Wright writes.....

[Buhar]

I'm intrigued by the crimson lamps on 6202.  I always thought LMS lamps were black with the exception of the blue on the blue Coronations.  I could envisage the red streamliners also having matching lamps but an ordinary red engine?  I know this is usually the centre for LNER and ER issues, but knowledge is often widespread.

 

Alan   

[Ian Rathbone]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I agree about the train, Mike,

 

Though it looks as if the loco is still fitted with the original small turbine for running in reverse.

 

 

 

The later-fitted reverse turbine was considerably bigger (coincidental with the fitting of deflectors, and being painted black?). 

 

Perhaps the test in question proved that the reverse turbine needed increasing in size, but that still doesn't explain the weird arrangement of the lamps.

 

I have to say (despite the fixed lamps), I think these are outstanding models. Certainly far better than anything I could build in equivalence and definitely superior with regard to the painting. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

The turbines were impellers rather than fans and were mounted on horizontal cross shafts within the housings which resemble cylinder covers. The increase in size made no difference to the external appearance. What did change was the increase in size of the steam delivery pipe work, necessitating a much larger casing on the boiler side.

 

 

A scratch built live steam Turbomotive built by John Henshaw in 7mm scale. Sorry, it’s not a turbine but it’s driven by four double acting cylinders giving 16 beats to the revolution.

 

Ian R

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Barry O said:

So, my turbo motive tender light is now off.. I followed the Hornby destructions to do so. I can turn off the loco headlamps by either removing the connections to the LED or.. a bit more brutal, by using a pair of cutters to remove aforesaid lamps. I have not tried adding the extra lamp (for the top of the smoke box door supplied in the add on goodies bag) but the destruction say it too will come on...

 

I don't have a problem with the lamps..  the loco is superb and with the movable oil radiator open.. it looks the part.

 

My biggest problem are the back to backs. They are all over the place.

 

Baz

 

Are the lamps actually the right shape and size? Those on the new Rapido B Set most certainly are not, which in IMHO makes them look ridiculous on such a fine-looking model - that at about GBP70 a coach doesn't seem to be aimed at the toy market.

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I recall reading somewhere that an express would serve "principal" stations and that an "ordinary train" could call at "secondary" stations but I am sure people who know the rules and regulations better than I do will know more.

 

I presume Grandborough Junction is classed as a secondary station as many Class 1 passenger trains (in the Buckingham timetable there are no expresses, they are called "semi-fasts") rattle through without stopping.

 

Presumably the same applies to non passenger workings.

 

My common sense tells me that a loaded cattle train would get a higher priority due to the nature of the load, requiring food, water and general looking after. Maybe that isn't the case.

Just quoting your post, Tony, as it's the most recent of many.

 

At the risk of over-simplification, the essence of the different train classes is that they correspond to the speed that the train can run, which is governed by the traction and brake force available. These average speeds are used to determine the timings for the working timetable.

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

 

My common sense tells me that a loaded cattle train would get a higher priority due to the nature of the load, requiring food, water and general looking after. Maybe that isn't the case.

 

 

That would certainly be the case, and I think fitted goods trains including livestock were treated likewise.

 

Cattle traffic had ceased long before my time on the "big railway", but I remember being told that such trains were only signalled thus when loaded; when empty, they would be signalled using the appropriate goods train codes.

 

John

[Tony Wright]

Some more thoughts on train lamps............

 

Don't always assume that lamps were always carried correctly.....

 

 

This K1 displays the correct code for running light engine, in reverse.

 

 

Yet, this O2/3 (also running in reverse) has its lamp positioned for running light engine, forwards! 

 

Both were taken at Retford in the early-'60s, so maybe 'station limits' local codes were in use.

 

I have two light engine movements in Little Bytham's operating sequence. In the two views below............

 

 

 

A light engine C12 is correctly lamped-up, as it's passed by two Class B stoppers (which also carry the correct codes). 

 

I'm often puzzled by different lamp positions denoting (what appears to be) exactly the same type of train.......

 

 

In this view, taken just north of Grantham, this Austerity has empty iron ore wagons under a Class F code.

 

Yet..........

 

 

At High Dyke, the same type of train is running under a Class J status. 

 

Any type of unfitted minerals (empty or full) seem to carry these codes. 

 

Which............

 

 

 

I've replicated on Little Bytham (the leading wagon is fitted).

 

The most common code for unfitted minerals, empty or full............

 

 

Seems to be Class H.

 

Which................

 

 

I've also replicated on LB. 

 

Please observe copyright restrictions on the prototype images. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

Going back in time..............

 

 

 

 

Getting on for 200 years ago!

 

Hornby's latest Liverpool & Manchester Rly releases.

 

Rather attractive, I think................

 

 

[Erichill16]

They’d really need a bit of weathering!

[Barry Ten]

And then there were Somerset & Dorset lamp codes, which were their own thing entirely, right through to BR days.

[65179]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Some more thoughts on train lamps............

 

Don't always assume that lamps were always carried correctly.....

 

 

This K1 displays the correct code for running light engine, in reverse.

 

 

Yet, this O2/3 (also running in reverse) has its lamp positioned for running light engine, forwards! 

 

Both were taken at Retford in the early-'60s, so maybe 'station limits' local codes were in use.

 

I have two light engine movements in Little Bytham's operating sequence. In the two views below............

 

 

 

A light engine C12 is correctly lamped-up, as it's passed by two Class B stoppers (which also carry the correct codes). 

 

I'm often puzzled by different lamp positions denoting (what appears to be) exactly the same type of train.......

 

 

In this view, taken just north of Grantham, this Austerity has empty iron ore wagons under a Class F code.

 

Yet..........

 

 

At High Dyke, the same type of train is running under a Class J status. 

 

Any type of unfitted minerals (empty or full) seem to carry these codes. 

 

Which............

 

 

 

I've replicated on Little Bytham (the leading wagon is fitted).

 

The most common code for unfitted minerals, empty or full............

 

 

Seems to be Class H.

 

Which................

 

 

I've also replicated on LB. 

 

Please observe copyright restrictions on the prototype images. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lamps and whether they were positioned properly has cropped up on RMWeb a few times in the past. For example @LMS2968 made the following comment:

 

"By the way, dropping the head - and tail - lamp over the nearest buffer instead of correctly in the middle for a Class G (light engine) move was common everywhere: it was easier and saved going on to the four foot. A loco dropping into a station to work an express would have a lamp over one buffer as its tail lamp, and on coupling to the stock the other side lamp iron would become occupied..."

 

on this thread:

 

Simon

Edited October 24, 2023 by 65179

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Going back in time..............

 

 

 

 

Getting on for 200 years ago!

 

Hornby's latest Liverpool & Manchester Rly releases.

 

Rather attractive, I think................

 

 

 

I would like to see the pictorial evidence on which these are based.

 

CJI.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

I would like to see the pictorial evidence on which these are based.

 

CJI.

Good afternoon John,

 

It certainly wouldn't be photographic; not in 1829. Drawings/paintings, then? 

 

I must admit to not having a clue. They are attractive, and very attractively packaged, though as for accuracy...........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry Ten]

38 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon John,

 

It certainly wouldn't be photographic; not in 1829. Drawings/paintings, then? 

 

I must admit to not having a clue. They are attractive, and very attractively packaged, though as for accuracy...........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Depending on what you make of Sam's Trains' Youtube channel, there's a piece by him where he looks at the wagons and attempts to assess their accuracy based on engravings of typical trains of the period.

 

From what I remember, the horse and cattle wagons are much too long/tall, being stretched to fit on the existing carriage chassis, and the open wagons are just the existing Rocket tender and also unrepresentative. I don't always agree with Sam's reviews but in this case I think he made pretty persuasive points, finding the models to be unrealistic, expensive and poorly-provided with animals.

[Tony Teague]

On 23/10/2023 at 10:03, MJI said:

I suppose the next thing will be a loud speaker playing the theme to Thomas the Tank Engine.

 

Or, with AI becoming increasingly clever, perhaps a trainset that you can switch on and leave to "play with itself"?

 

[ROY@34F]

9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Some more thoughts on train lamps............

 

Don't always assume that lamps were always carried correctly.....

 

 

This K1 displays the correct code for running light engine, in reverse.

 

 

Yet, this O2/3 (also running in reverse) has its lamp positioned for running light engine, forwards! 

 

Both were taken at Retford in the early-'60s, so maybe 'station limits' local codes were in use.

 

I have two light engine movements in Little Bytham's operating sequence. In the two views below............

 

 

 

A light engine C12 is correctly lamped-up, as it's passed by two Class B stoppers (which also carry the correct codes). 

 

I'm often puzzled by different lamp positions denoting (what appears to be) exactly the same type of train.......

 

 

In this view, taken just north of Grantham, this Austerity has empty iron ore wagons under a Class F code.

 

Yet..........

 

 

At High Dyke, the same type of train is running under a Class J status. 

 

Any type of unfitted minerals (empty or full) seem to carry these codes. 

 

Which............

 

 

 

I've replicated on Little Bytham (the leading wagon is fitted).

 

The most common code for unfitted minerals, empty or full............

 

 

Seems to be Class H.

 

Which................

 

 

I've also replicated on LB. 

 

Please observe copyright restrictions on the prototype images. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good evening Tony . In my experience , as I remember . If in station limits or even just light engine up to Highdyke , so long as there was a lamp on each end it didn't matter where . This also applied up the Stainby branch where there would be a lamp left on each end of the engine even with a train attached  ! . If going any distance light engine of course there must be a lamp in the middle at the front and anywhere on the back .  Class "H" lamps was for loose coupled goods not calling anywhere en route , as in the iron ore trains from Highdyke to Frodingham . The class "F" (lamps at chimney and left buffer) also known as no. 4 speed , was for loose coupled goods , and we always used that on the iron ore empties . But also on most other loose coupled mixed goods . Speeds were about 30 or 35 I reckon for all unfitted trains . of course open lights express speed just limited to local line speeds , as was local pass. with on e lamp only at the chimney  , and also no. 1 speed with lamps at right buffer and middle position , used for fully piped trains of goods or empty coaching stock . No. 2 and three speeds were for partially piped trains (lamps on chimney and in the middle (No.2) and middle and left buffer(No.3) . 

    Hope this is of interest and I have got it right in may old age (haha)

           Regards , Roy .

[john new]

4 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

 

Or, with AI becoming increasingly clever, perhaps a trainset that you can switch on and leave to "play with itself"?

 

You jest, but a former club member (now deceased) when web cams and then cameras small enough to mount on a wagon came in he always boasted he could get the train to run on the layout in the attic and watch it on TV downstairs. Personally I never visited his home (so cannot say if it is true) but the web cam aspect would have been plausible.

[Peter Eaton]

12 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

and the open wagons are just the existing Rocket tender and also unrepresentative. 

So I can see coming a wagon with 2 ale  barrels on ?

[LNER4479]

17 hours ago, cctransuk said:

I would like to see the pictorial evidence on which these are based.

 

16 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 certainly wouldn't be photographic; not in 1829. Drawings/paintings, then? 

 

I must admit to not having a clue.

There are some well-known prints based on contemporary drawings / sketches of the new L&M when it first opened (the wonder of the age). Those new wagons look suspiciously like one of the vehicles in the third train below. Clearly, carriage of livestock dates from the earliest days of railways (cattle to market in Manchester?)

 

[Tony Wright]

37 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

 

There are some well-known prints based on contemporary drawings / sketches of the new L&M when it first opened (the wonder of the age). Those new wagons look suspiciously like one of the vehicles in the third train below. Clearly, carriage of livestock dates from the earliest days of railways (cattle to market in Manchester?)

 

Thanks Graham,

 

It does............ A bit.

 

 

I don't think anyone will regard these as 'scale' models; perhaps just 'attractive' little items in their own right, to complement existing ranges? 

 

The horse is a bit 'rubbery', and won't stand up without a dab of superglue.

 

The first part of the instructions appears to have been written by a character from Star Wars!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[coronach]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Graham,

 

It does............ A bit.

 

 

I don't think anyone will regard these as 'scale' models; perhaps just 'attractive' little items in their own right, to complement existing ranges? 

 

The horse is a bit 'rubbery', and won't stand up without a dab of superglue.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

I once came across a horse like that!

[cctransuk]

38 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

 

There are some well-known prints based on contemporary drawings / sketches of the new L&M when it first opened (the wonder of the age). Those new wagons look suspiciously like one of the vehicles in the third train below. Clearly, carriage of livestock dates from the earliest days of railways (cattle to market in Manchester?)

 

 

I had this image at the back of my mind when I posted above.

 

The Hornby interpretations, somehow, fail to convince - probably over-length.

 

CJI.

[Barry Ten]

54 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Graham,

 

It does............ A bit.

 

 

 

The horse is a bit 'rubbery', and won't stand up without a dab of superglue.

 

 

 

 

 

Not even Mr 'Erriot could save that horse.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

I had this image at the back of my mind when I posted above.

 

The Hornby interpretations, somehow, fail to convince - probably over-length.

 

CJI.

 

These seem to hark back to the Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang practices of the 1950s; stretching or shrinking the wagon body to fit an existing chassis...

 

I really think Hornby should have moved beyond that by now.

 

John

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

Not even Mr 'Erriot could save that horse.

Probably not Al,

 

There's an interesting piece in the latest issue of Railway Bylines relating to the retirement of a railway horse (called Prince) in 1964, at Stoke on Trent. He then travelled by rail to Peterborough for a well-earned retirement at Abbots Ripton. The Hornby horse looks nothing like him. 

 

From anecdotal evidence provided by the 'Bytham gang' (all, sadly, now deceased), there used to be a shunting horse at Little Bytham as late as the mid-'50s. 

 

 

Its stable was what had been the engine house for Lord Willoughby's private railway.

 

Ian Wilson scratch-built the model, seen here very early in Bytham's construction. 

 

 

A later (but still relatively early) view shows it relation to its surroundings. 

 

 

As does this aspect.

 

 

And, much later, it's seen just above the middle wagons of this rake being shunted.

 

 

And, the real thing. 

 

It lasted longer than the station, but not as long as the goods shed, though all the site to the right is now occupied by four new houses.

 

I did have a model shunting horse on Bytham once. I have no idea who built it, but it consisted of a powered 12T van, with a horse sticking out from one end attached by a piece of flexible wire. It didn't work!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Tony Wright
typo error

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

These seem to hark back to the Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang practices of the 1950s; stretching or shrinking the wagon body to fit an existing chassis...

 

I really think Hornby should have moved beyond that by now.

 

John

 

The addiction to cheapo solutions is a very hard one to 'kick'- like more noxious addictions, the effects are evident even after the primary cause has been removed!

 

CJI.