Wright writes.....

[zr2498]

So that is why today's date was blocked out of the NYMR booking page!

Good job I was looking for a train ride, and walk back tomorrow 🙂

 

Dave

 

 

 

[john new]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening John,

 

Is this the set the G5 was hauling?

 

 

 

If so, the rainstrip is there on the middle car, but it's not as distinct (a shortage of the right size of Microstrip at the time it was built?). 

 

LNER carriage drawings? LNER Standard Gresley Carriages by Michael Harris (Mallard Books, 1998) is a useful source, but it's woefully short regarding roof detail (and underframe detail as well). Historic Carriage Drawings Volume One, LNER Constituents by Nick Campling (Pendragon, 1997) is also of use, but both books are long out of print.

 

The best source of LNER carriage drawings is the range provided by Isinglass. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

Yes, that's the one. Just watched the YouTube video again and now concur it is just visible on the middle coach in some angles but not others. My poor eyesight the first time around.

 

Thanks for the answer.  I will see about getting some Isinglass drawings. I have the Harris, and Vol 1 of the Ian Allan carriage drawings. 

 

[robertcwp]

8 hours ago, kingfisher24 said:

Ohh while I’m on here…

 

Tony 

 

I am looking to make up a representation of the Queen of Scot’s circa 1958/9 before the mk1 pullmans made an appearance. Members of my club are looking to make a model of Edinburgh St Margaret’s, well the running shed side at least, with the main lines running around the front of the depot and the north side of the lines left to the imagination….

I already have the Elizabethan but the Q.o.S did pass the depot and it would be something different in amongst the blood and custard and or maroon stock. Plus I know it can be a relatively short rake which would keep the pennies and pounds happy, and the wife too!
I’ve seen and remember that you have a rake on Little Bytham. Could you possibly pass on a list of stock which would be suitable. 

many thanks 

 

Gary 

From the Summer 1958 East Coast carriage workings:

[Tony Wright]

12 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

From the Summer 1958 East Coast carriage workings:

Thanks Robert,

 

The BR document I used was dated June 1958, and it's different.

 

Interesting.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

Same here, my first ventures into trying to improve RTR were down to Richard Gardner's articles, which always seemed to approach the subject in an entertaining and encouraging manner. 

What sticks in my mind is that his RTR detailing procedure was so progressive, so if you only dared to do the first item like shave that line off, add the steps here, remove that coupling, add the crew, you still could feel like you'd made that first step which built your confidence.  So you did the second step then on another loco, then the first three and so on.

[robertcwp]

13 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

The BR document I used was dated June 1958, and it's different.

 

Interesting.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Perhaps things changed after the carriage working books had gone to print. This is what is in the GN Main Line book for the Summer of 1958:

 

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Chas,

 

I built it from an etched brass Chivers kit (unavailable now, as far as I know).

 

 

It's rather basic (there are no triangular body supports on the solebars), and I've an idea I built the brake gear as supplied, which is probably incorrect. I think there should be a central, longitudinal bodyside strip as well.

 

It runs at the head of a York/Hull-Kings Cross express........

 

 

Here's one (I think) being marshalled at York in 1958/'59. 

 

Non-passenger four-wheeled/six-wheeled or bogie stock was quite common at the front or rear of an express in ECML BR steam days (as it was in BR blue/grey days). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Thanks Tony - I think I actually have one (a fairly vintage etched Chivers one) in my stash but I didn't recognise it in the photo.

 

That's a sign that your stash is getting too large, isn't it, when you forget what's there?!

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

It's odd; I do the necessary research (or as much as I can) when building a model, then promptly forget all about it.

 

I think that's a natural and healthy way the brain has of managing data. Things we need to retain, we lodge in long-term memory (our names, how to drive a car and so on) but things we only need to know while we're working on something are discarded to make way for new information.

You do occasionally meet people who seem to have truly exceptionally retentive memories and they'll tell you what they had for breakfast every day since April 1974, but for the rest of us, it's a question of priorities.

[kingfisher24]

7 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Gary,

 

You'll need a seven-car rake for the 'Queen of Scots' in Scotland in the summer of 1958 (except on Saturdays, when it was made up to eight). The consist for the Up train (leaving Glasgow Queen Street at 11.00 am) was Second Brake, Second Kitchen, First Parlour, First Kitchen, First Kitchen, Second Parlour and Second Brake - seven cars in total. Two further cars were added at Leeds, a First Kitchen and a Second Parlour. The set reversed at Leeds, though the pair of Leeds-only cars were always at the front, in both Up and Down trains. All these types have been available from Hornby in the past, but I'm told that the 1928 all-steel types (which the train was mainly made up of) are now as rare as hens' teeth and very expensive! 

 

The number of cars in the rakes varied with each passing seasonal timetable - more usually, it was eight cars in Scotland and ten between Leeds and London. The consist altered, too. In 1959, the two Leeds-only cars were both Kitchens, First and Second respectively. 

 

I've modelled the set as ten cars; appropriate for Little Bytham. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I built this train getting on for 30 years ago from a combination of Hornby donors, Comet sides and MJT bogies and fittings. Ian Rathbone painted the lot. I also made the loco (which he, too, painted). I made a couple of the cars to be pre-1928 types, wooden-bodied but clad in aluminium, with curved roof rainstrips and angle trussing. 

 

You mention mental health in a previous post; something I can speak of from personal experience! At times when the 'Black Dog' has 'bitten' me, I've been unable to do any modelling. However, once its 'grip' is loosened, and I return to making things (even though it's incredibly difficult to start with), then the benefits of having a constructional hobby are revealed, and good mental health is restored.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

Tony

 

Thank you for the information on the pullmans. I have had a look and I see what you mean about the prices for even the older pullmans never mind the newer tooling. I have seen an older Hornby train pack of the Q.o.S which may be a starting point. 
 

Gary

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Perhaps things changed after the carriage working books had gone to print. This is what is in the GN Main Line book for the Summer of 1958:

 

Thanks Robert,

 

I've just had a 'lightbulb' moment (I don't get many these days!). 

 

I've checked through my CWNs again, and they've somehow got muddled up (not difficult for me!). Mine are all loose photocopies, including the covers. Somehow, the cover for the summer 1958 workings has managed to get in front of a later year! I should have guessed, because at some point in the late-'50s the format changed from portrait to landscape. I was, thus, reading off this.............

 

 

Which is the information I gave to Gary (Kingfisher). 

 

Now, I'm stuffed, because I don't know which year this is from. It's the winter timetable, but when? Do you know when the format changed, please? Since I didn't collect any CWNs later than 1961, I imagine this might be from 1960 (still with original Pullman cars). Do you know, please?

 

If Gary is reading this, then I advise him to follow your document (which means eight cars passing St. Margaret's). Or, follow mine and assume it's 1959/'60. 

 

The above illustrates (clearly to me) how diligent 'one' must be in keeping accurate records, and, just as important, interpreting them. Folk ask for information/advice, and it should be given correctly; something I've failed to do on this occasion! 

 

I take some little heart (not much) in knowing that the CWNs represent an 'ideal', and on the operating railway, that is not always achieved. Several of my photocopies have hand-written alterations/amendments on them, and photographic evidence can often be contradictory. Looking back through some old Railway Observers (assuming train make-ups are correctly identified in these), there are frequent contradictions. 

 

When I modelled my QoS, I used an appropriate CWN and, more importantly, prototype photographs (it was getting on for 30 years ago, so the memory crumbles!). I'll look to see which ones they were.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[St Enodoc]

20 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

I've just had a 'lightbulb' moment (I don't get many these days!). 

 

I've checked through my CWNs again, and they've somehow got muddled up (not difficult for me!). Mine are all loose photocopies, including the covers. Somehow, the cover for the summer 1958 workings has managed to get in front of a later year! I should have guessed, because at some point in the late-'50s the format changed from portrait to landscape. I was, thus, reading off this.............

 

 

Which is the information I gave to Gary (Kingfisher). 

 

Now, I'm stuffed, because I don't know which year this is from. It's the winter timetable, but when? Do you know when the format changed, please? Since I didn't collect any CWNs later than 1961, I imagine this might be from 1960 (still with original Pullman cars). Do you know, please?

 

If Gary is reading this, then I advise him to follow your document (which means eight cars passing St. Margaret's). Or, follow mine and assume it's 1959/'60. 

 

The above illustrates (clearly to me) how diligent 'one' must be in keeping accurate records, and, just as important, interpreting them. Folk ask for information/advice, and it should be given correctly; something I've failed to do on this occasion! 

 

I take some little heart (not much) in knowing that the CWNs represent an 'ideal', and on the operating railway, that is not always achieved. Several of my photocopies have hand-written alterations/amendments on them, and photographic evidence can often be contradictory. Looking back through some old Railway Observers (assuming train make-ups are correctly identified in these), there are frequent contradictions. 

 

When I modelled my QoS, I used an appropriate CWN and, more importantly, prototype photographs (it was getting on for 30 years ago, so the memory crumbles!). I'll look to see which ones they were.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

I would guess that 15/16/18 April was the Easter weekend, so probably 1960.

 

https://www.dr-mikes-math-games-for-kids.com/easter-date-tables.html?century=20

[Tony Wright]

7 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

I would guess that 15/16/18 April was the Easter weekend, so probably 1960.

 

https://www.dr-mikes-math-games-for-kids.com/easter-date-tables.html?century=20

Thanks John,

 

A touch of the Sherlock Holmes there!

 

Which means the cars are still old-style Pullmans, since the Mk.1 cars were not introduced on to the QoS until April, 1961.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

One or two Pullman shots.......

 

 

60148 on the Down 'Queen of Scots' approaching Retford in the late-'50s. It might even be the summer '58 consist, since both the Leeds-only cars are kitchens (I think it's a trick of the light which suggests that these two cars are still in the original Pullman 'white' livery). The full, ten-car rake is apparent.

 

For those who only have space for eight-car Pullmans...........

 

 

 

Why not model the 'Harrogate Sunday Pullman'? 

 

This was the same stock as used in the weekday 'Queen of Scots', but with two cars removed from the main body of the train; meaning the two Leeds-only cars worked as normal, but the other six cars only went as far as Harrogate.  

 

Close inspection reveals that these cars are not the same; in the first picture, the leading car is a Parlour Second, and in the second view it's a Parlour First; just one kitchen car being needed for Leeds during this time. In the first picture, both cars are pre-1928, and in the second picture the leading car dates from 1928 (note absence of trussing).  

 

Despite the prominence/prestige of the service, Copley Hill hasn't bothered much in cleaning its charges.....................

 

 

By 1961, the Mk.1 cars were in the train (but the old brakes were still retained, giving an awkward overall look). The Leeds-only cars would appear to be a Parlour Second and Kitchen First. 

 

Something must have happened to the final, old-style Parlour Brake Second, because a Mk.1 BG has been substituted; which means a further Pullman car has been added to retain seating capacity. 

 

With 34A locos now working the train, cleanliness has improved. 

 

What was said earlier? 'Interpretation of photographs is key'. I hope my interpretations of these images (the copyright on which must be respected, please) are 'correct'. 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Dunsignalling]

I wouldn't have thought Easter (April) fell into the Summer timetable period back in 1958.

 

I don't have any documentation of the period, but a start date in May/June keeps popping into my head. From the example in Tony's post above, I'd suggest maybe 13th June?

 

I recall that some high-season services, scheduled reliefs, and variations on the SR and WR didn't kick in until the schools broke up in July. 

 

John

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Tony Wright]

43 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I wouldn't have thought Easter (April) fell into the Summer timetable period back in 1958.

 

I don't have any documentation of the period, but a start date in May/June keeps popping into my head. From the example in Tony's post above, I'd suggest maybe 13th June?

 

I recall that some high-season services, scheduled reliefs, and variations on the SR and WR didn't kick in until the schools broke up in July. 

 

John

 

 

Good morning John,

 

I did state that it was the winter timetable in a post above.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[thegreenhowards]

The other issue when considering pre Mk 1 ECML Pullman trains is the mix of all steel and earlier vehicles. The all steel Pullmans were originally built in 1928 for the QoS, but later spread around a bit. However the train was still formed with a majority of all steel Pullmans with, typically, 2 or 3 earlier ones. They can normally be identified on photos by the prominent underframe trussing which is absent on the all steel cars. For example the first two vehicles in Tony’s photo of 60117 are earlier vehicles.

 

The Anthony Ford series of Pullman car books has some example formations from observation in the back. This is what I used to form up my QoS which has three pre 1928 cars. 
 

Hornby do both types of car, but their pre 1928 cars only represent 5 typical cars and there were a lot of variations on window positioning etc. which means some cut and shut to create some of the cars if you want to be pedantic.

 

Andy

[Dunsignalling]

19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning John,

 

I did state that it was the winter timetable in a post above.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Sorry for the misinterpretation, I've just read it for the third time.

 

I'd completely missed the December dates! 🙃

Edited June 13, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Tony Wright]

3 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

The other issue when considering pre Mk 1 ECML Pullman trains is the mix of all steel and earlier vehicles. The all steel Pullmans were originally built in 1928 for the QoS, but later spread around a bit. However the train was still formed with a majority of all steel Pullmans with, typically, 2 or 3 earlier ones. They can normally be identified on photos by the prominent underframe trussing which is absent on the all steel cars. For example the first two vehicles in Tony’s photo of 60117 are earlier vehicles.

 

The Anthony Ford series of Pullman car books has some example formations from observation in the back. This is what I used to form up my QoS which has three pre 1928 cars. 
 

Hornby do both types of car, but their pre 1928 cars only represent 5 typical cars and there were a lot of variations on window positioning etc. which means some cut and shut to create some of the cars if you want to be pedantic.

 

Andy

Good morning Andy,

 

It's also worth noting that there were still some older cars with match-boarding still apparent in ECML Pullman formations, even into the late-'50s. Most of these types (pre-1928) had had the match-boarding covered over by aluminium sheeting in BR days (presenting a more-modern appearance), but they retained their angle trussing.

 

Speaking of Hornby's pre-1928 cars, I modified six of these to form my 'Master Cutler'.......

 

 

 

Modifications included some detailing, concertina gangways, new couplings and some light weathering. However, I didn't go as far as altering the basic models, so I doubt if all the cars are correct.

 

Tom Wright's very-altered Lima EE type 4 is the motive power. 

 

This service was introduced to the ECML in September 1958, utilising some spare, older Pullmans from the Southern Region. It was hauled by the then brand new EE Type 4s. In 1960, it became the first of the Pullmans to get the Mk.1 cars (though some were damaged in a siding side-swipe!). 

 

When we ran the train on Stoke Summit...........

 

 

 

We made-up the set from a mixture of my Pullman conversions (painted by Ian Rathbone) and Dave Lewis' own Southern Pride kits (based on a prototype photograph). 

 

Tony Geary's much-altered Lima EE Type 4 provides the motive power; I wonder what happened to it? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

Little Bytham has four Pullman trains - the 'Queen of Scots' and the 'Master Cutler' recently mentioned, plus the 'Yorkshire Pullman' and the 'Tees-Tyne Pullman'. In the case of the first-mentioned, two different sets would be needed for true authenticity (both sharing the Leeds-only pair), but I only have one. 

 

With regard to the 'Yorkshire Pullman'..........

 

 

 

This 11-car rake is made up of...........

 

 

Modified older Hornby all-steel cars, all with MJT bogies and some with Comet brass sides (painted by Ian Rathbone).

 

 

And modified Hornby later all-steel cars (the types now difficult to obtain). Modifications include the addition of curtains and weathering.

 

Roof-mounted boards are from Ian Wilson's Pacific Models range.  

 

A3s occasionally worked the 'Yorkshire Pullman'.................

 

 

As seen here at Little Bytham (apologies for the grotty image, but it's a copy of a copy).

 

A view I tried to replicate early on............

 

 

With little success!

 

My 'Tees-Tyne Pullman'............

 

 

Is made-up from modified Hornby brakes and modified Bachmann Mk.1 types. Despite weathering, the differences in colour are all too apparent. Anyway, this set is anomalous for 1958, but Rule1 applies. 

 

Ian Wilson also supplied the small boards fixed to the brake ends. These were only carried after the Mk.1 cars were introduced, presumably there being no means of fixing the train's name to those cars? 

 

 

In earlier BR days, it was all made-up of older Pullman cars (mostly pre-1928), probably some still with matchboard sides. 

 

Though it's unlikely that Pullmans would have passed each other at Little Bytham...........

 

 

I think this early view presents a pleasing picture.......................

 

 

 

 

[robertcwp]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

I've just had a 'lightbulb' moment (I don't get many these days!). 

 

I've checked through my CWNs again, and they've somehow got muddled up (not difficult for me!). Mine are all loose photocopies, including the covers. Somehow, the cover for the summer 1958 workings has managed to get in front of a later year! I should have guessed, because at some point in the late-'50s the format changed from portrait to landscape. I was, thus, reading off this.............

 

 

Which is the information I gave to Gary (Kingfisher). 

 

Now, I'm stuffed, because I don't know which year this is from. It's the winter timetable, but when? Do you know when the format changed, please? Since I didn't collect any CWNs later than 1961, I imagine this might be from 1960 (still with original Pullman cars). Do you know, please?

 

If Gary is reading this, then I advise him to follow your document (which means eight cars passing St. Margaret's). Or, follow mine and assume it's 1959/'60. 

 

The above illustrates (clearly to me) how diligent 'one' must be in keeping accurate records, and, just as important, interpreting them. Folk ask for information/advice, and it should be given correctly; something I've failed to do on this occasion! 

 

I take some little heart (not much) in knowing that the CWNs represent an 'ideal', and on the operating railway, that is not always achieved. Several of my photocopies have hand-written alterations/amendments on them, and photographic evidence can often be contradictory. Looking back through some old Railway Observers (assuming train make-ups are correctly identified in these), there are frequent contradictions. 

 

When I modelled my QoS, I used an appropriate CWN and, more importantly, prototype photographs (it was getting on for 30 years ago, so the memory crumbles!). I'll look to see which ones they were.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

I can confirm that your extract was from the Winter 1959-60 book. 

 

So far as I am aware, the East Coast books were all Landscape at least from Nationalisation until Winter 1964-5. All the ones I have are in that format. The GN Main Line books were all portrait. From the Summer 1965 timetable, the two books were merged into one portrait format book.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

The other issue when considering pre Mk 1 ECML Pullman trains is the mix of all steel and earlier vehicles. The all steel Pullmans were originally built in 1928 for the QoS, but later spread around a bit. However the train was still formed with a majority of all steel Pullmans with, typically, 2 or 3 earlier ones. They can normally be identified on photos by the prominent underframe trussing which is absent on the all steel cars. For example the first two vehicles in Tony’s photo of 60117 are earlier vehicles.

 

The Anthony Ford series of Pullman car books has some example formations from observation in the back. This is what I used to form up my QoS which has three pre 1928 cars. 
 

Hornby do both types of car, but their pre 1928 cars only represent 5 typical cars and there were a lot of variations on window positioning etc. which means some cut and shut to create some of the cars if you want to be pedantic.

 

Andy

Good morning again Andy,

 

Do you have shots of your QoS rake, please?

 

I don't think it's one I photographed on LB.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Willie Whizz]

11 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

I think that's a natural and healthy way the brain has of managing data. Things we need to retain, we lodge in long-term memory (our names, how to drive a car and so on) but things we only need to know while we're working on something are discarded to make way for new information.

You do occasionally meet people who seem to have truly exceptionally retentive memories and they'll tell you what they had for breakfast every day since April 1974, but for the rest of us, it's a question of priorities.

Working for a bank in the last quarter of the last century, we had no less than eight thick red rexine ring-binder “Books of Instruction”; one for each main subject area (A for Advances; F for Foreign Business; P for Personnel and so on). Every month a pile of “Updates” arrived and had to be inserted by a responsible officer, which often took a couple of hours. 
 

It was quite impossible to memorise everything one might need to know to do the jobs, especially as in those days a Branch was like an old-style GP Practice, you had to be capable of dealing with anything that came up without running to Head Office every time (which would get you a bad reputation). Plus your memory wouldn’t help if something had changed while you were on holiday …

 

The answer was not even to TRY to remember it all; but to remember first that there WAS “something to know”, and secondly “where to look”. It’s an approach I still use today with all my railway stuff. 

[john new]

1 hour ago, Willie Whizz said:

Working for a bank in the last quarter of the last century, we had no less than eight thick red rexine ring-binder “Books of Instruction”; one for each main subject area (A for Advances; F for Foreign Business; P for Personnel and so on). Every month a pile of “Updates” arrived and had to be inserted by a responsible officer, which often took a couple of hours. 
 

It was quite impossible to memorise everything one might need to know to do the jobs, especially as in those days a Branch was like an old-style GP Practice, you had to be capable of dealing with anything that came up without running to Head Office every time (which would get you a bad reputation). Plus your memory wouldn’t help if something had changed while you were on holiday …

 

The answer was not even to TRY to remember it all; but to remember first that there WAS “something to know”, and secondly “where to look”. It’s an approach I still use today with all my railway stuff. 

Fully concur. Knowing where to look and how to filter the answers to sort the wheat from the chaff is key. It is the failing of exam systems, there should be a key paper asking students where to look, how to trust answers. That is as valid in our hobby research as in the business and academic world.

[Barry Ten]

Here are a few shots showing progress on Paynestown, my valleys terminus project in N. It's a nice holiday from 4mm - in fact, a bit too tempting!

 

 

 

 

best,

 

Al

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, john new said:

It is the failing of exam systems, there should be a key paper asking students where to look, how to trust answers.

 

Spot on - our education system requires us to commit huge amounts of data to memory, and judges our competence purely on our ability to do this.

 

In the work environment, making critical judgements purely on the basis of memory would often be judged as foolhardy and irresponsible.

 

I am convinced that huge numbers of perfectly competent workers are denied entry to their ideal careers, purely because they - for whatever reason - are unable to regurgitate data by rote under exam conditions.

 

CJI.