Wright writes.....

[Jesse Sim]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Jesse,

 

I think it's been explained rather well. 

 

I regard words as 'tools'; the more you have at your disposal, the more things you can describe.

 

For instance - from the evidence over the weekend, Yorkshire folk are not parsimonious; neither are they pusillanimous...........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I completely agree regarding the photosynthesis. 

[gr.king]

On 10/02/2023 at 14:13, Bucoops said:

 

For someone who was VERY sceptical about 3D printed parts I seem to have been thoroughly converted...

 

I limit my enthusiasm to only the very best examples, and that standard is not achieved by many. They are only ever as good as the humans involved, the quality of equipment, the material chosen, and the selected methods...

Edited February 13, 2023 by gr.king
Clarification

[Barry O]

7 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

You popping in before I leave? 

When do you go??

[Clearwater]

3 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

I limit my enthusiasm to only the very best examples, and that standard is not achieved by many. They are only ever as good as the humans, the quality of equipment, the material chosen, and the selected methods...

 

Isn't that true of any modelling medium whether it is photo etches for brass kits, masters for castings etc etc?

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Following Saturday's discussion at Doncaster, the mysterious "SR" loco body which someone bought for £3 appears to have been an LCDR (as I suspected) 0-4-4T, class A or A1.

Thanks Mike,

 

Since it came from Mike Radford's collection, I thought it must be SR in origin, and certainly scratch-built. 

 

Who built it, I have no idea. It might have been Mike himself (many years ago), though he won't have any idea now; dementia takes so much away! 

 

The Jamieson Remembrance and the pair of Jamieson Schools proved to be of interest (all sold, by the way). Yesterday, Bob Treacher (ex of EAMES of Reading, and latterly Alton Models) visited the show and he confirmed they were Jamieson kits (in the case of the N15X, a hand-cut one). Which suggests that they were all at least 60 years old - maybe even from the late-'50s. An interesting modelling time; one where self-reliance and a real skill-set were necessities for any modeller to create something worthwhile. Not a time of RTR-reliance, though certainly a time for 'chequebook' modellers who couldn't make things like Jamieson kits for themselves. EAMES used to build Jamieson kits on commission. Exley's name was also mentioned; models for the well-off. 

 

Mike's models raised over £600.00, with just one carriage left. Unfortunately, that won't buy too much time in a nursing home! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Jesse Sim]

4 hours ago, Barry O said:

When do you go??

2nd of March

[Tony Wright]

Mention of Jamieson made me look through my photo collection...........

 

 

My first Jamieson kit-build; a B1, now approaching 50 years of age. Very basic, though a good starting point.

 

 

A Jamieson kit for a J39 was contained in this box (though how a D9 qualifies for the illustration is open to question). This dated from Jamieson's Cornwall days. It must have been 20 years old when I bought it second-hand........

 

 

And then made it, years ago.

 

 

It's in company with another Jamieson J39, sold on behalf of a bereaved family. 

 

Still in the Liskeard days, but no pretentions on the box lid. This is a kit for a K1 (actually, the K1/1). The instructions are 'basic'.

 

 

During the EAMES days, the boxes became more-useful for containing what will be the finished loco; in this case, a 'Lord Nelson'. 

 

 

In 1976, I ordered a Jamieson hand-cut kit for an A2/1, building it as DUKE OF ROTHESAY. Despite its costing me £27.00 (what's that in today's money?), it came supplied with a six-wheeled tender. It tows a much-altered Wills eight-wheeler. At least the painting is my work. 

 

 

I built/painted this Jamieson V2 well over 40 years ago.

 

And, I still build them!

 

 

Paired (temporarily) with a Bachmann RTR tender.

 

 

Until I built a metal one, and then Geoff Haynes painted the lot. This loco now sees service on Grantham.

 

 

I built another for myself at the same time.

 

 

Which Ian Rathbone painted.

 

I still have another to build!

 

Are such models up to the current RTR standard? I really don't care, and, since I don't have a Bachmann V2, I have no direct means of comparison. 

 

 

Brian Lee built this Jamieson Stanier Mogul many years ago. 

 

 

Someone brought along this Jamieson J6 (does anyone remember?).

 

 

This pair came from the estate of a deceased modeller.

 

 

As did this. I think Graham Nicholas has it now, and the two above.

 

 

This is what a Jamieson hand-cut kit looks like; in this case for an Ivatt 4MT 'Flying Pig'.

 

Note the price on the (stamped-out) valve gear parts - an indication of its age - nineteen shillings and ninepence, plus three bob purchase tax! 

 

The 'instructions' suggest consulting the Roche drawing!

 

There's no doubt that all the above are obsolete, but they're fascinating models to me.

 

I'm rather cross with myself; I should have photographed the Jamieson Schools and Remembrance models I had last week! 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[polybear]

10 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

In 1976, I ordered a Jamieson hand-cut kit for an A2/1, building it as DUKE OF ROTHESAY. Despite its costing me £27.00 (what's that in today's money?),

 

The BoE inflation calculator shows that to be £160 in today's money.

[micknich2003]

Tony, and as to be expected nice work.  Your 1976 buy, would in theory today cost you £269.73p.

[micknich2003]

8 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

The BoE inflation calculator shows that to be £160 in today's money.

 Interesting to see your source quotes an approx hundred quid difference, on reflection I suggest your source is far more accurate then mine.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, micknich2003 said:

 Interesting to see your source quotes an approx hundred quid difference, on reflection I suggest your source is far more accurate then mine.

I'm not so sure, Mick.

 

I don't know how to find out these things, but a Jamieson hand-cut kit was a lot more-expensive than a standard one. 

 

It's hard to find a current equivalent (impossible, because there isn't one), but, say, a DJH LNER Pacific kit costs a lot more than £160.00 today.

 

I remember at the time, I was astonished at how much the kit cost me. I was just as astonished at how much Kings Cross Models charged me for the bespoke nameplates for 60508!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[uax6]

It does make you wonder how many of this kits are still knocking around unmade. I've got a Jamieson kit for a Caley Jumbo in the pile. And then there is the Jidenco/Falcon Brass kits for HR classes in the pile too. Interestingly these are also in boxes that are no use for storing the finished locos in.....

When the FB kits were still available, they were still expensive kits for what you got, the best bits being the castings that came with them...

 

Andy G

 

 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, uax6 said:

It does make you wonder how many of this kits are still knocking around unmade. I've got a Jamieson kit for a Caley Jumbo in the pile. And then there is the Jidenco/Falcon Brass kits for HR classes in the pile too. Interestingly these are also in boxes that are no use for storing the finished locos in.....

When the FB kits were still available, they were still expensive kits for what you got, the best bits being the castings that came with them...

 

Andy G

 

 

Good morning Andy,

 

I have no 'concrete' evidence as to how many kits are still knocking around un-made (4mm, here). I can only cite what kit-manufacturers have suggested to me down the years. In the case of South Eastern Finecast, Dave Ellis (when he was the proprietor) suspected that over 90% of the loco kits he sold were never built; and, of the percentage that were started/built, well over 50% were never completed to a 'high-standard', especially with regard to the running. I suspect that DJH has a similar percentage. Most of this has nothing to do with poor products - just the ambition being greater than the ability of the builders, exacerbated by those 'failing', choosing far too complex kits to start with - the 'glamour' ones, with lots of wheels and (often) outside valve gear!

 

Dave once suggested to me an 'amnesty', where part-started kits were returned (for a modest price) to be melted-down again to produce new kits; a kind of re-cycling model scrapyard. 

 

My own evidence supports this view over the last few years; 'mountains' of un-built kits to find new homes for, and (often poorly-running to start with) loads of kit-built locos to sell on behalf of distressed/bereaved families (the only exception being the late Paul Bromige's work). 

 

Mo and I sold over a thousand pounds worth of this kind of stuff at Doncaster over the weekend. I'd got what were non-/poor-runners working (as well as I could with over-50 years old locos fitted with XO4 motors, simple Romford gears and mazak-tyred Romfords on one side) and checked the un-built kits beforehand (I wonder how long they'll remain un-built?). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

There is a difference between people buying kits that they don't make (a similar activity to buying tens or even hundreds of models - usually locos - that stay in boxes on shelves or in display cabinets) or attempting to successfully build an a kit. In the later case people have varying degrees of skill and/or acceptable standards. 

 

I wonder to what extent skill sharing happens in many clubs, or for the apparent majority of modellers who go it alone, through media. While online videos and to a minor degree articles in the modelling magazines can be seen as providing the information, nothing is better IMO than one to one (or one to a few) guidance and mentoring. Demos at shows help, but once the modeller returns home they are on their own again. I also find written and illustrated work (even on forums) more useful than videos as it is easier to refer back to specific points. 

 

If someone produces a model that runs badly, where can they look for guidance on sorting it out? Ask a question on RMWeb for example and you'll get a dozen different answers, leaving you possibly more confused. Being a member of a small, like minded, group of fellow modellers can be a help. This is something that local Area Groups of the national Societies can provide.

 

People also have different standards, especially in relation to fit and finish. Many of the kit built carriages and wagons offered for sale on eBay are evidence of this. If modellers had more access to "teaching" would that also raise their standards, if they knew how to create better models, use different materials and techniques, etc?

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Jol Wilkinson
Spelling

[St Enodoc]

12 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

There is a difference between people buying kits that they don't make (a similar activity to buying tens or even hundreds of models - usually locos - that stay in boxes on shelves or in display cabinets) or attempting to successfully build an a kit.

Well, I've got lots of loco, carriage and wagon kits on my shelves, some of which have been there for over 20 years. I WILL build them one day though - promise!

[Andy Hayter]

I have ticked agree @St Enodoc but in reality some have been on the shelf rather longer than 20 years.  The days of being cash rich and time poor.

[t-b-g]

Part of the reason for stashes of unbuilt kits is that with a few honourable exceptions, they come onto the market, stay for a short while then they can vanish, so you have to search out second hand ones.

 

My theory is that if I see something that I might want sometime, or even a kit for a prototype that I may never really have anywhere to run but I like anyway, I buy it when I see it as I may not get another chance. If I don't build it I can always sell it on, hopefully for more than I paid for it.

 

Then, times move on and better kits come out, or even better RTR models. So my BEC D11 and Ivatt 4MT will remain untouched, although I do get urges once in a while to tackle the Millholme B5 to see if it can be turned into a half decent model!

 

I took the bits out of the box a while ago and quickly put them back when I tried to fit some of them together. I didn't get as far as straightening the footplate casting.

[Clearwater]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

There is a difference between people buying kits that they don't make (a similar activity to buying tens or even hundreds of models - usually locos - that stay in boxes on shelves or in display cabinets) or attempting to successfully build an a kit. In the later case people have varying degrees of skill and/or acceptable standards. 

 

I wonder to what extent skill sharing happens in many clubs, or for the apparent majority of modellers who go it alone, through media. While online videos and to a minor degree articles in the modelling magazines can be seen as providing the information, nothing is better IMO than one to one (or one to a few) guidance and mentoring. Demos at shows help, but once the modeller returns home they are on their own again. I also find written and illustrated work (even on forums) more useful than videos as it is easier to refer back to specific points. 

 

If someone produces a model that runs badly, where can they look for guidance on sorting it out? Ask a question on RMWeb for example and you'll get a dozen different answers, leaving you possible more confused. Being a member of a small, like minded, group of fellow modellers can be a help. This is something that local Area Groups of the national Societies can provide.

 

People also have different standards, especially in relation to fit and finish. Many of the kit built carriages and wagons offered for sale on eBay are evidence of this. If modellers had more access to "teaching" would that also raise their standards, if they new how to create better models, use different materials and techniques, etc?

 

 

 

 

 

I think it depends on an individual's learning style.  Personally I find old black and white magazines or books with poor/low resolutions pictures next to useless.  Hence I was grateful Tony posted his stage by stage pictures a week or so ago.  Equally, his Making Tracks video is fantastic for seeing each stage in as close to a demonstrator as possible.  Whilst I've had some (excellent) tuition with Tony, I've not done a MIssenden Course.  I would at some point because its by doing that you learn and develop your own method.  If there's one thing I've learnt reading this thread is that there isn't always a single right way of doing things.  Different people can get similar results through different methods albeit there are some common themes.

 

On hoarding, I own more kits than I've built but I too am 'cash rich time poor.'  So why buy?  Some of these kits are long out of production so if I see what I want for sale, I'll buy it and hold it.  eg a Great Bear kit.  If something, eg the Nucast Aberdare, is reissued, I'll buy because I don't know when it'll become unavailable again.  

 

The final thing I've learnt from here is to have a vision on what you ultimately want from a model.  That gives you focus and clarity of mind.  I have a layout in mind.  Perhaps it'll never get built but each day I learn a tit bit or two from this thread or elsewhere and it gets stored away.

 

David

[Sandhole]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

There is a difference between people buying kits that they don't make (a similar activity to buying tens or even hundreds of models - usually locos - that stay in boxes on shelves or in display cabinets) or attempting to successfully build an a kit. In the later case people have varying degrees of skill and/or acceptable standards. 

 

I wonder to what extent skill sharing happens in many clubs, or for the apparent majority of modellers who go it alone, through media. While online videos and to a minor degree articles in the modelling magazines can be seen as providing the information, nothing is better IMO than one to one (or one to a few) guidance and mentoring. Demos at shows help, but once the modeller returns home they are on their own again. I also find written and illustrated work (even on forums) more useful than videos as it is easier to refer back to specific points. 

 

If someone produces a model that runs badly, where can they look for guidance on sorting it out? Ask a question on RMWeb for example and you'll get a dozen different answers, leaving you possible more confused. Being a member of a small, like minded, group of fellow modellers can be a help. This is something that local Area Groups of the national Societies can provide.

 

People also have different standards, especially in relation to fit and finish. Many of the kit built carriages and wagons offered for sale on eBay are evidence of this. If modellers had more access to "teaching" would that also raise their standards, if they new how to create better models, use different materials and techniques, etc?

 

 

 

 

I have a great and dear Friend who has taught me a lot about kit construction.
Coach Bogie is my Obi Wan. We have been Friends for over 40 years. I have been a willing sponge for the information he and his late Dad passed on.
I know how lucky I am, he has given me loads of encouragement.
Thanks Mike.
Chris.

[CF MRC]

There are an overwhelming  number of ‘how to’ videos on YouTube some of which can be very informative. The disappointing thing is when they take so long to show very little. 
 

I think a series of staged photos can be just as informative and there is no doubt that camera phones have revolutionised this aspect of ‘how to’.  It’s very tempting to just show what you’ve made at the end of a session, but the steps along the way will probably help people rather more - it’s what I try to do with my 2mm stuff on RMWeb . 
 

Having taught at Missenden for many years, I would say that the ethos is to give people the confidence to get on with their modelling and to achieve finishes on components that they didn’t realise they could achieve.  Tony & I also work on the Lazarus principle with some of the kit builds that are presented. 

 

It’s also jolly good fun helping fellow modellers on their way…

 

Tim
 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by CF MRC

[t-b-g]

I was lucky to have some super mentors in my early modelling days. I didn't always copy what they did exactly and I often developed my own ways of doing things but they taught me the philosophy of having a go and not being too worried about making mistakes. 40 years later and it tends to be me doing the mentoring.

 

I still feel a bit of "imposter syndrome" at Missenden as I know many people who can do what I do at least as well as me (if not better) but it is really very satisfying to be able to help and guide people, most of whom, as Tim mentions, need a confidence boost more than anything. There are one or two regulars who have probably reached the peak of their abilities and I usually offer them the option of "Would you like me to show you how to tackle the job or would you like me to do it for you?", knowing very well that the answer will be the latter.

 

For most, once you have shown or explained the techniques to adopt, they are away and only need further help when some major problem crops up. Sadly, with many kits, that happens rather too often.

[uax6]

In my bodging threads, I take photos as I go, so that you can see what I'm doing at each stage. I have to say I've not updated them for a couple of years (the black dog has affected my modelling in that time, but I'm beginning to come out of it, and hopefully I'll be able to update things (and probably re-load the photos).

 

The lack of step by step photo teaching is one of the big problems with kit building, if you are a tyro to it, you can easily become stuck when things don't quite work out, but not yet have the skills to work around the issue. I'm no expert, but by photoing each step I hoped it sort of showed how I bodged around things and pushed myself to get better...

 

Andy G

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I was lucky to have some super mentors in my early modelling days. I didn't always copy what they did exactly and I often developed my own ways of doing things but they taught me the philosophy of having a go and not being too worried about making mistakes. 40 years later and it tends to be me doing the mentoring.

 

I still feel a bit of "imposter syndrome" at Missenden as I know many people who can do what I do at least as well as me (if not better) but it is really very satisfying to be able to help and guide people, most of whom, as Tim mentions, need a confidence boost more than anything. There are one or two regulars who have probably reached the peak of their abilities and I usually offer them the option of "Would you like me to show you how to tackle the job or would you like me to do it for you?", knowing very well that the answer will be the latter.

 

For most, once you have shown or explained the techniques to adopt, they are away and only need further help when some major problem crops up. Sadly, with many kits, that happens rather too often.

Good afternoon Tony,

 

My Missenden memories include asking one brilliant modeller why he attended my group. His answer was simple; 'No dog to walk, no sponging children, no gardening to do and no shopping. And, most-important, no mobile phone!'. He was building a loco, the like of which I'd never emulate, even if I carried on modelling into the next century. He came along because it gave him a weekend's uninterrupted modelling, and why not? 

 

Several returned year after year, providing, beyond doubt, the proof (in equal quantities) that my teaching abilities were the same as their learning abilities; namely poor! 

 

One chap at a summer school asked me to help him make pick-ups. I showed him my method (not the only way, I know); he tried it and failed. I showed him again, and his next attempt was even worse. After yet another show & try, I took his model off him and fitted the pick-ups myself. The loco then ran sweetly. At the end of the week's course, when questions/observations were invited, he complained that he had come on the course to do things for himself, not have Tony Wright do it for him. I wished him a dangerous journey home! 

 

One bloke 'halved' the drivers, meaning that their cranks were at 180 degrees opposite to each other. I didn't notice immediately, and wasted hours puzzling why the wretched loco didn't run properly. The moral? Never assume any pupil knows anything!

 

I think the biggest 'buzz' was having someone bring along a loco to build, and, by the end of the course they'd got a sweet-running chassis. Nothing seemed to beat that. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[Tony Wright]

Since folk seem to like step-by-step constructional pictures, the following show my building of a DJH Austerity, some 14 years ago. They should be axiomatic.........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Part of the reason for stashes of unbuilt kits is that with a few honourable exceptions, they come onto the market, stay for a short while then they can vanish, so you have to search out second hand ones.

 

My theory is that if I see something that I might want sometime, or even a kit for a prototype that I may never really have anywhere to run but I like anyway, I buy it when I see it as I may not get another chance. If I don't build it I can always sell it on, hopefully for more than I paid for it.

 

Then, times move on and better kits come out, or even better RTR models. So my BEC D11 and Ivatt 4MT will remain untouched, although I do get urges once in a while to tackle the Millholme B5 to see if it can be turned into a half decent model!

 

I took the bits out of the box a while ago and quickly put them back when I tried to fit some of them together. I didn't get as far as straightening the footplate casting.

I've looked through my photographic library of models, Tony, and it would seem I've never pointed my camera at a B5. 

 

I have, however, managed to get some shots of other ex-GC 4-6-0s, including..........

 

 

A B2.

 

 

A B3.

 

 

A B8.

 

 

And a B9. 

 

Does anyone out there have pictures to fill the gaps, please?

 

Regards,

 

Tony.