LMS PdII Dia. 1720 BCK in original condition). Plan is to have it fully finished in time for the Manchester show.

[gr.king]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

 

It looks like a J4 to me...

At least as much as looks like a J3, and therein lies the dilemma.

[jwealleans]

3 hours ago, billbedford said:

It looks like a J4 to me...

 

No need for the coat - I intend to build the one I have as a J4 and that's suitable encouragement.

Edited October 27, 2022 by jwealleans

[gr.king]

13 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Graeme,

 

Were it mine...............

Thanks Tony, you'll be glad to know that massive front coupling has already been removed for a year or more, and not before time.

 

All this debate over the K's J3 has finally distracted me from planned activity to the extent of using my digital calliper to re-check various boiler dimensions for several of my models. These should all represent Doncaster designs with the same nominal 4' 8" diameter boiler (over the actual pressure vessel) plus presumably the same amount of lagging and clothing plates. It might be reasonable to assume similarity of smokebox diameters too.

 

My resin J6 and J2 models, from home made masters made to match Isinglass drawings (and conclusions drawn from published dimensions) measure about 20.3mm over the clothed barrel, ~22mm smokebox dia.

My Hornby, ex-Dapol, ex-Mainline N2 has 20.5mm colthed barrel dia, 22.1mm smokebox.

A (Premier Kits?) D2 I have, which I didn't build, 20.6 clothed barrel dia, 22 to 20.2 slightly oval smokebox.

 

Which brings me to my K's J3, which my modern measuring device now tells me is anywhere between 19.5 and 20.5 over the clothed boiler, which is oval and not parallel. The smokebox is about 21.7 horizontal diameter, possibly less than 21 vertically.

Two decades or so ago, when I built the poor thing, I evidently either did not notice the ovality of the boiler until it was too late to correct, or I did not have / apply the necessary time, skill and force to sort it out without damage. Either way, the boiler clothing would appear to average 20mm diameter, which is not so seriously under-size as I had once thought. The biggest error therefore lies in the pitch of the boiler, maybe 1mm or more too low, which you have made efforts to correct in your latest budget build.

 

On the matter of the tender, although the K's kit represents the final batch of locos that were built and later reboilered to become J3, the sandbox positions (plus Ivatt cab and shallow running plate angle iron) confirming this, it might be the case that one or more of these locos even in final large-boiler form ran for a period paired with one of Stirling's old wood framed tenders with concealed springs. If a suitable photo can be found to confirm such a pairing, then for anybody who is bothered by the massive Class B tender in the kit, who doesn't want to tackle an LRM etched tender, and who has access to any old Kitmaster remnants, the old plastic kit for the tender of the Stirling single can be hacked around and fitted with coal rails to produce a believable alternative tender...

[Woodcock29]

I have just run my digital callipers (bought maybe 10 years ago and now my most used measuring device!) over my 'hybrid' J3. The boiler is 20.6mm in diameter across the centre line. Smokebox is 21.7mm horizontally and about 22mm vertically - a bit difficult to measure. Boiler pitch is about 0.5mm too low. Dome and chimney are the correct heights individually. Total height over chimney is 1mm too low. Cab width about 1mm too wide. Footplate correct 32mm at front but only 31mm at the rear. Overall not a bad result I thought.

 

Thinking further about the source of my chimney - I think I stole it from an unbuilt Connisseur J50 I was given. The dome just came from my spares.

 

Andrew