Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, SD85 said:

Thanks. Thought it worth a try anyway.

 

I was sure you'd photographed Albion Street though? I'll have to find the article.

 

One layout I think you definitely did photograph was Littlehaven Harbour which was a quite compact Sussex urban seaside terminus. I liked that one too.

If pictures of mine of Littlehaven Harbour did exist, they be transparencies, and, thus, now lost I'm afraid. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Pictures of one of the Pullman cars in the Hornby TT set............

 

By 1927, this one (and the other two) would have been on the SR, so not going to Scotland.

 

Still, a rather good-looking model. 

 

[CF MRC]

I would love to get my hands on one of the TT120 pacifics  and reduce the flanges to a more aesthetic proportion - but I’ve got quite a lot on my plate already…

 

Tim

[davidw]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Pictures of one of the Pullman cars in the Hornby TT set............

 

By 1927, this one (and the other two) would have been on the SR, so not going to Scotland.

 

Still, a rather good-looking model. 

 

Is it my imagination or is the livery on the TT model pullman's  better than on the 4mm?

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

 

Plans in 1978 or 79 MRC AFAIR

LSWR Ironclad Drawings/notes:

 

MRC, July and August 1979, some additional info in a "Postscript" in the November issue.

 

How-to-make conversion articles:

 

Railway Modeller, August 1967 (Farish based)

 

MRC, July and September 1975 (Tri-ang based).

 

John

Edited January 19, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

11 minutes ago, davidw said:

Is it my imagination or is the livery on the TT model pullman's  better than on the 4mm?

 

As in milk chocolate rather than plain? I'd be inclined to agree.

[Tony Teague]

6 hours ago, SD85 said:

On the subject of coaches, am I right in thinking that no one makes any kit or RTR model of an LSWR Ironclad at present?

 

I would like to model the Guildford breakdown train as it was in the 60s and while Bachmann do the crane and the brake van is sourceable via kit/RTR, the mess coach for that era seems to have been a converted Ironclad and I'm beginning to think it may require scratchbuilding.

 

SRG have a range of Ironclads in the Phoenix range, however if you take a look at their website you will see that they are not currently taking any orders, so how useful this information will be, I am not sure:

http://srg.org.uk/phoenix/

(I have a couple of Ironclad rakes based on their products from back in the day when they actually delivered stuff.......)

Tony

[bbishop]

The Ironclad composite was on Trevor Charlton's list, but whether he actually produced any in 4mm.

 

Unfortunately the prototypes were a decade to late for Southwark Bridge Models.  

 

There was an outfit, producing 4mm kits mainly of Southern EMUs, that might just have done Ironclads.  Just can't dredge up a name.  

 

Bill

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, davidw said:

Is it my imagination or is the livery on the TT model pullman's  better than on the 4mm?

You could well be right David.

 

The subject of Pullmans' umber & cream livery has vexed modellers for generations. Which is right or not, whether it be RTR or kit-builds/modifications?

 

I offer the following images for (possible) discussion.........

 

For a start....

 

Hornby's 'Devon Belle' Observation Car.

 

And, at a considerably higher price.................

 

 

Golden Age's offering. 

 

Well over a quarter of a century ago, I made-up the 'Queen of Scots' using Comet sides on Hornby donors, fitted with MJT detailing parts and running on MJT bogies. Ian Rathbone painted the lot, and it was written-up in BRM. 

 

 

 

I still think this is the nearest to the correct Pullman colours. Mind you, it does take a top painter; something way beyond my capabilities.

 

I mixed-up the rake.........

 

 

To represent another Pullman service. 

 

Hornby's 12-wheelers............

 

 

 

Difficult to get hold of now, I believe.

 

 

As is this.

 

Even the later releases of the 1928 all-steel cars are all but impossible to get now........

 

 

I took this...........

 

 

And detailed/weathered it to make it look (I hope) more-natural, though I think the cream has a touch of 'green' in it. 

 

I used this, and others to make-up part of............

 

 

'The Yorkshire Pullman'.....

 

 

There is a difference in the colours between these and.............

 

 

Some of the other cars in the rake; in this case one of my Ian Rathbone-painted modified ones and an original all-steel Hornby Pullman (modified, and running on the correct bogies). 

 

The shot below makes an interesting comparison.....

 

 

From top to bottom...

 

A Hornby/comet/MJT/Wright/Rathbone one.

A modified Hornby original car.

A later Hornby car.

And what was the latest Hornby Pullman. 

 

No two exactly the same..........

 

But, the biggest difference in Pullman colours is between Hornby's rendition and Bachmann's of umber/cream..................

 

 

 

Even after weathering...........

 

Which is nearer? I'm not sure.

 

When Dave Lewis introduced the Mk.1 cars to his range, his colours matched those of Hornby much more-closely........

 

 

As seen in this view of the Down 'Master 'Cutler' on Stoke. 

 

Ian Rathbone painted the middle car (another of my mods) in colours to match - different from what he'd done for me before.

 

Little Bytham's 'Master Cutler' is made-up from modified (earlier) Hornby cars............

 

 

Which suit quite well. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bbishop]

55 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

 

SRG have a range of Ironclads in the Phoenix range, however if you take a look at their website you will see that they are not currently taking any orders, so how useful this information will be, I am not sure:

http://srg.org.uk/phoenix/

(I have a couple of Ironclad rakes based on their products from back in the day when they actually delivered stuff.......)

Tony

Thanks Tony, something would have arisen from my brain, but you got there first.  Bill

[davidw]

49 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

You could well be right David.

 

The subject of Pullmans' umber & cream livery has vexed modellers for generations. Which is right or not, whether it be RTR or kit-builds/modifications?

 

I offer the following images for (possible) discussion.........

 

For a start....

 

Hornby's 'Devon Belle' Observation Car.

 

And, at a considerably higher price.................

 

 

Golden Age's offering. 

 

Well over a quarter of a century ago, I made-up the 'Queen of Scots' using Comet sides on Hornby donors, fitted with MJT detailing parts and running on MJT bogies. Ian Rathbone painted the lot, and it was written-up in BRM. 

 

 

 

I still think this is the nearest to the correct Pullman colours. Mind you, it does take a top painter; something way beyond my capabilities.

 

I mixed-up the rake.........

 

 

To represent another Pullman service. 

 

Hornby's 12-wheelers............

 

 

 

Difficult to get hold of now, I believe.

 

 

As is this.

 

Even the later releases of the 1928 all-steel cars are all but impossible to get now........

 

 

I took this...........

 

 

And detailed/weathered it to make it look (I hope) more-natural, though I think the cream has a touch of 'green' in it. 

 

I used this, and others to make-up part of............

 

 

'The Yorkshire Pullman'.....

 

 

There is a difference in the colours between these and.............

 

 

Some of the other cars in the rake; in this case one of my Ian Rathbone-painted modified ones and an original all-steel Hornby Pullman (modified, and running on the correct bogies). 

 

The shot below makes an interesting comparison.....

 

 

From top to bottom...

 

A Hornby/comet/MJT/Wright/Rathbone one.

A modified Hornby original car.

A later Hornby car.

And what was the latest Hornby Pullman. 

 

No two exactly the same..........

 

But, the biggest difference in Pullman colours is between Hornby's rendition and Bachmann's of umber/cream..................

 

 

 

Even after weathering...........

 

Which is nearer? I'm not sure.

 

When Dave Lewis introduced the Mk.1 cars to his range, his colours matched those of Hornby much more-closely........

 

 

As seen in this view of the Down 'Master 'Cutler' on Stoke. 

 

Ian Rathbone painted the middle car (another of my mods) in colours to match - different from what he'd done for me before.

 

Little Bytham's 'Master Cutler' is made-up from modified (earlier) Hornby cars............

 

 

Which suit quite well. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Tony,

I've always thought the Hornby Pullman's were exquisite models but the livery s bit off. 

1928 k steel cars occasionally come up on ebay. If the seller knows what they are, then there tends to be a premium to get hold of them. 

[Jesse Sim]

6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Jesse,

 

It's your model, so do what you please with it. Actually, the A2 looks quite natural, though I doubt if I'd have weathered a pro-paint job to the same extent. 

 

THE WHITE KNIGHT looks interesting. I think there's a similar conversion on Grantham...............

 

 

There is, but this is the other one, SHOTOVER.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

That’s exactly why I was uneasy about weathering her as Geoff has done such a fantastic job but I prefer her to be as close to the real thing over “oh she’s pretty like that, I’ll leave it”. Not enough models are weathered these days, I feel models are far to clean even layouts themselves. I feel like I just started another debate by accident…..

 

Yes 2576 & 2580 were the two that received the ACFI gear, SHOTOVER was done by Jonathan. I decided to use White Knight as it sounds like a good name and so I’m also not copying JW. 

[robertcwp]

2 hours ago, davidw said:

Thanks Tony,

I've always thought the Hornby Pullman's were exquisite models but the livery s bit off. 

1928 k steel cars occasionally come up on ebay. If the seller knows what they are, then there tends to be a premium to get hold of them. 

I agree that the livery on the Hornby cars is not great. It's mainly the umber that is too dark. That aside, I think the models are very good.

 

The other issue with the Hornby models is that I don't think they have done 1950s liveries on the 8-wheel cars. They are either in an older style with "THIRD CLASS" on the Thirds or are in the simplified livery with the later emblem that is post-1960 or thereabouts.

[robertcwp]

I took this photo on 12 February 2005, so it was probably at the Doncaster show. Is this Tom Wright's layout?

 

P1010106 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Pint of Adnams]

On 18/01/2023 at 08:11, Tony Wright said:

I have,

 

As intimated, the hardest part will be keeping my list down to 30 layouts representing the three decades of BRM's existence. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Without delving in the garage - far too cold out there at the moment - and if memory doesn't fail me, hasn't BRM already produced a couple of 'bookazines' showing first historic layouts that drove the hobby forward, and second one showcasing 100 'best' layouts? You, Tony, will have taken quite a number of the photographs used therein (no, not those from the early years of the best part of a century ago).

 

Howsabout following up by endeavouring to showcase layouts that appeared in the years after those in the earlier publications?

 

Just a thought/suggestion...

Edited January 19, 2023 by Pint of Adnams
Tarting up text.

[Pint of Adnams]

On 13/01/2023 at 12:48, Steven B said:

 

It's not BR's fault that Gresley put the beading too low down 😀

RB_Gresley_unknown by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

Steel sided coaches carried the livery well. Mr Thompson did a much better job:

LNER Thompson 63' "RB" (Buffet Lounge Car) No.E1705E by Hugh Llewelyn, on Flickr

 

LMS porthole stock were OK too:

(John Turner on Flickr)

 

I haven't been able to find any SR or GWR passenger stock in blue/grey.

 

Steven B

Couldn't possibly let this pass without composting the nasturtiums thrown by the OP.

 

GNR/East Coast Joint and hence LNER coaching stock maintained a style developed back in the 19th century. It just happened that the windows were placed higher up the sides closer to the cantrail; naturally this meant the the lower window line was also higher than seen on coaching stock of comparative companies. The beading was at floor and waist level, and in between, and looked excellent when lined.

 

Gresley had previously built steel panelled coaching stock, for general service and for special trains (the streamlined sets), as well as the Tourist stock which used plywood and steel sheathing, there was even one with aluminium body panels and cast doors (the 'Alpax' carriage).

 

The post-war stock attributed to Thompson used windows that were 3" deeper, but still set high in the bodyside.

 

Other companies adopted differing styles, the LMS setting the windows much lower in the body closer to the waist, whilst Maunsell used rather shallow windows with the occasional taller ones mixed in, and so on.

 

When it came to the Railway Executive, all of these livery details were in the hands of ex-LMS (or LNWR) Derby types and they naturally favoured setting the level at which the change in livery from Crimson to Cream to suit the LMS stock. Consequently it did not look right on some other companies stock and the LNER's in particular; in fact there was no space to apply the upper Crimson band over the tops of the windows below cantrail level and indeed there were many Thompson coaches that had this omitted too.

 

The third photograph in the OP clearly illustrates how this scheme suited the LMS stock and was carried forward to later Marks of coaching stock. It also illustrates how close the waist-level lining is when applied to Maroon Mark 1 stock fitted with deeper windows.

 

So Gresley was right and Derby couldn't be bothered?

 

[Tony Wright]

51 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

That’s exactly why I was uneasy about weathering her as Geoff has done such a fantastic job but I prefer her to be as close to the real thing over “oh she’s pretty like that, I’ll leave it”. Not enough models are weathered these days, I feel models are far to clean even layouts themselves. I feel like I just started another debate by accident…..

 

Yes 2576 & 2580 were the two that received the ACFI gear, SHOTOVER was done by Jonathan. I decided to use White Knight as it sounds like a good name and so I’m also not copying JW. 

Good evening Jesse,

 

THE WHITE KNIGHT was the first A3 I can remember seeing; at Retford, in 1956. A long time ago!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

29 minutes ago, Pint of Adnams said:

Without delving in the garage - far too cold out there at the moment - and if memory doesn't fail me, hasn't BRM already produced a couple of 'bookazines' showing first historic layouts that drove the hobby forward, and second one showcasing 100 'best' layouts? You, Tony, will have taken quite a number of the photographs used therein (no, not those from the early years of the best part of a century ago).

 

Howsabout following up by endeavouring to showcase layouts that appeared in the years after those in the earlier publications?

 

Just a thought/suggestion...

My memory is questionable at the best of times. 

 

We'll try our best to not have too much duplication of stuff, but 'influential' layouts will always be that, and I'll try and show pictures which haven't been see already. It's taking a lot of time...............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

44 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I took this photo on 12 February 2005, so it was probably at the Doncaster show. Is this Tom Wright's layout?

 

P1010106 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Good evening Robert,

 

It is.

 

It's now the property of Richard Wilson, but I doubt if it'll ever be seen again. 

 

Speaking with Tom the other day, he rather regrets 'abandoning' railway modelling in favour of restoring 'classic' cars; especially as an old Range Rover, a big Jag, a Rover 2.5 and an E Type lie mouldering in his garage! Well, the E Type's a runner, and worth something - but the others? 

 

Who knows, he might just come back into the fold. If he gets rid of all those old cars, he'll have plenty of space to build another model railway! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

57 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I agree that the livery on the Hornby cars is not great. It's mainly the umber that is too dark. That aside, I think the models are very good.

 

The other issue with the Hornby models is that I don't think they have done 1950s liveries on the 8-wheel cars. They are either in an older style with "THIRD CLASS" on the Thirds or are in the simplified livery with the later emblem that is post-1960 or thereabouts.

Good evening again Robert,

 

Two of the 1st Class (named) 1928 cars from Hornby are in my 'Yorkshire Pullman', with the 'squarer' Pullman emblem (seen earlier).

 

All I did was take the bodies off and add curtains (pre-War Pullmans had blinds), and paint the kitchen window's inside white. I also painted the roofs dark grey (in place of the rather unrealistic white - two journeys between Kings Cross/Glasgow return would have soon changed that in reality) and added weathering. 

 

I think some of Retford's Pullman cars still carry 'Third Class Car', or did when I took pictures of them. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[robertcwp]

34 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening again Robert,

 

Two of the 1st Class (named) 1928 cars from Hornby are in my 'Yorkshire Pullman', with the 'squarer' Pullman emblem (seen earlier).

 

All I did was take the bodies off and add curtains (pre-War Pullmans had blinds), and paint the kitchen window's inside white. I also painted the roofs dark grey (in place of the rather unrealistic white - two journeys between Kings Cross/Glasgow return would have soon changed that in reality) and added weathering. 

 

I think some of Retford's Pullman cars still carry 'Third Class Car', or did when I took pictures of them. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Only the Queen of Scots, which is all Hornby. Geoff Kent did the Yorkshire Pullman and the Tees-Tyne is ex-Gamston Bank on loan from Geoff West. The latter two are rebuilds of older Hornby cars. I believe Geoff Kent hand painted the emblems on the YP. 

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Only the Queen of Scots, which is all Hornby. Geoff Kent did the Yorkshire Pullman and the Tees-Tyne is ex-Gamston Bank on loan from Geoff West. The latter two are rebuilds of older Hornby cars. I believe Geoff Kent hand painted the emblems on the YP. 

Good morning Robert,

 

Geoff Kent's 'Yorkshire Pullman' was one of the first trains I photographed on Retford; in a barn opposite Roy Jackson's house near the Trent along from Walkerith. Roy used to hire it from a local farmer for the summer in order to build Retford (he also hired a disused chapel at Morton for the same purpose, neither sites being big enough to take Retford complete). We just set the rake up behind an A1 and I snapped away. 

 

The whole train was remarkable, especially for its time; all older Hornby cars altered/rebuilt/etc, to make the different diagrams using Plastikard, with everything hand-painted. It's still outstanding.

 

I don't think I've photographed it since; a job for the next time I visit..................

 

Regards,

 

Tony

[gr.king]

On 19/01/2023 at 10:49, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Graeme,

 

In fairness, the picture is at least half as big again as the real thing. 

 

I think what many 'modellers' forget is that they are in a minority in this hobby. Well over 90% of RTR models (in my experience) are sold to those who just like to 'run trains', often on trackwork which is laid on the floor, picked-up, re-laid again, or fixed to boards in a 'not very well' fashion'. The RTR manufacturers have to cater for this (in all scales and gauges); can you imagine the uproar if RTR stuff fell off all the time? No, the RTR bods cannot win. 

 

Anyway, if overscale flanges and chunky valve gear offend (the latter often used as a device for picking-up models!), then these can be replaced/altered by the 'modeller'. On the (very) few RTR OO steam-outline locos I've got, the first thing I do (if appropriate) is to replace the bogie/pony wheels with 'proper' ones'. Some time ago, I 'thinned-down' the valve gear on a Bachmann A4, with startling results. 

 

One question to finish, if I may? Could you (or any other 'normal' human being) match the quality of the livery? I know I couldn't!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony,

 

Looking at the same points that you make, from a different angle, I'd say that the very fact that in order to suit "casual/inexpert users" the flange sizes and "delicate bits" have to increase disproportionately in size as the scales get smaller, means that in those smaller scales only the really "finescale" versions can be regarded as reasonable models. That puts the so-far visible versions of Hornby's TT120 models firmly in the toy league, as opposed to being proper models. The body details and decoration may be nice, ignoring the strange combination of chimney, dome and cab heights on the so-called Flying Scotsman, but the pizza-cutter wheel flanges and bomb-proof joints in the valve gear are closer to Triang-Hornby early 1970s (or Lima 1980s) standards than to any of the (long overdue) new-generation refined OO models of the last couple of decades. I suspect I've even seen slightly more convincing wheels on the some of the best recent N gauge RTR items. Given that the suppliers of after-market chassis upgrade parts for "thriving" and well-established 4mm scale seem to be growing ever thinner on the ground and less willing to take risks (such as attendance at shows), I'm not expecting to see a rush of new offerings of finescale chassis upgrade kits for totally un-proven UK TT120. A modeller wishing to make improvements would therefore have a lot of sourcing, improvisation and building from scratch to do.

Purely as toy trains therefore, Hornby TT120 items are okay, but they are of no interest or value to me, as I like to at least try to think of myself as a semi-serious modeller. I'm much too deeply into OO anyway, so starting again in another scale is out of the question. Neither time nor budget would even begin to allow such a change.

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by gr.king

[t-b-g]

4 hours ago, gr.king said:

Thanks Tony,

 

Looking at the same points that you make, from a different angle, I'd say that the very fact that in order to suit "casual/inexpert users" the flange sizes and "delicate bits" have to increase disproportionately in size as the scales get smaller, means that in those smaller scales only the real "finescale" versions can be regarded as reasonable models. That puts the so-far visible versions of Hornby's TT120 models firmly in the toy league, as opposed to being proper models. The body details and decoration may be nice, ignoring the strange combination of chimney, dome and cab heights on the so-called Flying Scotsman, but the pizza-cutter wheel flanges and bomb-proof joints in the valve gear are closer to Triang-Hornby early 1970s (or Lima 1980s) standards than to any of the (long overdue) new-generation refined OO models of the last couple of decades. I suspect I've even seen slightly more convincing wheels on the some of the best recent N gauge RTR items. Given that the suppliers of after-market chassis upgrade parts for "thriving" and well-established 4mm scale seem to be growing ever thinner on the ground and less willing to take risks (such as attendance at shows), I'm not expecting to see a rush of new offerings of finescale chassis upgrade kits for totally un-proven UK TT120. A modeller wishing to make improvements would therefore have a lot of sourcing, improvisation and building from scratch to do.

Purely as toy trains therefore, Hornby TT120 items are okay, but they are of no interest or value to me, as I like to at least try to think of myself as a semi-serious modeller. I'm much too deeply into OO anyway, so starting again in another scale is out of the question. Neither time nor budget would even begin to allow such a change.

 

 

I tend to agree with you on that. The new range seems to me to be a mix of "correct scale" in terms of track gauge but "toy train set" in terms of track and wheel standards. There is a danger that it falls between two stools and doesn't really please either.

 

The very limited range available makes it pretty much impossible to build a realistic layout so even if there was an after market "upgrade" facility to replace the wheels and track, then it would still be difficult to build a layout with any sort of prototypical balance of locos and stock.

 

I have been tempted once or twice to have a look at some 3mm modelling, using 14.2mm track. At least there is a decent range of kits and parts available and a society that caters for the needs of modellers. It may even happen one day when all the other projects are out of my system.

 

I saw one of the London Road J6 models built up in 3mm scale and I was very impressed.

Edited January 20, 2023 by t-b-g
To add content

[MikeParkin65]

4 hours ago, gr.king said:

Thanks Tony,

 

Looking at the same points that you make, from a different angle, I'd say that the very fact that in order to suit "casual/inexpert users" the flange sizes and "delicate bits" have to increase disproportionately in size as the scales get smaller, means that in those smaller scales only the real "finescale" versions can be regarded as reasonable models. That puts the so-far visible versions of Hornby's TT120 models firmly in the toy league, as opposed to being proper models. The body details and decoration may be nice, ignoring the strange combination of chimney, dome and cab heights on the so-called Flying Scotsman, but the pizza-cutter wheel flanges and bomb-proof joints in the valve gear are closer to Triang-Hornby early 1970s (or Lima 1980s) standards than to any of the (long overdue) new-generation refined OO models of the last couple of decades. I suspect I've even seen slightly more convincing wheels on the some of the best recent N gauge RTR items. Given that the suppliers of after-market chassis upgrade parts for "thriving" and well-established 4mm scale seem to be growing ever thinner on the ground and less willing to take risks (such as attendance at shows), I'm not expecting to see a rush of new offerings of finescale chassis upgrade kits for totally un-proven UK TT120. A modeller wishing to make improvements would therefore have a lot of sourcing, improvisation and building from scratch to do.

Purely as toy trains therefore, Hornby TT120 items are okay, but they are of no interest or value to me, as I like to at least try to think of myself as a semi-serious modeller. I'm much too deeply into OO anyway, so starting again in another scale is out of the question. Neither time nor budget would even begin to allow such a change.

 

The merits of this Hornby venture have been, in fact still are being discussed at very great length on the Hornby thread.

 

I think as current modelers we are missing the point. We're not the target audience, Hornby are trying to tap in to a new market and I think very deliberately have chosen a scale and gauge combination that doesnt have wide existing support in an attempt to lock the new customers into Hornby for the long term.  As for the heavy enginneering approach I think that 'robustness' is factored in to appeal to the less experienced.

 

The range is small at the moment but there is a lot planned in the (free) catalogue that Hornby are giving away and at the moment you can join their 'Collectors Club' for nothing and be kept abreast of current and future developments. A lot of us have joined for this  reason alone I think. 

 

If TT120 takes off then perhaps an after market will develop to support any demand to refine the rtr product but I think thats several years hence.