Wright writes.....

[LNER4479]

Thanks Tony,

 

The LMR will take good care of 46245 till York then (are you planning to attend? You can take her back to ER metals after that, if so).

 

I gave 6251 a couple of laps with the train shown but didn't otherwise extensively test. She's booked for an early 'Light Casual', following which she will emerge renumbered / named as 46233 'Duchess of Sutherland' - but still in the same livery and with LMS still on the tender. Correct for 1948 until at least 1950, according to records. I've found a Treacy picture of her on Shap in 1948 in just such condition. A couple of years too early for my target time span but - hey - a lovely loco and will be something a bit different.

 

46257 is more of a 'Heavy General' I think ... a little further down the queue (didn't bring that one to Manchester).

 

Pity you couldn;t make it - you missed an excellent show, although numbers were a bit down yesterday.

Edited December 12, 2022 by LNER4479

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, gr.king said:

The whole point of major exhibitions is much reduced if there are no suppliers of a truly comprehensive range of materials, tools and parts for serious working-model builders. Those who organise large shows on a commercial basis, and who would like to see them continue, might want to consider measures to ensure that suitable suppliers survive and attend shows, if necessary by offering preferential stand-rent terms, investment, or other practical / cost assistance to the relevant firms to bolster them.

Good morning Graeme,

 

The idea of a 'scale village' where 'specialist traders' could attend at preferential rents has been tried before (at Doncaster, Peterborough and Ally Pally), but it can hit difficulties. What happens when a 'scale' trader is also selling stuff usually associated with 'box-shifters' - current RTR, for instance, as well as his/her range of 'unique' products?

 

Apart from a few shows (I'm speaking prior to Covid here, and since); at the likes of York or Aylesbury, and the scale/gauge events, the majority of exhibitions seemed to have few or no 'specialist' traders. For instance, at the likes of Wigan one could once buy everything needed to build a loco, carriage or wagon. Plus all the raw materials and sundries for just about everything to be built. Not in October last, though the layouts were superb. The Nottingham (Bulwell) show used to be one of the biggest/best in the exhibition calendar, but now (for a whole variety of reasons) is just a little church hall event (though rather jolly, nonetheless). The wonderful, year-beginning Chiltern MRA exhibition at Stevenage (prior to that, St. Albans) seems to have disappeared altogether. That always had lots of 'scale' trade.

 

Some specialist traders I speak to say it's just not worth attending shows; they run as fast as they can at them, just to stand still! Much more business is now conducted online, where there are no stand rents, no travelling expenses and no accommodation to find.

 

Things are changing, at an even faster pace. I'm lucky, of course, in my 'I'm All Right, Jack' situation (that brilliant film was on yesterday) - at least a score of loco kits to build in stock, double figures of carriages, plus all the necessary bits and pieces to complete them, as well as yards of solder and bottles of flux. But, as I say, I'm lucky. Not so much luck around for the would-be beginner who's actually thinking of making things. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

3 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks Tony,

 

The LMR will take good care of 46245 till York then (are you planning to attend? You can take her back to ER metals after that, if so).

 

I gave 6251 a couple of laps with the train shown but didn't otherwise extensively test. She's booked for an early 'Light Casual', following which she will emerge renumbered / named as 46233 'Duchess of Sutherland' - but still in the same livery and with LMS still on the tender. Correct for 1948 until at least 1950, according to records. I've found a Treacy picture of her on Shap in 1948 in just such condition. A couple of years too early for my target time span but - hey - a lovely loco and will be something a bit different.

 

46257 is more of a 'Heavy General' I think ... a little further down the queue (didn't bring that one to Manchester).

 

Pity you couldn;t make it - you missed an excellent show, although numbers were a bit down yesterday.

Oh yes, I'll be at York, Graham,

 

I wouldn't miss that, even if the roof blew off! Well, that might just take precedence. 

 

I know 46245 is in safe hands. And, I'm glad that other 'Semi' worked well. She was a bit of a 'dud' when I collected her from Brian's wife, but a bit of TLC and she was away - the loco, not Brian's missus!).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

14 hours ago, gr.king said:

The whole point of major exhibitions is much reduced if there are no suppliers of a truly comprehensive range of materials, tools and parts for serious working-model builders. Those who organise large shows on a commercial basis, and who would like to see them continue, might want to consider measures to ensure that suitable suppliers survive and attend shows, if necessary by offering preferential stand-rent terms, investment, or other practical / cost assistance to the relevant firms to bolster them.

 

The commercial show organisers aren't really interested in the DIY sector of the hobby. They will get more stand revenue form the box shifters/discount warehouses, with whom they may have other connections to nurture (e.g magazine advertising). Take Warners for example. Are they likely to subsidise a sector of the trade that is not likely to advertise in BRM? It wouldn't be good business practise.

 

The other issue is that the RTR collector/buyer, who are probably the great majority of the visitors to the large shows, aren't interested in the specialist suppliers products.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Indeed, I think it quite likely this is the result of the general economic situation with esclating rents, heating costs and the like rather than a specific result of a decrease in demand for modelling materials. I understand PEC had a healthy order book when they shut up shop. So not down to a lack of people wanting to buy etched kits and the like.

 

Chris

 

PEC had a very healthy order book with long delivery lead times. That was partly due to the fact that they had been running the business down for some time. Worn out equipment wasn't repaired /replaced, etc. They had also not revised their prices for some time to reflect increasing wage, energy or material costs. THe small businesses who have had to transfer their business elsewhere are now finding the cost of etches has increased considerably.

 

They also had an odd business practise of adding any existing order to a new order but putting it to the back of the queue. I know of one kit producer ( a regular customer for decades), who had three orders in with PEC but received nothing in the three months before they closed.

[Chris Higgs]

27 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

The small businesses who have had to transfer their business elsewhere are now finding the cost of etches has increased considerably.

 

I am one of them. At least there were a choice of alternatives to turn to, let's hope it stays that way. Yes, the etched sheets cost more, although in hindsight I would say that they are now priced realistically. But the competitors are better priced for the initial photo tools, so if you only want a few sheets run of something new it works out not so bad.  

 

Chris

Edited December 12, 2022 by Chris Higgs

[t-b-g]

The news about Eileen's Emporium is very sad.

 

I have no idea what has gone wrong with the business but I have, from time to time, wondered just what stock levels such traders must hold to be able to supply so many different products on demand and how much must they buy that sits there for years unsold.

 

The hobby does seem to be changing and the more traditional skills seem to be declining in favour of more modern methods.

 

If you use RTR equipment or even build kits, the amount of metal sheet/tube/wire/section you need to buy is not great when it come to locos but it does come in handy for many other things.

 

I do sometimes wonder just how much scratchbuilding the old fashioned way still goes on. I know a few who do and some who scratchbuild wagons from plastic sheet but I see much more 3D printed work nowadays.

 

The skills for the future seem to be more CAD design and 3D printing than turning, milling and cutting metal by hand and I am not sure how more traditional traders fit in to that environment.

 

I admit to being very much in the "old school" camp and I have 3 scratchbuilt locos on the go at the moment and have fairly recently completed three more that needed a substantial number of scratchbuilt components but I wonder how many others there are who still model this way.

 

I find it hugely satisfying, much more so than building kits or using RTR items.

 

This is the latest, a tender for a Southern Railway U Class, all cut from nickel silver sheet.

[Chris Higgs]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Some specialist traders I speak to say it's just not worth attending shows; they run as fast as they can at them, just to stand still! Much more business is now conducted online, where there are no stand rents, no travelling expenses and no accommodation to find.

 

 

The 'box shifters' have the same question. One of my acquaintance, who I worked for many decades ago when a student, commented recently to me on how much stock he has to sell at a show just to pay the stand rental. 

 

Not that I like that term (box shifters). My friend is also highly knowledgeable on all things railways, and stocks a pretty good range of books, paints, kits, tools and the like.

 

Chris

[john new]

I think I posted this somewhere up thread but perhaps what is needed is an Amazon like conglomerate “shop window” for the small suppliers. Two reasons (1) for customers to make it easier to find the right supplier with bits in stock and (2) for traders to be putting their wares in a single shop window. A background to this thought is I often read of products/retailers I have never heard of previously that would be useful and the difficulties any small trader or society has with getting their products seen. Advertising across the board (and I include show stands in this catch all  term) costs more than the resulting income, yet without adverts your products are not known to exist.

 

Who would run it and how would its’ admin be funded is the ? I have the idea but am 70 so not wanting to start what would be a third career - lobbed into the pond to see if the ripples reach someone willing to investigate it further.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by john new
Punctuation corrected

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, john new said:

I think I posted this somewhere up thread but perhaps what is needed is an Amazon like conglomerate “shop window” for the small suppliers. Two reasons (1) for customers to make it easier to find the right supplier with bits in stock and (2) for traders to be putting their wares in a single shop window. A background to this thought is I often read of products/retailers I have never heard of previously that would be useful and the difficulties any small trader or society has with getting their products seen. Advertising across the board (and I include show stands in this catch all  term) costs more than the resulting income, yet without adverts your products are not known to exist.

Who would run it and how would its’ admin be funded is the ? I have the idea but am 70 so not wanting to start what would be a third career - lobbed into the pond to see if the ripples reaches someone willing to investigate it further.

 

Isn't that eBay though?

 

Bought loads of bits from eBay from our Small Suppliers. Not even through third parties but the people themselves.

 

Even easier since you no longer have to use PayPal.

 

 

Jason

[john new]

8 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Isn't that eBay though?

 

Bought loads of bits from eBay from our Small Suppliers. Not even through third parties but the people themselves.

 

Even easier since you no longer have to use PayPal.

 

 

Jason

Ebay helps yes, but isn't an an overall panacea. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by john new

[micklner]

17 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Isn't that eBay though?

 

Bought loads of bits from eBay from our Small Suppliers. Not even through third parties but the people themselves.

 

Even easier since you no longer have to use PayPal.

 

 

Jason

You dont have to use Paypal , everybodies choice. I recomend it, if the item fails to turn up etc. Much quicker at such solving problems than normal credit cards. IMHO.

[Steamport Southport]

Just now, micklner said:

You dont have to use Paypal , everybodies choice. I recomend it, if the item fails to turn up etc. Much quicker at such solving problems than normal credit cards. IMHO.

 

You did at one point though. You couldn't have an eBay account without a PayPal account linked to it.

 

At least I can phone my bank up. I had a dispute with PayPal that is still unresolved as they refuse to talk to individuals. I won't use them again.

 

 

Jason

[Tony Teague]

36 minutes ago, john new said:

Who would run it and how would its’ admin be funded is the ? I have the idea but am 70 so not wanting to start what would be a third career - lobbed into the pond to see if the ripples reach someone willing to investigate it further.

 

 

Something for RMWeb to consider?

[Bernard Lamb]

28 minutes ago, john new said:

Ebay helps yes, but isn't an an overall panacea. 

That sounds like a suitable name for a locomotive.😀

Bernard

[sjp23480]

1 hour ago, john new said:

I think I posted this somewhere up thread but perhaps what is needed is an Amazon like conglomerate “shop window” for the small suppliers. Two reasons (1) for customers to make it easier to find the right supplier with bits in stock and (2) for traders to be putting their wares in a single shop window. A background to this thought is I often read of products/retailers I have never heard of previously that would be useful and the difficulties any small trader or society has with getting their products seen. Advertising across the board (and I include show stands in this catch all  term) costs more than the resulting income, yet without adverts your products are not known to exist.

 

Who would run it and how would its’ admin be funded is the ? I have the idea but am 70 so not wanting to start what would be a third career - lobbed into the pond to see if the ripples reach someone willing to investigate it further.

 

I wonder if the UKModelshops.co.uk could do this?

 

[PupCam]

 

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The idea of a 'scale village' where 'specialist traders' could attend at preferential rents has been tried before (at Doncaster, Peterborough and Ally Pally), but it can hit difficulties. What happens when a 'scale' trader is also selling stuff usually associated with 'box-shifters' - current RTR, for instance, as well as his/her range of 'unique' products?

 

17 hours ago, gr.king said:

The whole point of major exhibitions is much reduced if there are no suppliers of a truly comprehensive range of materials, tools and parts for serious working-model builders. Those who organise large shows on a commercial basis, and who would like to see them continue, might want to consider measures to ensure that suitable suppliers survive and attend shows, if necessary by offering preferential stand-rent terms, investment, or other practical / cost assistance to the relevant firms to bolster them.

 

IMVHO it's not really equitable to consider preferential rates for "traders" however well intentioned in terms of supporting specific groups or guiding the general direction of what's on offer and for reasons such as Tony has indicated.  It would be a potential minefield.     Contractual Non Disclosure Agreements  would (have to)  become rife if all out war and resentment within the model railway community were to be avoided!

 

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The wonderful, year-beginning Chiltern MRA exhibition at Stevenage (prior to that, St. Albans) seems to have disappeared altogether. That always had lots of 'scale' trade.

 

On behalf of the CMRA,  thank you Tony for such a kind comment.  It almost became an institution didn't it!

 

I do think that a clear distinction needs to be made between large and commercial major shows which is often over-looked.    As someone who was involved to varying degrees with the CMRA show since its inception in 1987 until its hibernation after 2020  (let's not say demise!🤞), I think it is safe to say that particularly when at Stevenage, it was a large show.   But it certainly wasn't ever a "commercial" show (i.e. one that supports a business objective of adding positively to the company's balance sheet) as its raison d'etre.     It's original purpose was twofold; to try and stimulate the development of a model railway club in St Albans (which sadly never happened) and also to become a show case for the hobby to the public.   In achieving that aim the association endeavoured to give those providing the exhibits an enjoyable and comfortable time and not leave them out of pocket.     It was organised by a very capable team, in a professional manner  but none of the team (again like most non-commercial shows) were professional exhibition organisers.    Of course, the show could not continually make a loss (and hence bankrupt the CMRA) but it essentially only ever had to break-even.   Even so the costs involved putting it on were very significant - you don't hire a public leisure centre and a car park for an extended weekend and put over 100 people up in a hotel in a large town for a few hundred quid!    Now, if the total receipts were going to provide a profit and pay the venue staff's wages as well they've got to be inflated by what?  10%, 20%, 50%, 100% - who knows!

 

There are two fundamental revenue streams for most shows ;   the stand fees and the admission receipts ..........  So as an exhibition visitor; you decide the balance of just how much those stand fees are subsidised for any "chosen ones".

 

We, and I suspect every other show, were perpetually advised by the visitors (particularly at quirky St Albans) that there weren't enough traders selling X, Y or Z  but it was far too cramped and by the way we'd love to see bigger layouts and why don't you include more full-size societies  etc etc.    Well, as our American friends would say "Go figure!"     Hall planning was done, particularly at St Albans to an accuracy of a couple of inches and each year we had to check that the Arena had not, for example, added another broom cupboard under the balcony in the intervening 12 months.    And yes, on more than one occasion it appeared that builders of exquisite model railways were completely incapable of accurately measuring the size of their exhibit causing some on-the-day shenanigans which a couple of RMwebbers had to deal with.   Still, no names no pact drill.

 

Having said all that, the news about Eileen's Emporium (and all the other lost traders) is very sad indeed.       I think we first had John Flack at St Albans in 1989 and he (or it) morphed into and first appeared as Eileen's in 1995 and they have supported the CMRA show under various owners ever since.   A sad loss of a particularly useful supplier.

 

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Some specialist traders I speak to say it's just not worth attending shows; they run as fast as they can at them, just to stand still! Much more business is now conducted online, where there are no stand rents, no travelling expenses and no accommodation to find.

 

Indeed that appears to be true as certainly some of our "old favourites" dropped out along the way citing such a reason, which is completely understandable.   I really hate to say it but perhaps the combination of the trading circumstances, the total costs associated  with putting on a show, the relentless rise in all costs are becoming unreconcilable and thus such traditional events will gradually fall by the wayside?  I relly do hope that is not the case.

 

As to the future of the CMRA exhibition itself; I have to admit to being rather out of touch with the association now due to various factors,  perhaps @bbishop or @adrianmc have got the fingers closer to the CMRA's pulse and can provide a hint?

 

Alan

 

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, PupCam said:

Having said all that, the news about Eileen's Emporium (and all the other lost traders) is very sad indeed.       I think we first had John Flack at St Albans in 1989 and he (or it) morphed into and first appeared as Eileen's in 1995 and they have supported the CMRA show under various owners ever since.   A sad loss of a particularly useful supplier.

Alan

 

John Flack stopped attending exhibitions in the mid-1990s and later moved from Bromley down to Somerset. However he maintained a mail order service for a decade or so.  Meanwhile Eileen and Jim expanded their exhibition attendances.  When John retired, he sold his stock to Roger Sawyer.  Bill

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

The 'box shifters' have the same question. One of my acquaintance, who I worked for many decades ago when a student, commented recently to me on how much stock he has to sell at a show just to pay the stand rental. 

 

Not that I like that term (box shifters). My friend is also highly knowledgeable on all things railways, and stocks a pretty good range of books, paints, kits, tools and the like.

 

Chris

Good evening Chris,

 

I'm not sure I like the term 'box-shifter', either (that's why I put it into inverted commas). It's just that it's now common parlance. 

 

However, I do find it rather boring returning to shows now just to find the majority of traders selling stuff I have little or no interest in - just piles of blue boxes, blue and red boxes, red boxes, black boxes, etc, etc, all containing RTR locos, rolling stock or ready-to-plant items. Most have to compete with each other for the lowest prices, unless their RTR items are very, very niche.

 

I see more and more RTR stuff on layouts now as well; at exhibitions, on the internet and in the press. Wonderful though it might be (and it is), it really doesn't interest me that much. I glance at an RTR stand at a show, turn through 180 degrees and there's the same thing, but out of its box on a layout. I'd much sooner see something that's been hand-made, even though it might be inferior. 

 

If your friend stocks other stuff, I might be interested, but does he sell metal kits, motors, gears, wheels, chimneys, domes, whistles, safety valves, castings, metal stock - the list goes on? Time was when I could visit (almost) any show and find stands selling all these sorts of things. Not now.

 

It's a 'brave new world' indeed. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[t-b-g]

I had never realised that there was any connection between John Flack and Eileen's Emporium. I had always thought that the latter business was built up from scratch by Jim and Eileen. Ah well, every day is a school day!

 

 

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I had never realised that there was any connection between John Flack and Eileen's Emporium. I had always thought that the latter business was built up from scratch by Jim and Eileen. Ah well, every day is a school day!

 

Tony,

Tont,

I think Bill Bishop's post sums it up. There wasn't a direct link between John Flack and EE, but Roger Sawyer, who took over from Jim and Eileen, bought up John Flack's stock when he retired.

 

Jol

3 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

 

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Tont,

I think Bill Bishop's post sums it up. There wasn't a direct link between John Flack and EE, but Roger Sawyer, who took over from Jim and Eileen, bought up John Flack's stock when he retired.

 

Jol

 

 

Thanks. I think I was confused by Pupcam's post above which suggested that John Flack's business "morphed" into Eileen's.

 

It suggested to me that Eileen's had started out as John Flack.

[Barry Ten]

Speaking of the specialist trade, I placed a telephone order with Markits early last week. The order was queried by a return phone call a few hours later (I'd forgotten to say whether I wanted axles or not) and I've just returned home from the Manchester show to find the wheels awaiting me. Good service, I'd say.

[PupCam]

8 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Thanks. I think I was confused by Pupcam's post above which suggested that John Flack's business "morphed" into Eileen's.

 

It suggested to me that Eileen's had started out as John Flack.

 

Sorry, I confused the situation slightly, I misremembered the exact circumstances!   

[Tony Wright]

The usual monthly quartet got together (under a non-leaking roof) to operate LB today. Except, not much operating took place. Why? Some interesting things appeared in front of my camera.............

 

 

I collected the ex-Brian Lee K's Beyer-Garratt from Geoff Haynes. He's altered it to BR condition and further weathered it. What a striking model. 

 

Geoff had weathered some other things as well, including.............

 

 

This DJH A2/2 which I'd built for Geoff West four years ago, which Geoff H had painted. Though beautifully-painted, it really was too clean for a New England Pacific, so it's much more-realistic now. 

 

 

And this latest Hornby 9F (Geoff West's property). Having said in a previous post, RTR doesn't really interest me, this is a striking model; especially after such 'heroic' weathering. Why do couplings always get out of position? 

 

 

'Goliath and David'? Geoff Haynes has also painted/weathered the K's J3 I've recently built. (Sorry about the diverging verticals caused by my use of a wide-angle lens). 

 

 

The finish was based on the last picture in the relevant Yeadon's Register, where the loco's identity and ownership are almost invisible. 

 

Still, dirty or not, she's happily running now on the MR/M&GNR bit of LB............

 

 

Do you remember when all model railway photographs were taken from a helicopter?

 

 

Until a few 'pioneers' got their cameras lower? 

 

 

It's equally happy on a freight, wheezing out its days into oblivion. 

 

Yes, I know it's not entirely accurate, but as a 'layout loco', heading westwards towards Saxby and beyond, it 'fits in' in my opinion.  

 

Finally, something with no input from Geoff Haynes.........

 

 

Readers might recall last month Geoff West bringing an ex-Brian Lee DJH Austerity along he'd bought from me. Rather a 'basket case', we got it going and now Geoff has tidied it up and fully weathered it to make a most-natural loco. A splendid job! 

 

Another reason why trains were not run was because of Westy bringing along a Hatton's 14XX 0-4-2T. Along with a layout, he'd bought this from Tom Foster and it was DCC-fitted. 'Do you think you can take the chip out of this, please?'. What a dope I was - I said 'Yes'. 

 

It took ages to get the body off (it was firmly stuck to the chassis with paint. Not only that, pipes seemed to be attached to both). Attempts at wiggling things apart were met with ominous cracking sounds. I hadn't realised that access to the decoder was via the smokebox, but everything was such a tight fit. Inside was just a serpent's nest of wires, many of which I had no idea what their function was. I finally got the decoder out (some of the wires coming loose in the process), then identified which two wires (yes, just two) went from the pick-ups to the motor, attached those, then chucked the rest of the wiring away! Oh, I haven't mentioned that the boiler had to come off as a separate piece as well! All of this 'nonsense' on 'the altar' of DCC. Why should it be made so difficult now with RTR locos just to get inside them? Remember a screw down the chimney? 

 

The end result - a much simpler and sweet-running little tank. Afterwards, I asked Geoff if he liked sex and travel! 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Barry Ten]

8 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

 

Another reason why trains were not run was because of Westy bringing along a Hatton's 14XX 0-4-4T. Along with a layout, he'd bought this from Tom Foster and it was DCC-fitted. 'Do you think you can take the chip out of this, please?'. What a dope I was - I said 'Yes'. 

 

It took ages to get the body off (it was firmly stuck to the chassis with paint. Not only that, pipes seemed to be attached to both). Attempts at wiggling things apart were met with ominous cracking sounds. I hadn't realised that access to the decoder was via the smokebox, but everything was such a tight fit. Inside was just a serpent's nest of wires, many of which I had no idea what their function was. I finally got the decoder out (some of the wires coming loose in the process), then identified which two wires (yes, just two) went from the pick-ups to the motor, attached those, then chucked the rest of the wiring away! Oh, I haven't mentioned that the boiler had to come off as a separate piece as well! All of this 'nonsense' on 'the alter' of DCC. Why should it be made so difficult now with RTR locos just to get inside them? Remember a screw down the chimney? 

 

The end result - a much simpler and sweet-running little tank. Afterwards, I asked Geoff if he liked sex and travel! 

 

I've not owned one myself, but the Hattons 14XX seemed to be a paragon of bad design when it came out. It's a shame as the body looked good.