Wright writes.....

[Mark Laidlay]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Interesting to note that World of Railways has just announced Heljan's latest steam-outline loco in OO; the U1 LNER Garratt, 2-8-0-0-8-2.

 

I

 

Has anyone got a picture of one, please? 

 

I've known about the new Heljan U1 for some little time, and have helped in a tiny way with the project so far. 

 

 

Weirdly I have one.  As a lover of Garratts I couldn't resist building one.  It has two big RG4 in it and a bit of extra weight.  It's 1.5kg (99% on the driven wheels) and has won a few loco power contests and no train has ever slowed it down.  All that power doesn't help with the retention of detail, hitting a platform at H0 clearances will result in damage to the platform and/or loco, it won't stop the loco.  

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mark Laidlay

[mattingleycustom]

At last a model of an SR U1 ... oh no my mistake, it's that great big LNER U1.

 

Oh well, I shall continue to wait (im)patiently.

 

Glenn

[sandra]

 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Interesting to note that World of Railways has just announced Heljan's latest steam-outline loco in OO; the U1 LNER Garratt, 2-8-0-0-8-2.

 

It'll complement the firm's LMS Garratt, introduced some years ago........

 

 

Seen here (in modified/weathered form) on LB some years ago.

 

I don't have a picture to hand of a 4mm U1, though I did build one from a DJH kit for a customer several years ago. 

 

Has anyone got a picture of one, please? 

 

I've known about the new Heljan U1 for some little time, and have helped in a tiny way with the project so far. 

 

 

Hello Tony,

 

I realise that this is probably not what you meant but it is a U1, albeit a Maunsell U1.

I built this some years ago from a DJH kit. It’s not really suitable for Andover Junction but rather surprisingly I have found three photos of these locomotives near Andover.

It is an example of a locomotive fitted with a decoder but where the body is live. It still needs a front number plate and southern headcode discs fitted. 
 

Sandra

[LNER4479]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Interesting to note that World of Railways has just announced Heljan's latest steam-outline loco in OO; the U1 LNER Garratt, 2-8-0-0-8-2. I don't have a picture to hand of a 4mm U1, though I did build one from a DJH kit for a customer several years ago. 

 

Has anyone got a picture of one, please? 

 

I've known about the new Heljan U1 for some little time, and have helped in a tiny way with the project so far. 

 

 

Hello Tony.

 

Mark Allatt's LNER Garratt did make one brief run on Grantham in its very early years. Lovely looking model; unfortunately, would only go in a straight line! Some aspects of the model were obviously 'live' and it shorted as soon as one of the engine units came into contact with the boiler unit round a curve! Unsurprisingly (to those who know him), he's ordered a Heljan one ...

 

 

Talking of Grantham's early days, can you believe it's over 13 years since you took your first pictures of the layout?

 

[teaky]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Interesting to note that World of Railways has just announced Heljan's latest steam-outline loco in OO; the U1 LNER Garratt, 2-8-0-0-8-2.

 

It'll complement the firm's LMS Garratt, introduced some years ago........

 

 

Seen here (in modified/weathered form) on LB some years ago.

 

I don't have a picture to hand of a 4mm U1, though I did build one from a DJH kit for a customer several years ago. 

 

Has anyone got a picture of one, please? 

 

I've known about the new Heljan U1 for some little time, and have helped in a tiny way with the project so far. 

 

 

A DJH U1.  In need of a little fettling and requires a little additional detailing.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by teaky

[Tony Wright]

Some more reasons to visit the York Show next Easter...........

 

 

 

 

Jeff Day's Sanford and Banwell in P4.

 

 

 

 

Bob Dawson and Scott Waterfield's architectural modelling.

 

 

And to see Mike Edge's loco building (a detailed/improved PDK B16/2, built by Mike, painted by me and weathered by Tom Foster). 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Hello Tony.

 

Mark Allatt's LNER Garratt did make one brief run on Grantham in its very early years. Lovely looking model; unfortunately, would only go in a straight line! Some aspects of the model were obviously 'live' and it shorted as soon as one of the engine units came into contact with the boiler unit round a curve! Unsurprisingly (to those who know him), he's ordered a Heljan one ...

 

 

Talking of Grantham's early days, can you believe it's over 13 years since you took your first pictures of the layout?

 

Was it really that long ago, Graham?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In rather more cramped surroundings than its current home. Even then, the potential for a 'modern classic' was evident. 

 

Did you abandon the idea of the cenotaph coaling stage? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Jamiel]

On the subject of recreating a specific time for a railway location, I did my Master’s in Film dissertation on that subject.
 

Here is an animation of the build for one of the shots combining shoots at Pickering Station and York Station with stills, model shots and stock images. I didn’t know at the time that the ends to the station roof were replaced in the 60’s, and repainting the colour of the end roofs would have been far too much work given the time for the work.

 

https://www.jamielochhead.co.uk/jpegs/Trains/StationBuildv01.mp4
 

You might have to click the link for the video, it is on my website, not a video sharing site. I would be happy for someone to PM me so that I can insert a video, if it can be done. Here are a couple of stills from the clip.

The luggage is also far too close to the edge of the platform and its perspective need a bit of tuning, but its function is to hide the people’s feet which I couldn’t remove. Obviously a film shoot would have a clear platform and no one taking flash photos of the train, I didn’t have that luxury. For a limited budget, I feel it was pretty successful, and in terms of the research it worked very well.

 

I was aiming for York Station in 1957, I made 3 versions all with different inaccuracies, and then got feedback from a focus group of people, some from this forum, some from model rail clubs, family and fellow students of different ages on the course.

 

I also interviewed the Visual Effects Supervisors of ‘Band of Brothers’, the second ‘Nanny McPhee’ film and the pre viz lead for ‘Hugo’.

 

My conclusion was that it wasn’t so much how accurate you can be, but who the film (or models in the case of this thread and forum) or work is aimed at. If the audience is yourself, then rule 1 applies, but beyond that I feel it is mainly a case of trying to satisfy your perceived audience.

 

For the ‘Nanny McPhee and the Big Bang’ the Visual Effects supervisor was asked to create London in the 1940’s as seen by a child, lots of barrage balloons and sandbags, not many bombed out buildings. For ‘Band of Brothers’ the production strived for as much accuracy as possible given they were representing a very important time in the lives of people still living. They even built a replica Tiger Tank, but I think it has one too few wheels at the side given the tank it was converted from, but when shot in the series that was not apparent.

 

For my short piece, I found that even people who knew York station well did not pick up on some things. The only people who picked up on the semaphore signals being out of time (changed to light signals about 1951 for the East Coast Main Line around York I think) were those who had built a model of another ECML station set in the early 50’s. Most people, me included, missed the wooden roof ends.

 

I know that this forum has a great deal of knowledge and so work shown here is presumably aimed at experts, but I think when you start to get to that level of knowledge it is impossible to please everyone.

 

Personally, I think that getting a feel for things is what I am aiming for, and that allows for a degree of flexibility. Generally, people expect to see semaphore signals alongside steam trains, regional coloured station signs, and similarly for other periods. There was no one day when all steam locos, semaphore signals and red coaches disappeared, but in terms of feel there are certain things that fit well together.

 

I suspect it is just the same for experts in any field, if you watch ‘Downton Abbey’ with an antiques expert I am sure they could find plates that were not made in that specific time, similarly for costume, or any of a number of departments. Both films (and TV) and modellers do their best, but ultimately there will always be some suspension of disbelief.

 

I am building (very slowly) a layout set in a fictional location, so I do respect that those building a real location and at a specific time are aiming for something more demanding that I might set for myself.

Edit: Here is a link to one of the 3 versions of the full piece, 1.11 mins, each had different inaccuracies for the research, plus those I made anyway.

https://www.jamielochhead.co.uk/York1957/York1957Blue.mov

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Jamiel

[60027Merlin]

Regarding Garratts here are some photos of the Heljan LMS one taken in 2015 when a friend gave it to me for weathering. A few years later he sold a lot of his collection and I have no idea where this model is now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BMacdermott]

10 minutes ago, Jamiel said:

I suspect it is just the same for experts in any field, if you watch ‘Downton Abbey’ with an antiques expert I am sure they could find plates that were not made in that specific time, similarly for costume, or any of a number of departments.

 

Hello Jamiel

 

Fully agree there!

 

I come from the printing industry and have lost count of how many times I have seen counterfeit gangs 'printing £10 notes' on a printing machine that would struggle to cope with the average business card!

 

Aviation has similar anomalies - I have seen a film where a pilot flying mid-Atlantic was speaking directly to an air traffic controller in Heathrow Tower!🙂

 

My wife had much to do with horses in her younger days. Whenever you see a horse in a film, they seem obliged to make it 'whinny' - never happens in real life like that.

 

As you say, there will always be someone who spots these things.

 

Brian

[Northmoor]

38 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

As you say, there will always be someone who spots these things.

 

The divide is between people who point out the mistake to be helpful and those who are desperate to show that they know more than you and everyone else.  It's the difference between pulling someone up to your level or kicking them off your pedestal.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Jamiel

 

Fully agree there!

 

I come from the printing industry and have lost count of how many times I have seen counterfeit gangs 'printing £10 notes' on a printing machine that would struggle to cope with the average business card!

 

Aviation has similar anomalies - I have seen a film where a pilot flying mid-Atlantic was speaking directly to an air traffic controller in Heathrow Tower!🙂

 

My wife had much to do with horses in her younger days. Whenever you see a horse in a film, they seem obliged to make it 'whinny' - never happens in real life like that.

 

As you say, there will always be someone who spots these things.

 

Brian

Good evening Brian,

 

It must be very difficult for film-makers to accurately produce every historical artefact in a given scene representing the past. 

 

However, even when films are shot to represent the time in which they're made, bloopers often occur.

 

One film I enjoy is the second The 39 Steps, with Kenneth More; not a patch on the first one (with Robert Donat) but infinitely superior to the third one (I forget the actor - Robert Powell?). Despite my enjoyment (and I particularly like the ECML scenes as More travels north to Waverley), there are some big railway mistakes. 60027 (departing Waverley) becomes 60012 by the time the Forth Bridge is reached, and how many Mk.1 gangwayed carriages had doors to their compartments? I can live with those bloopers, because the scenes are so evocative. However, how a Ford Mk.2 Zephyr can be become a Mk. 2 Consul is anyone's guess (the car used by the 'baddies'). 

 

Doesn't the latest Dunkirk have Mk.1 carriages in the railway scenes? 

 

As for many other films with shots of railways in them, most seemed to use just stock footage; meaning a traveller leaves Euston on his way to South Devon, and so on.............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Tony Wright
clumsy grammar

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, 60027Merlin said:

Regarding Garratts here are some photos of the Heljan LMS one taken in 2015 when a friend gave it to me for weathering. A few years later he sold a lot of his collection and I have no idea where this model is now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good evening Eric,

 

Very convincing. Thanks for showing us.

 

 

Last year, I had a K's Beyer Garratt for sale on behalf of a widow. It was in LMS condition, but Geoff Haynes changed it into BR guise and weathered it at the request of the purchaser. 

 

Who wanted it to run on his model of York...........

 

 

Beyer Garratts being common on 50A in the '50s.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Arun Sharma]

1 hour ago, Jamiel said:

On the subject of recreating a specific time for a railway location, I did my Master’s in Film dissertation on that subject.
 

Here is an animation of the build for one of the shots combining shoots at Pickering Station and York Station with stills, model shots and stock images. I didn’t know at the time that the ends to the station roof were replaced in the 60’s, and repainting the colour of the end roofs would have been far too much work given the time for the work.

 

https://www.jamielochhead.co.uk/jpegs/Trains/StationBuildv01.mp4
 

You might have to click the link for the video, it is on my website, not a video sharing site. I would be happy for someone to PM me so that I can insert a video, if it can be done. Here are a couple of stills from the clip.

The luggage is also far too close to the edge of the platform and its perspective need a bit of tuning, but its function is to hide the people’s feet which I couldn’t remove. Obviously a film shoot would have a clear platform and no one taking flash photos of the train, I didn’t have that luxury. For a limited budget, I feel it was pretty successful, and in terms of the research it worked very well.

 

I was aiming for York Station in 1957, I made 3 versions all with different inaccuracies, and then got feedback from a focus group of people, some from this forum, some from model rail clubs, family and fellow students of different ages on the course.

 

I also interviewed the Visual Effects Supervisors of ‘Band of Brothers’, the second ‘Nanny McPhee’ film and the pre viz lead for ‘Hugo’.

 

My conclusion was that it wasn’t so much how accurate you can be, but who the film (or models in the case of this thread and forum) or work is aimed at. If the audience is yourself, then rule 1 applies, but beyond that I feel it is manly a case of trying to satisfy your perceived audience.

 

For the ‘Nanny McPhee and the Big Bang’ the Visual Effects supervisor was asked to create London in the 1940’s as seen by a child, lots of barrage balloons and sandbags, not many bombed out buildings. For ‘Band of Brothers’ the production strived for as much accuracy as possible given they were representing a very important time in the lives of people still living. They even built a replica Tiger Tank, but I think it has one to few wheels at the side given the tank it was converted from, but when shot in the series that was not apparent.

 

For my short piece, I found that even people who knew York station well did not pick up on some things. The only people who picked up on the semaphore signals being out of time (changed to light signals about 1951 for the East Coast Main Line around York I think) were those who had built a model of another ECML station set in the early 50’s. Most people, me included, missed the wooden roof ends.

 

I know that this forum has a great deal of knowledge and so work shown here is presumably aimed at experts, but I think when you start to get to that level of knowledge it is impossible to please everyone.

 

Personally, I thank that getting a feel for things is what I am aiming for, and that allows for a degree of flexibility. Generally, people expect to see semaphore signals alongside steam trains, regional coloured station signs, and similarly for other periods. There was no one day when all steam locos, semaphore signals and red coaches disappeared, but in terms of feel there are certain things that fit well together.

 

I suspect it is just the same for experts in any field, if you watch ‘Downton Abbey’ with an antiques expert I am sure they could find plates that were not made in that specific time, similarly for costume, or any of a number of departments. Both films (and TV) and modellers do their best, but ultimately there will always be some suspension of disbelief.

 

I am building (very slowly) a layout set in a fictional location, so I do respect that those building a real location and at a specific time are aiming for something more demanding that I might set for myself.

Edit: Here is a link to one of the 3 versions of the full piece, 1.11 mins, each had different inaccuracies for the research, plus those I made anyway.

https://www.jamielochhead.co.uk/York1957/York1957Blue.mov

 

What a superb piece of artwork!

[Northmoor]

Even the greatest films have bloopers.  In the famous car chase in "Bullitt", McQueen, when following the Mob car down the steep streets of San Francisco, passes the same green VW Beetle three times.

 

As "experts" in our field, we do tend to notice the errors in represntation of railways, so you can only imagine how many errors there might be in the things we know nothing about.....  Recently watching an episode of "Endeavour" where deaths took place around a railway (shot on the Watercress Line and at Quainton Road), there were people getting off steam trains in Oxfordshire in 1967.  Err, said I to the TV, I don't think so...... but that is considered one of the better series for accurate period scene setting.

[MJI]

I have done some more wagon work.

 

LMS hopper reasy for priming, out of bodies now.

 

LMS design van up to final brake gear.

 

GWR 5.5 plank ready for priming.

 

EX SR 5 plank clayliner ready for priming.

 

More wagons IDed for clayliner.

[Michael Edge]

We have two LNER Garratts for Wentworth Junction.

We don't run them together but it's handy to have a spare - one failed on the first day of the Leeds show last year. The one on the nearer track is standard DJH with one motor in the hind unit, built by Andy Ross, the other one I built with a DS10 motor in each end.

The twin motor one on the layout at Barnsley last weekend

[lezz01]

44 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Even the greatest films have bloopers.  In the famous car chase in "Bullitt", McQueen, when following the Mob car down the steep streets of San Francisco, passes the same green VW Beetle three times.

 

As "experts" in our field, we do tend to notice the errors in represntation of railways, so you can only imagine how many errors there might be in the things we know nothing about.....  Recently watching an episode of "Endeavour" where deaths took place around a railway (shot on the Watercress Line and at Quainton Road), there were people getting off steam trains in Oxfordshire in 1967.  Err, said I to the TV, I don't think so...... but that is considered one of the better series for accurate period scene setting.

My own pet hate in this regard is basically anything written by Shakespeare that's called a history. History my eye! What they are is Tudor propaganda! It goes way beyond that as most of our history books support propaganda by some king or queen. The biggest fib is of course that Henry Tudor had any sort of claim to the throne at all and is closely followed by the Princes in the Tower lie. New evidence has come to light that those boys were not killed by Richard III at all. If anyone killed them it was Henry Tudor. Edward V probably died at the Battle of Stoke field in 1487 after being Crowned in Dublin and Richard Duke of York was hanged for treason after he was re captured after escaping custody following a period of living in the court of James IV of Scotland after a second failed invasion. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Regards Lez.           

[Willie Whizz]

Ah, The 39 Steps (1935 version) … one of my All Time Top Five non-musical films, indeed to me second only perhaps to The Prisoner of Zenda (1937), the ultimate swashbuckler, and both starring the incomparably lovely Madeleine Carroll, “West Bromwich’s Finest Export”.
 

 A genuine thriller with some of Hitchcock’s famous unexpected plot twists to push the action along at a cracking pace. And one of most erotic scenes ever filmed with two fully-clothed people … how that ever got by the Censors of the day I’ll never know. 
 

Tony, you are indeed a Gentleman of Taste and Discretion!

[Hollar]

3 hours ago, lezz01 said:

My own pet hate in this regard is basically anything written by Shakespeare that's called a history. History my eye! What they are is Tudor propaganda! It goes way beyond that as most of our history books support propaganda by some king or queen. The biggest fib is of course that Henry Tudor had any sort of claim to the throne at all and is closely followed by the Princes in the Tower lie. New evidence has come to light that those boys were not killed by Richard III at all. If anyone killed them it was Henry Tudor. Edward V probably died at the Battle of Stoke field in 1487 after being Crowned in Dublin and Richard Duke of York was hanged for treason after he was re captured after escaping custody following a period of living in the court of James IV of Scotland after a second failed invasion. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Regards Lez.           

And your point is?  It's art and entertainment.  If you want history, Penn's The Winter King  is as good as you'll find; and if you're looking for tissue-thin entertainment I would much  rather watch Ian McKellen's Richard III than some straight-to-cable Ricardian rubbish.  For one thing, you get Stacey Kent's brilliant singing of a Walter Raleigh song rather than that strange woman and Robert I'll Do It Rinder.

 

Not that I'm an opinionated Bardophile, or anything.

 

Tony

Edited November 19, 2023 by Hollar
Typo

[Clive Mortimore]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Hello Tony.

 

Mark Allatt's LNER Garratt did make one brief run on Grantham in its very early years. Lovely looking model; unfortunately, would only go in a straight line! Some aspects of the model were obviously 'live' and it shorted as soon as one of the engine units came into contact with the boiler unit round a curve! Unsurprisingly (to those who know him), he's ordered a Heljan one ...

 

I am not going to doubt Mark's ability as a model maker,  I am more concerned with the design of the kit. Weren't Garretts designed to be bendy so they could go around 2 radius curves as found in far flung parts of the Empire?

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I am not going to doubt Mark's ability as a model maker,

You should do - he had it built for him😳

[Barry Ten]

7 hours ago, Jamiel said:

On the subject of recreating a specific time for a railway location, I did my Master’s in Film dissertation on that subject.

 

Personally, I think that getting a feel for things is what I am aiming for, and that allows for a degree of flexibility. Generally, people expect to see semaphore signals alongside steam trains, regional coloured station signs, and similarly for other periods. There was no one day when all steam locos, semaphore signals and red coaches disappeared, but in terms of feel there are certain things that fit well together.

 

 

 

Thank you for the download, a very interesting and successful piece I felt. On the subject of period accuracy in films, I think you are right in that it is as much to do with what's expected as to what is strictly accurate. I think I recall that in the film Apollo 13, which is highly accurate in many respects, the computer displays in mission control were made to look slightly more up to date than would have been the case in 1970, because the typical audience member wouldn't have accepted the reality as it was, which would have been mostly just columns of numbers on tiny screens.

[Woodcock29]

U1 - one of the very few kits I built as soon as I got it - in 1983! It really needs renumbering/relettering with HMRS. It has a single RG4M1 in the bunker and will pull anything (sorry should say push!) I want it to.

 

It does get used when we operate the schedule on my layout. It has a dedicated siding just outside the main station on my fictional location on the assumption it gets used as a banker on heavy coal trains. It gets driven across to the loco depot for re-coaling late in the schedule and returned back to its own siding. This necessitates a number of back and forth movements to access  the loco depot on the opposite side of the station.

 

Andrew  

Edited November 20, 2023 by Woodcock29
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[Michael Edge]

I've built a lot of Garratts, here's a few of them. This was the first one, scratchbuilt for myself - not quite any of the UK industrial ones.

Powered both ends (as I always do) it's pictured here at Herculaneum Dock but it runs on Cwmafon.

This LMS Garratt built from a K's kit, the motion looks very clunky now but otherwise the kit isn't bad.

7mm scale NGG16 from the Backwoods kit (Ian Rathbone's photo), definitely not an easy kit to build.

Another Backwoods kit, 4mm EM this time, one of the four UK industrial Garratts, this one for Vivians Copper in Swansea. Painted by Dave Studley and again not very easy to build.

Another NGG16, 4mm this time - curiously the Backwoods kit seemed easier to build in this scale than in 7mm.

This Backwoods kit is an absolute pig to build but it makes a very nice model of the first Garratt with the cylinders inboard. The original now runs on the Welsh Highland with some of the SAR NGG16s.

Mauritius Railways 2-8-8-2 in EM, scratchbuilt with some etched parts.

Painted by Dave Studley