Wright writes.....

[davidw]

40 minutes ago, sandra said:

I can understand that someone may not like to do work on a new model which may have cost £200 but why not buy a cheap, possibly secondhand, model and experiment upgrading that.

 

The majority of the locomotives on Retford are kit built or use RTR bodies on a Comet chassis. However there a number of RTR locomotives of which this is one.This is a Railroad “Tornado” converted to EM gauge using the original mechanics and drivers. It’s had extra weight added and new smoke deflectors fitted and the tender has been modified to more closely resemble an A1 tender. Real coal has been added to the tender and it has been lightly weathered. The loco itself cost £50 and the only extra costs were Gibson bogie wheels and tender wheels and a set of nameplates from Fox. The locomotive can pull 12 coaches round Retford and is regularly diagrammed for an up express from Leeds. 
 

If modellers aren’t confident of modifying a new locomotive the I would suggest that something like this may be the place to start.

Any chance of explaining what mods you made to the tender. I always felt that the Hornby Tornado  captured the A1 rather well

[Michael Edge]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Being a country member I've never seen it myself so I can't describe it. This is the layout in question:

 

We have two token systems on Chapel en le Frith, one for the two Fell locos (one original black with all rods on and the other one in green) and one for the two Midland Pullman sets. Although all are correctly prototypical for the layout we don't want them appearing round the front together - self evidently for the two incarnations of the Fell but Chapel is a very unlikely place for the two Pullman sets to pass. Innocentman on here might like to enlighten us on how the circuitry works but essentially you press a button on the panel a which gives your end a green light, the other end panel shows red.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

We have two token systems on Chapel en le Frith, one for the two Fell locos (one original black with all rods on and the other one in green) and one for the two Midland Pullman sets. Although all are correctly prototypical for the layout we don't want them appearing round the front together - self evidently for the two incarnations of the Fell but Chapel is a very unlikely place for the two Pullman sets to pass. Innocentman on here might like to enlighten us on how the circuitry works but essentially you press a button on the panel a which gives your end a green light, the other end panel shows red.

 

The issue of the Pullmans passing is surely just a question of working to the timetable?

 

But i still understand this token system that has been mentioned - unless it's the case that each Pullman has a dedicated fiddle yard line? I can see how that would work.

[Chamby]

6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

My 'prejudice' against RTR isn't about its current general accuracy (which is incredible). It's about its 'exploitation' where nothing has been done to it by way of detailing/alteration of identity/etched 'plates/weathering/etc/etc. Yet, untouched items appear on layouts at shows, online and in the press. At one show, two (brand new) identical locomotives operated on a layout for the duration, their respective owners having bought them on the Saturday morning. The 'skill' they showed was in earning enough money to buy them (they certainly didn't steal them!), opening the boxes and putting them on the track. 

 

Why not lop of the ghastly front tension-lock coupling? Why not display lamps? Why not shorten the loco-to tender connection (I'm not talking about train set curves here? Why not add extra detail? Why not change numbers/names? Why not weather? And so on, and so on. Could it be that a large majority in the hobby are incapable of such 'radical' actions, either living with things as they come or commissioning others to do it for them? I'm not denying them those choices - that is their right and I have no right to deny them. It's just that don't expect me to show any great interest when I see such things at shows, in the press or online..............

 

 

Confidence, and knowledge has a lot to do with it, I think - and that takes time and effort.  People won't change tension-lock couplings if they don't yet know any better.  They won't add details or modify things if they think they'll make a bodge of it, which would probably be wrong .  And many won't even be aware of lamping and the significance of different lamp positions.  There are a lot of blissfully ignorant people in this hobby... and a lot more who are still on a steep learning curve.  And yes, there's always the odd one who simply isn't bothered.

 

I observed more than one layout with unadulterated Metcalfe kits at Warley this year.  Is that wrong?  Whilst those layouts only got a cursory look from myself, there were clearly many other show visitors who seemed to relate to these layouts better than those that I regard as epitomising modelling excellence.  

 

My own modelling is imperfect.  But as time goes by I learn and things get corrected... yet that same learning leads me to continuously discover yet more 'wrong' things, and so it will be for the rest of my days.  Recently, a new member at our club ran some of his stuff on our exhibition layout (on a club night, I hasten to add).  It was an NSE liveried diesel hauling a mix of wagons, including a few private owner 5-planks.  He enjoyed the evening, but at the same time he 'learned' things from the rest of us, which is one reason why he's joined our club.  We've already got him adding crew, coal and lamps to his steam locomotives, he's done some basic weathering and is currently working towards providing a full train of appropriately modelled stock that can be added to our exhibition roster.  He'll get there, given time and support.

 

As Neddy Seagoon said in Tales of Old Dartmoor:   "Little do they know how little I know about the little they know.  If only I knew the little that they know, I'd know a little.  I'll have to keep my little ears open you know."

 

[LNERandBR]

34 minutes ago, davidw said:

Any chance of explaining what mods you made to the tender. I always felt that the Hornby Tornado  captured the A1 rather well

 

Assume that the mods would be to better represent the original A1 tenders as Tornado's is modified from the original LNER design. From the photo, the rear around the water filler is the LNER spec. I think there's differences in the equipment cabinets on the footplate too given Tornado has lots more electrical gubbins.  

[davidw]

4 minutes ago, LNERandBR said:

 

Assume that the mods would be to better represent the original A1 tenders as Tornado's is modified from the original LNER design. From the photo, the rear around the water filler is the LNER spec. I think there's differences in the equipment cabinets on the footplate too given Tornado has lots more electrical gubbins.  

My question was badly phrased. What I meant was not what the mods were but how were they achieved. 

[grahame]

2 hours ago, rowanj said:

 

I alter or weather or rename/renumber  because that is what attracts me to the hobby, in the knowledge that I'm reducing the value of the loco. 

 

My view is that I may be reducing the value (by detailing, renumbering, weathering or whatever) of the loco but that is only to someone else and they're not going to get a chance to buy it. AFAIC I'd be increasing the value, fidelity and desirability of it to myself. Why worry about what value others put on your possessions?

 

 

 

[micklner]

2 hours ago, sandra said:

I can understand that someone may not like to do work on a new model which may have cost £200 but why not buy a cheap, possibly secondhand, model and experiment upgrading that.

 

The majority of the locomotives on Retford are kit built or use RTR bodies on a Comet chassis. However there a number of RTR locomotives of which this is one.This is a Railroad “Tornado” converted to EM gauge using the original mechanics and drivers. It’s had extra weight added and new smoke deflectors fitted and the tender has been modified to more closely resemble an A1 tender. Real coal has been added to the tender and it has been lightly weathered. The loco itself cost £50 and the only extra costs were Gibson bogie wheels and tender wheels and a set of nameplates from Fox. The locomotive can pull 12 coaches round Retford and is regularly diagrammed for an up express from Leeds. 
 

If modellers aren’t confident of modifying a new locomotive the I would suggest that something like this may be the place to start.

This the Hornby Tornado Tender as supplied a much different version than the one above.

 

 

 

 

[davidw]

23 minutes ago, micklner said:

This the Hornby Tornado Tender as supplied a much different version than the one above.

 

 

 

 

Thanks  Mick. Most helpful

[Guest Simon A.C. Martin]

2 hours ago, sandra said:

I can understand that someone may not like to do work on a new model which may have cost £200 but why not buy a cheap, possibly secondhand, model and experiment upgrading that.

 

The majority of the locomotives on Retford are kit built or use RTR bodies on a Comet chassis. However there a number of RTR locomotives of which this is one.This is a Railroad “Tornado” converted to EM gauge using the original mechanics and drivers. It’s had extra weight added and new smoke deflectors fitted and the tender has been modified to more closely resemble an A1 tender. Real coal has been added to the tender and it has been lightly weathered. The loco itself cost £50 and the only extra costs were Gibson bogie wheels and tender wheels and a set of nameplates from Fox. The locomotive can pull 12 coaches round Retford and is regularly diagrammed for an up express from Leeds. 
 

If modellers aren’t confident of modifying a new locomotive the I would suggest that something like this may be the place to start.

 

Beautifully done.

 

However...and I truly hate to be that guy (so my apologies Sandra)...but the choice of Madge Wildfire is wrong for your locomotive, that one being a standard Darlington built Peppercorn A1, with standard bearings on the cartazzi and tender frames.

 

With the mods you've done to the loco and tender (bravo by the way - very convincing), the issue is that the base model you have used, Tornado, is modelled as built with roller bearings, which both the model loco's cartazzi and its tender frames clearly exhibit.

 

Your model would be better named and numbered as one of Nos. 60153-7, which were fitted with the roller bearings in service with British Railways (no others were modified accordingly).

 

You then have the new problem of all of those locomotives being Doncaster built, which means unlike your engine (Tornado) which has the Darlington style of flush rivets on the cab and tender sides, these had theirs exposed. As below:

 

 

You can just about make out the line of rivets on the tender sides.

 

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fblue-diesels%2F6092529450&psig=AOvVaw2s0xvwmQUA4-iIOJiTYA01&ust=1671213770760000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBAQjhxqFwoTCNjwsc6a_PsCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

 

Number/Name/Build Date/Place/Withdrawal Date

 

60153 - Flamboyant - August 1949, Doncaster, November 1962

60154 - Bon Accord - September 1949, DoncasterOctober 1965

60155 - Borderer - September 1949, Doncaster, October 1965

60156 - Great Central - October 1949, Doncaster, May 1965

60157 - Great Eastern - November 1949, Doncaster, January 1965

 

So you have a few options:

 

1) Keep the bodyshell as is, but put a new Peppercorn A1 chassis for loco and tender underneath it with the correct axleboxes.

2) Keep the bodyshell, grind off the axleboxes on loco and tender and replace with the correct type - which would be my personal preference, were it me.

3) Change the bodyshell by way of using a Hornby body, but replacing the cab and tender with Bachmann alternatives which have the rivets.

4) Add rivets to cab and tender and repaint/rename

5) Do nothing and enjoy Madge Wildfire as she is, which is a very lovely model of a Peppercorn A1.

 

Sorry to be "that guy" - the nitpicky one - however, please accept it in the manner intended, which is intended to be helpful and not being nitpicky for the sake of being nitpicky.

 

Whatever you do - it's your railway!

[rowanj]

29 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

My view is that I may be reducing the value (by detailing, renumbering, weathering or whatever) of the loco but that is only to someone else and they're not going to get a chance to buy it. AFAIC I'd be increasing the value, fidelity and desirability of it to myself. Why worry about what value others put on your possessions?

 

 

 

i suppose for boring reasons such as a need to sell to meet economic needs, to downsize a layout because of a house change or deteriorating health, to sell on surplus stock, to replace an older model with a more current or better one, to take out insurance on a collection, or to manage the disposal of one's estate. I'm sure there are other reasons why people sell their stock. When I decided to concentrate on the NER in BR days, several ex-SR, GWR and LMR were sold on as "inappropriate".

But if you are never going to be in this position,  and never sell any of your stock, the discussion is academic.

[Tony Wright]

33 minutes ago, Simon A.C. Martin said:

 

Beautifully done.

 

However...and I truly hate to be that guy (so my apologies Sandra)...but the choice of Madge Wildfire is wrong for your locomotive, that one being a standard Darlington built Peppercorn A1, with standard bearings on the cartazzi and tender frames.

 

With the mods you've done to the loco and tender (bravo by the way - very convincing), the issue is that the base model you have used, Tornado, is modelled as built with roller bearings, which both the model loco's cartazzi and its tender frames clearly exhibit.

 

Your model would be better named and numbered as one of Nos. 60153-7, which were fitted with the roller bearings in service with British Railways (no others were modified accordingly).

 

You then have the new problem of all of those locomotives being Doncaster built, which means unlike your engine (Tornado) which has the Darlington style of flush rivets on the cab and tender sides, these had theirs exposed. As below:

 

 

You can just about make out the line of rivets on the tender sides.

 

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fblue-diesels%2F6092529450&psig=AOvVaw2s0xvwmQUA4-iIOJiTYA01&ust=1671213770760000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBAQjhxqFwoTCNjwsc6a_PsCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

 

Number/Name/Build Date/Place/Withdrawal Date

 

60153 - Flamboyant - August 1949, Doncaster, November 1962

60154 - Bon Accord - September 1949, DoncasterOctober 1965

60155 - Borderer - September 1949, Doncaster, October 1965

60156 - Great Central - October 1949, Doncaster, May 1965

60157 - Great Eastern - November 1949, Doncaster, January 1965

 

So you have a few options:

 

1) Keep the bodyshell as is, but put a new Peppercorn A1 chassis for loco and tender underneath it with the correct axleboxes.

2) Keep the bodyshell, grind off the axleboxes on loco and tender and replace with the correct type - which would be my personal preference, were it me.

3) Change the bodyshell by way of using a Hornby body, but replacing the cab and tender with Bachmann alternatives which have the rivets.

4) Add rivets to cab and tender and repaint/rename

5) Do nothing and enjoy Madge Wildfire as she is, which is a very lovely model of a Peppercorn A1.

 

Sorry to be "that guy" - the nitpicky one - however, please accept it in the manner intended, which is intended to be helpful and not being nitpicky for the sake of being nitpicky.

 

Whatever you do - it's your railway!

You're right Simon,

 

I've seen Sandra's MADGE WILDFIRE in action on Retford, and I have to admit I didn't notice the 'discrepancies'. Another detail, of course, is that the roller-bearing-fitted A1s only had one lubricator.

 

I didn't notice because (as with most of Retford's splendid Pacifics) it was bowling round at high speed!

 

 

 

 

I have to say, I still consider it a very fine model, though I'd be tempted to grind off the discs on the Cartazzi and tender axle box keeps.

 

The opposite from what I had to do with my model of GREAT CENTRAL...........

 

 

Which was to add the discs............. And not fit the second lubricator. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Tony Wright]

I suppose the 'ultimate' in not opening a model's box is to be found among the Kitmaster Collecting Society's 'treasures'.

 

I'm good friends with the principals, though I did find it 'absurd' to be shown a model of BIGGIN HILL in a presentation box with two or three green Mk.1 coaches - well, that's what was described on the box. That box was still wrapped in yellowing cellophane, which was intact. 'It's extremely rare and, thus, extremely valuable' I was told. 'But, mainly because of its original wrapping'. 'How do you know what's inside is as-described?'. I asked. 'It could just be plastic sprues, or not even be complete'. 'Hah..............'.

 

I'm told that some folk buy extremely rare wines, yet never drink them...............

 

 

[D-A-T]

The Schrödinger's cat area of collecting?

[LNERandBR]

I would love to see the faces on some of these collectors if you ripped off the wrapping and opened the box! 

[t-b-g]

I am picturing a small workshop somewhere, with an unscrupulous forger taking new Cellophane, aging it by wiping it with used teabags and sticking it around opened Kitmaster boxes, then adding reproductions of price stickers in Shillings and Pence from long defunct model shops, using old Railway Modeller adverts to get the names and prices correct.

[Bernard Lamb]

My brother in law makes model cars and takes his stand to various shows.

He also attends local swap meets.

One day when I was with him he wanted a particular kit and new a chap who would have it.

We went to the stand and the chap opened a case that contained the kit.

In the case were several Airix kits that are regarded as rare.

These were not for sale to the general public and were never on show.

The chap told me that he had several more of each at home and only released two or three of each a year to keep prices up.

There seems to be more to this collecting lark than meets the eye.

 

I view my hobby purchases as just that, they are out of surplus income and for my enjoyment. I regard them as consumables and once bought any resale value is just incedental. If you cannot afford to write them off then do not buy them in the first place

Bernard

 

[micklner]

56 minutes ago, Simon A.C. Martin said:

 

Beautifully done.

 

However...and I truly hate to be that guy (so my apologies Sandra)...but the choice of Madge Wildfire is wrong for your locomotive, that one being a standard Darlington built Peppercorn A1, with standard bearings on the cartazzi and tender frames.

 

With the mods you've done to the loco and tender (bravo by the way - very convincing), the issue is that the base model you have used, Tornado, is modelled as built with roller bearings, which both the model loco's cartazzi and its tender frames clearly exhibit.

 

Your model would be better named and numbered as one of Nos. 60153-7, which were fitted with the roller bearings in service with British Railways (no others were modified accordingly).

 

You then have the new problem of all of those locomotives being Doncaster built, which means unlike your engine (Tornado) which has the Darlington style of flush rivets on the cab and tender sides, these had theirs exposed. As below:

 

 

You can just about make out the line of rivets on the tender sides.

 

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fblue-diesels%2F6092529450&psig=AOvVaw2s0xvwmQUA4-iIOJiTYA01&ust=1671213770760000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBAQjhxqFwoTCNjwsc6a_PsCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

 

Number/Name/Build Date/Place/Withdrawal Date

 

60153 - Flamboyant - August 1949, Doncaster, November 1962

60154 - Bon Accord - September 1949, DoncasterOctober 1965

60155 - Borderer - September 1949, Doncaster, October 1965

60156 - Great Central - October 1949, Doncaster, May 1965

60157 - Great Eastern - November 1949, Doncaster, January 1965

 

So you have a few options:

 

1) Keep the bodyshell as is, but put a new Peppercorn A1 chassis for loco and tender underneath it with the correct axleboxes.

2) Keep the bodyshell, grind off the axleboxes on loco and tender and replace with the correct type - which would be my personal preference, were it me.

3) Change the bodyshell by way of using a Hornby body, but replacing the cab and tender with Bachmann alternatives which have the rivets.

4) Add rivets to cab and tender and repaint/rename

5) Do nothing and enjoy Madge Wildfire as she is, which is a very lovely model of a Peppercorn A1.

 

Sorry to be "that guy" - the nitpicky one - however, please accept it in the manner intended, which is intended to be helpful and not being nitpicky for the sake of being nitpicky.

 

Whatever you do - it's your railway!

Or much simpler soloution if the Tender is a Hornby based version.

 

Exchange the Tender base only, a seperate part easily available, such as the one used on  the  HornbyA1/A3 A4.

 

The only minor problem is the Caratazzi Truck as the Tornado has the Truck cast with the remainder of the chassis. Either flatten and file off the two Discs , or file off the Truck area and replace with a replacement Comet Cartazzi casting. https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/ls14/

 

Same solution for the Tender if it is a Bachmann version. Similar Parts again available direct from Bachmann.

[sandra]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

This the Hornby Tornado Tender as supplied a much different version than the one above.

 

 

 

 

The tender on “Madge Wildfire” was like this when I bought it. I cut out the area round the tank filler and lowered it to match the standard A1 tender. I then fabricated the filler and other parts from plasticard. The existing coal load was then covered with real coal.

 

The “Tornado” I bought was new but it had been split from a train set and was in BR Green livery when I bought it, I didn’t alter the livery at all apart from some light weathering.

[D-A-T]

20 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I am picturing a small workshop somewhere, with an unscrupulous forger taking new Cellophane, aging it by wiping it with used teabags and sticking it around opened Kitmaster boxes, then adding reproductions of price stickers in Shillings and Pence from long defunct model shops, using old Railway Modeller adverts to get the names and prices correct.

Thanks for the idea…..

[Michael Edge]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The issue of the Pullmans passing is surely just a question of working to the timetable?

 

But i still understand this token system that has been mentioned - unless it's the case that each Pullman has a dedicated fiddle yard line? I can see how that would work.

First of all we don't work the layout to a timetable, just run the trains as we see fit. The fiddle yard is in two unconnected halves, up and down, we don't even have a crossover in there (although I would have liked at least one for stock transfers) so one Pullman set goes one up to St Pancras, the other runs down to Manchester. If they had crossed at Chapel one would have been running very late or on an empty stock working, there were three sets. We usually run the black Fell up towards Derby, then it apparently comes back to Manchester in its final green livery. One of the Pullman sets is Bachmann, the other Kitmaster, needless to say neither of the Fell models is the KR one, they are the first two test etches of the Judith Edge kit.

[richard i]

 

I'm told that some folk buy extremely rare wines, yet never drink them...............
 

or are waiting for enough people to come around to drink it as once opened they need to be drunk quickly.

richard 

[melmoth]

RE @Bernard Lambabove. I think the overall point (which has surely been made many times before) is that collecting is a very different thing to modelling. You could find more commonality among those whose collect Hornby A4s, cigarette cards, infectious diseases, or editions of the works of John Cowper Powys than you would among any of the foregoing and someone who reckoned themselves a modeller in any given discipline.

[zr2498]

Tony

Your running sequence is now on U-tube

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by zr2498

[Northmoor]

7 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

Some RTR variations here, with a quartet of Westerns. 

 

 

From left to right: Dapol, Heljan, Heljan, Lima. 

 

Of the four, the only one that hasn't had any work on it, besides weathering, is the Dapol one. And, to give due credit, that was weathered by Lord and Butler. I've still to attach the detailing parts, including the brake ties which are such a characteristic feature of these locos.

 

The other three have had a lot more done to them. Both Heljans have had their cab roofs reprofiled in the manner described by (I think) Chris Leigh in Model Rail. The roof-top ventilator is carefully sawn off, and then the brow sanded and filed down to something closer to the correct shape - on the original it's a bit too "peaky" but I only think it jars next to other models with a better profile. Once the shape has been achieved, the ventilator is re-attached, and then the damage covered up by patch painting and weathering. As it's the roof, you can get away with murder.

 

The brake rods are a pain to fit to these locos. Heljan included plastic parts but they won't work on anything less than virtually scale curves, such are the clearances. On the maroon loco, I used the brake shoes only, fitting them in closer to the wheel treads and then using brass wire to represent the rods. On the green loco, I made full use of the Heljan parts but only with much swearing and frustration until the loco could just squeak around the layout's tight spots. The Heljan plastic is springy and difficult to glue, so I used a soldering iron in places to coax it into shape and position.

 

The Lima is a case in point regarding the devaluation of RTR locos! Mine was less than a day old when I started weathering it, using ink from my dad's Rapido pen run into the grill detail. That was 43 years ago. It's since had the Brassmasters detailing kit applied, which involves major modification to the cab, as well as etched window surrounds. The loco also has Ultrascale wheels, new pickups, and a CD motor substituted for the Lima pancake. The rest of the transmission is still pure Lima, though, and it runs superbly well, with a nice low growl. Despite only having two driven axles with no traction tyres, it's quite a beefy hauler. The brake gear is all Brassmasters, but it's an easier fit this time since Lima added a bit more clearance around the front fairing.

 

I seem to remember a modern kit for a Western being mooted at one point but I don't think it ever emerged, so really RTR is the only way to go here.

 

Al

A post which sums up my own modelling.  I've never bought any of the newer "Westerns" but have three Lima in Desert Sand, Maroon and Blue.  The latter two are in the round tuit pile but Western Enterprise, after about 30 years, finally gained the correct D1000 number plates when I found a part-used set of Western name/number decals at a swapmeet for about 50p.  The other two got renamed/renumbered as well (why would i want them to be same as everyone else's?).  In my youth I did carve off the lamps from the ends and carefully match some paint to cover the "damage" and I also weathered it.  The main point though is, that no matter how good the newer model might be, I would never part with D1000 in Desert Sand, because it was a birthday gift when I was on holiday somewhere; I can recall sitting in our caravan eating breakfast with it on the table and just staring at it.

 

As for people who won't risk destroying an expensive model, why can't these people figure out that even the experts started out on something cheap?  My repainting and weathering is still pretty rubbish, but I'm improving.  I remember my first (about age 9) was a Lima Plymouth shunter which I gave about 6 coats of paint - and it showed! - then tried to strip to try again using Nitromors.  Unfortunately I wandered off and forgot about it for 20 minutes......  But what did that damage and the lesson learned, cost?  Even in today's money, you can pick up old loco bodies or wagons for £3 or even less.  It seems to me the "I can't do that" want instant, beautiful models but aren't prepared to put the hours in.