Wright writes.....

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

but it is reasonable to say that no British compound designs were really successful, possibly with the exception of the MR 4-4-0's.

 

Corrected for you!

 

1 hour ago, drmditch said:

Since there is a direct family connection between W M Smith (responsible for these) and Derby works then perhaps these were related to the MR/LMS compounds.

 

Very much so! The first five compounds, Nos. 2631-5, were Smith-Johnson compounds, i.e. using W.M. Smith's three cylinder layout in a locomotive designed under S.W. Johnson's superintendency. Smith had been part of Johnson's team (along with William Stroudley and Dugald Drummond) at Cowlairs in the 1860s - keeping the E&GR's dodgy locomotive fleet going no doubt built up a spirit of camararderie amongst these young men - Johnson and Stroudley were both just turning 30 while Drummond and Smith were in their early 20s. Smith's son John was in the Derby LDO under Johnson but moved to Gorton - where J.G. Robinson was building Smith compounds - soon after Deeley took over at Derby. That was no doubt because Deeley set about weeding out all the Smith patent features from the compounds, to avoid royalty payments, resulting in the classic Midland Compound, from which was derived the LMS Standard compound and, to a considerable extent, the Great Northern / Beyer Peacock compounds.

 

1 hour ago, drmditch said:

Should you not also consider NER No.1619  three cylinder compound, and the two NER four cylinder compound Atlantics Nos 730 and 731.

 

Also of course the large number of Worsdell-von Borries two cylinder compounds on the North Eastern, although uncompounded by T.W.'s little brother Wilson - both, incidentally, Crewe men. Also the Belfast & Northern Counties Worsdell-von Borries compounds built under Bowman Malcolm's superintendency, which saw long service.

 

1 hour ago, drmditch said:

Yes, compounds have a disappointing history in Great Britain.

 

Not so very disappointing, I would argue; just that the local conditions weren't entirely favourable, for a variety of reasons. Though few in number, the Irish ones were undoubtedly successful!

[t-b-g]

The C5 Atlantics to Robinson's designs were not exactly a flop and stayed in traffic for around 40 years without any major rebuilds or alterations.

 

They remained a small experimental class because the reduction in the amount of coal they used wasn't great and the saving was cancelled out by the extra cost and complexity of the construction.

[drmditch]

This is hi-jacking Mr Wright's thread.

But, just one more interesting point.

There is at least one Worsdell Von-Borries road engine surviving, and (pre-covid) operational.

 

Now, enough!

I have trains to run and vans to finish!

Edited January 4, 2023 by drmditch

[Tony Wright]

More on 'Semis' (this magnificent class has no other name to any trainspotter who saw them)......

 

 

 

DUCHESS OF SUTHERLAND looks resplendent in LMS lined black.

 

 

 

But better in LMS maroon?

 

Shots like this pair are impossible now since a decree went out that all the world will be fenced! 

 

 

In model form, a 'Semi' looks good in black (Hornby RTR).

 

 

And in BR blue (built/painted from a DJH kit by Bob Paddison).

 

 

And, certainly in BR maroon. I did this Hornby/Comet conversion and Ian Rathbone painted it. 

 

 

I built a DJH kit, which Geoff Haynes painted.

 

 

It ran on Little Bytham for a short time, recalling 46245's working of a railtour in 1963.

 

 

But now, it's much more at home on Shap.

 

 

Iain Henderson brought his Hornby/Comet conversion along - Horny body/Comet frames. 

 

 

And Timara (as now) Easter brought this detailed/repainted Hornby one to run on LB. 

 

Though splendid in maroon, in my opinion, the 'Semis' looked their best in BR green............

 

 

Hornby/Hornby Dublo's 'Semi' with a die-cast body; detailed by me and weathered by Geoff Haynes. It's now a permanent resident on Shap.

 

 

And a scratch-built one. Started by I know not whom, I built a Comet chassis for it, completed it and Ian Rathbone painted it. 

 

It's now the property of the same friend who owns 46256.

 

Whatever the finished colour (of any loco), when I attend shows, many observers state that metal models look better if left unpainted! 

 

 

Some of these images will have been seen before, but probably hundreds of pages back and thus lost. Fortunately, I have back-up for all the images I paste on RMweb. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

43 minutes ago, drmditch said:

This is hi-jacking Mr Wright's thread.

But, just one more interesting point.

There is at least one Worsdell Von-Borries road engine surviving, and (pre-covid) operational.

 

Now, enough!

I have trains to run and vans to finish!

To whom it might concern, please 'high-jack' away!

 

If this thread were just about me and what I do, it would be nowhere near as active and interesting as it is now. Active and interesting because of all those who 'high-jack' it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[TrevorP1]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Though it looked a good deal better than "Royal Purple" on 34027 IMHO.

 

Anything is better than that... Even the Caley blue Fairburn tank!

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Of course we all know that the original "City of Manchester" was a Robinson 4-6-0 No 425 (later B2 No 5425).

 

Ahem...

 

 

[Embedded link to Mary Evans Picture Library website thumbnail.]

 

LNWR Dreadnought Class 3-cylinder compound 2-2-2-0 No. 173, built March 1886, Crewe motion No. 2896.

 

Sticking with the compound digression!

[t-b-g]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ahem...

 

 

[Embedded link to Mary Evans Picture Library website thumbnail.]

 

LNWR Dreadnought Class 3-cylinder compound 2-2-2-0 No. 173, built March 1886, Crewe motion No. 2896.

 

Sticking with the compound digression!

 

OK, OK, you got me! I should have said best looking, not original. Then somebody will argue with me about that too, so I will just say that the GCR had a very nice looking loco called City of Manchester.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

OK, OK, you got me! I should have said best looking, 

 

I might actually give you that:

 

 

[Embedded link to Smugmug gallery.]

 

This is Sir Sam Fay, since the only GCR-livery photo of City of Manchester I could find wasn't as shiny. But for myself I prefer the look of the earlier, small-boilered, 4-4-2s and 4-6-0s.

[APOLLO]

Now THIS is a compound, note the different cylinder diameters. These locos were so good the last was built well into the diesel age back in 1952. The N&W was 100% steam then, but the diesels came and gradually usurped steam.

 

 

Noisy video of these fantastic locos. I have a Rivarossi HO model from many years ago, in the display cabinet.

 

 

Nowhere near as good looking as a Semi though !!

 

Brit15

[polybear]

25 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Now THIS is a compound, note the different cylinder diameters. These locos were so good the last was built well into the diesel age back in 1952. The N&W was 100% steam then, but the diesels came and gradually usurped steam.

 

 

Noisy video of these fantastic locos. I have a Rivarossi HO model from many years ago, in the display cabinet.

 

 

Jeez - imagine making one of those from a kit; enough to make even the hardest modeller cry with fear...... 

[APOLLO]

28 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Jeez - imagine making one of those from a kit; enough to make even the hardest modeller cry with fear...... 

 

Dead easy, snaps together, no gluing !!!!!!!

 

 

Brit15

[polybear]

11 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Dead easy, snaps together, no gluing !!!!!!!

 

 

Brit15

 

That's cheating......😁

 

[Tony Wright]

Mentioning B2s..............

 

 

I have some other shots of the original B2s, but they're on film.

 

I can't remember who brought this. 

 

 

Or who brought this Thompson version (coupled to an ex-P1 tender). 

 

 

Barry Oliver brought this scratch-built B2, which Geoff West bought.

 

 

And Geoff Haynes repainted it. 

 

NORWICH CITY was the only B2 to have ten-spoked bogie wheels. 

 

 

 

 

[robertcwp]

I like the Thompson B2 models. Does anyone know of any evidence of the type working the Harwich-Liverpool boat train, please?

[Ian Rathbone]

7 hours ago, drmditch said:

 

Yes, compounds have a disappointing history in Great Britain.

Should you not also consider NER No.1619  three cylinder compound, and the two NER four cylinder compound Atlantics Nos 730 and 731.

Since there is a direct family connection between W M Smith (responsible for these) and Derby works then perhaps these were related to the MR/LMS compounds.

 

A couple of compounds in 7mm scale. The first is Greater Britain 2-2-2-2 in Queen Victoria’s Jubilee livery (which it carried for about 6 months. The model, which I built, has a Delrin chain between the uncoupled driving wheels.

 

The second, built by Bill Davis is a NER 2 cylinder compound 4-2-2. Photographed before handrails and various bright parts were added.

 

 

Livery’s a bit bright!

 

Ian R

[billbedford]

9 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I suspected I might need to resort to images. I hope that posting this here is OK - a heavy crop of my reference photo of a published image.

 

 

Further apologies / clarification - it's actually ex-LMS locos that are the cases to hand (despite my RMWeb alias - might have to change that to 'LMS6229' one day to better reflect modelling projects going forward).

 

The lettering depicted is described as 10" block style, applied mainly at Crewe, from what I understand.

 

Thanks, in anticipation.

 

That looks like the LMS 1946 numbers. There are drawings of these in 'An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives' by Jenkinson & Essery,  Volume 1 (page 201 in he edition I have)

 

 

[45609]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Mentioning B2s..............

 

OK, that's lured me out of the darkness. Here are a couple of photos of "Sir Sam" built from the rather rare (and not particularly good) Jaylines kit. I estimate that 60% of the loco had to be scratch built.

 

Cheers...Morgan

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, Ian Rathbone said:

A couple of compounds in 7mm scale.

 

Now you're teasing us with that graceful Robinson atlantic lurking behind the Class J.

 

Incidentally, Class J No. 1517 was the joint fastest British locomotive of the 19th century, attaining 90 mph during a series of trials when new - c. 1890 -  overseen by W.M. Smith. (I'm uncertain of his position at Gateshead at the time. He had been appointed as Works Manager under McDonnell and ended as Chief Draughtsman under Wilson Worsdell.) The locomotive with which it tied was one of S.W. Johnson's 115 Class "spinners", No. 117, with a service train, with speed over 80 mph maintained over 13 mile, on the long 1:200 down to Bedford, in 1896. The 115 Class were the first Midland engines to have piston valves, which no doubt contributed to their swiftness - Johnson had been encouraged to adopt them by W.M. Smith.

[65179]

4 hours ago, robertcwp said:

I like the Thompson B2 models. Does anyone know of any evidence of the type working the Harwich-Liverpool boat train, please?

 

The closest I can see is reference in the RCTS volume to the class making it to Sheffield on the summer only services to/from Manchester when the class was concentrated at Cambridge for their last 2 or 3 years.

 

Simon 

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, robertcwp said:

I like the Thompson B2 models. Does anyone know of any evidence of the type working the Harwich-Liverpool boat train, please?

Good morning Robert,

 

Quoting from the RCTS Part 2B, after all the class was shedded at Cambridge from 1956..... 'They were used on all the main line duties from that shed and even worked as far afield as Sheffield on the summer 9-15 a.m. to Manchester, returning with the corresponding up train at 3-2 p.m.' (Confirmed in previous post by 65179). Though I trainspotted at Retford from 1955-'56 until after the B2s were withdrawn, I never saw one. Since my memories of the time recall that the only passenger train which ran non-stop east-west through Retford was the boat train (always with a B17, then a 'Britannia'), then can we assume that the B2s' train mentioned stopped in the station? 

 

Sandra, of course, is building a B2 for Retford.............

 

 

Built from a DMR kit (I think).

 

I built one in EM several years ago when the kit was released (it was written up in BRM). It was going to be used on the putative Audley End, but what eventually happened to the loco (and the Audley End project), I have no idea. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[robertcwp]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Robert,

 

Quoting from the RCTS Part 2B, after all the class was shedded at Cambridge from 1956..... 'They were used on all the main line duties from that shed and even worked as far afield as Sheffield on the summer 9-15 a.m. to Manchester, returning with the corresponding up train at 3-2 p.m.' (Confirmed in previous post by 65179). Though I trainspotted at Retford from 1955-'56 until after the B2s were withdrawn, I never saw one. Since my memories of the time recall that the only passenger train which ran non-stop east-west through Retford was the boat train (always with a B17, then a 'Britannia'), then can we assume that the B2s' train mentioned stopped in the station? 

 

 

I could not find the train referred to in the 1957 summer timetable but there was a dated Fridays and Saturdays Ely-Manchester Central and return, which appears to a have been a relief train for the boat train. The relief train did not call at Retford in either direction. 

 

I have seen a photo of a B1 on the boat train at Retford. It is not captioned as such but is very clearly the boat train. 

[65179]

3 hours ago, robertcwp said:

 

 

I have seen a photo of a B1 on the boat train at Retford. It is not captioned as such but is very clearly the boat train. 

 

Not as easy to spot as it was in  1949/50 though I'm sure Robert!

 

A 1950 one from Rail Online:

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p319746925/h15107f58

 

2 end door thirds and a BG followed by a Tavern car pair tends to stand out.

 

Simon

Edited January 5, 2023 by 65179
to make comment less opaque

[johndon]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I built one in EM several years ago when the kit was released (it was written up in BRM). It was going to be used on the putative Audley End, but what eventually happened to the loco (and the Audley End project), I have no idea. 

 

I can't speak for the loco but I do know that the Audley End layout did not come to fruition.

[Tony Wright]

34 minutes ago, johndon said:

 

I can't speak for the loco but I do know that the Audley End layout did not come to fruition.

Thanks John,

 

I'd like to know what came of it. I built it as 61632 after it became ROYAL SOVEREIGN, with the ex-P1 tender. 

 

The whole thing worked out quite well. Mike Russell donated the kit, I provided the wheels/motor, built it, and Ian Rathbone painted it. The Audley End team paid for Ian's painting and I was paid for writing the article. Mike got a set of pictures, one of which he used on the kit's box afterwards. I tested and photographed it (only on film I'm afraid) on Retford, and it was handed over to the quartet of Martin Lloyd, Mark Lloyd, Richard Nice and Harry Anstess (along with Norman Venus, the builders of Biggleswade). It could have ended up in France with Harry, though who's got it now, I don't know. If it's never going to be used, I'd like to get it back (at a fee, of course) for use on Retford. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.