Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, dibber25 said:

If there was a ready-to-run model, this would make a novel limited edition but the fact that it's a non-runner would work against it. In all my time working on Railway World, Steam Days, Steam World etc I never stumbled across these pictures or the story behind them - and Neville Stead (who lived in Hull IIRC) used to send me 'novelty featurettes' (for want of a better description) on an almost weekly basis at one point! (CJL)

It would Chris,

 

And a Thompson Pacific (of any kind) always seems to score highly on wish-list polls for new RTR locos. 

 

Going back to that 'infamous' A3 article, not all which came from it was 'bad'.

 

I think it's a measure of the professionalism both you and Nigel Harris displayed after it was confirmed that I was definitely NOT 'Felstead', by your inviting me over to your headquarters in Peterborough for a full meeting. Instead of dismissing me as a 'know-all', I ended up writing a fair number of articles for you and photographing several layouts for Model Rail. I was particularly pleased how the article on the V2s came out.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[APOLLO]

Not off a Pacific (what was it off ?) but the use of this tender is apparent. Doncaster shed 26 Oct 1968 (over 50 years ago !!!).

 

 

As to boilers, this was in the yard - Spare for Flying Scotsman ?

 

 

Brit15

[jwealleans]

That tender could be from any of hundreds of GN locos - I expect someone will be able to pin it down given that the number is visible.

 

If that is the spare boiler for 4472, it went with the loco to Steamtown, Carnforth and was the sign by the car park entrance all through the 1970s and earlier 1980s (at least when I used to go there).  It came from Salmon Trout.   I believe it's now on the loco and i was told that the reason it was in sufficiently good condition to be reused was all the paint which had been applied while it was in use as a sign.

Edited October 2, 2019 by jwealleans

[Clive Mortimore]

55 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks for posting these, Clive,

 

There were two ex-LNER 4,200 gallon Group Standard tenders at Tinsley for years, one still on the tracks. They were used to store massive batteries. One, ex-V2, had the legend DANGER high voltage current KEEP AWAY painted on its side, and the other, ex-K3, J39, D49 or O2 had a heart-shaped face with a wiggly arrow pointing at it painted on. They appear on page 34 in my Into The Blue, published by Irwell Press.

 

Speaking of Irwell Press, the latest Deltic bookazine should arrive for proof-reading today. It'll be on sale in November.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

Hi Tony

 

The Tinsley tender off the tracks was a load bank. It was used for testing the electrical output of a diesel-electric locomotive's generator. Basicly it was a series of resistors dunked in water to keep them cool. The loco would be wired up to the control cabin and that was wired to the resistors in the tender. The loco was started and its output was checked at various loads. 

 

I have seen photos of the one at Gateshead being used and the amount of steam coming off the tender is quite impressive.

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Not off a Pacific (what was it off ?) but the use of this tender is apparent. Doncaster shed 26 Oct 1968 (over 50 years ago !!!).

 

 

As to boilers, this was in the yard - Spare for Flying Scotsman ?

 

 

Brit15

The plough on the GNR tender is of GCR design, they use to be put on the front of 0-6-0 tender locos when snow was predicted. As far as I can make out they started to be placed on old tenders in the 1930s. I have come across photos showing them on early GCR and GNR designs of tenders. They later were placed on tenders with vacuum brakes, hence the use of GNR and LNER tenders. Even the BR standard independent ploughs were mounted on V2s tender frames because they were vacuum braked, not steam braked like tenders of the GWR and LMS. The Souther Region used Schools tenders for the same reason.

Another medium plough on a Bachmann tender, based on ones at Colchester and Stratford. They later had the coal ravines removed for better visibility for the loco driver. Large plough with a GCR design plough, there were several mounted on GNR tenders and one (as far as I can make out) on a LNER tender, the model is a Nucast  kit with a plastic card plough, it is the most complicated shape I have had to make. The last one is another Bachmann tender, this time with large plough of GER design, it was based at Norwich and before acquiring the loco tender it was carried on a J15 when required.

 

Nothing on the GCR plough is on the center line and the two lower sheets curve all over the shop.

[Tony Wright]

13 hours ago, landscapes said:

Hi Tony

 

i always find any discussions about any Thompson Pacific’s very interesting indeed but especially the A2/3 Class.

 

They are a bit like Marmite you either love or hate them and I think reading through exceptionally good threads on RMWeb like your own the hate then camp seems to be winning.

 

I think this is also reflected in railway photography as well, when I received my two completed Graeme King/ Bachman A2/3 conversions I found it very difficult finding good colour photos of the class to use for weathering purposes.

 

I eventually found a nice colour photo in one of Keith Pirt’s fabulous Steam Colour Portfolio Books.

 

Maybe the railway photographers of the 1950’s and 1960’s disliked them as well.

 

my own person opinion is I can’t get enough of all Thompson Pacific’s

 

Regards

 

David 

 

 

Good afternoon David,

 

I don't think there's really a 'hate' camp for Thompson's Pacifics on here. 

 

Modelling, as I do, what I remember from my trainspotting days, they have to be included. That no RTR manufacturer has ever made one, means that to produce models of them they've had to be scratch-built, kit-built or heavily modified. Mike Edge scratch-built me an A2/2 and an A2/3 over 40 years ago. I looked closely at them, and followed his principles, scratch-built my own. That I no longer own any of them shows how things have moved on.

 

Interestingly, all of 1,500+ pages  ago, this thread started with discussions on Thompson's Pacifics. I won't go into the rights and wrongs of them (more of the latter?), but, this morning I took pictures of the Thompson Pacifics which run on Little Bytham. I hope they're of interest...................

 

They're in number chronology.

 

 

If GREAT NORTHERN were out of shops, I used to see her every time I went 'spotting at Retford. The loco used a take a morning, principal stations stopper from Doncaster to London (and return).  I built this from a Crownline kit. As with all the other locos which I've built, featured in this LB post (with two exceptions) Ian Rathbone painted it. 

 

 

60500 takes the Cliffe-Uddingston cement block train northwards. Apparently, the A2/3s were the only class which could time this very heavy train up Stoke Bank - 9Fs and V2s struggled. It's built from a Crownline kit. 

 

 

This was the prototype for the DJH A2/2 kit. I made it from parts from the firm's A1, A2 and A3 kits, plus a bit of scratch-building. 

 

 

Built from a Crownline kit to represent one of the two in the class which retained the original, shortened P2 boiler to withdrawal. Without major modifications, 60503 and 60504 cannot be built from the DJH kit. 

 

 

This was the second production-built DJH A2/2. Having built the prototype, I then made one for DJH (which I think they've now sold) and this one for myself. I must have built well over 20 since! 

 

 

In 1976, I ordered a Jamieson hand-cut kit from EAMES/Kings Cross for an A2/1, building it into 60508 (the English one). I painted this myself, and it's one of the oldest locos on LB. 

 

 

 

I built this Nu-Cast A2/1, but it's subsequently been sold to a Scottish mate - much more appropriate!

 

 

This was the first production-built DJH A2/3 (other than the one they built for themselves).

 

 

SUN STREAM was made from a Bachmann A2 and Graeme King's adaptation parts, Graeme doing this one for me by way of barter. I patch-re-painted it, and weathered it.

 

 

This was the second production-built A2/3. Note the detail differences between it and 60513. 

 

Apart from 60515, all (as Headstock has intimated) are far to clean (New England and York never cleaned their charges!), but it would be sacrilege to obliterate a perfect Ian Rathbone paint finish. 

 

John Houlden also built several Thompson Pacifics to run on Gamston. I've sold both of these on for him.............

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of wiggly pipes on show!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Tony Wright
typo error

[landscapes]

27 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon David,

 

I don't think there's really a 'hate' camp for Thompson's Pacifics on here. 

 

Modelling, as I do, what I remember from my trainspotting days, they have to be included. That no RTR manufacturer has ever made one, means that to produce models of them they've had to be scratch-built, kit-built or heavily modified. Mike Edge scratch-built me an A2/2 and an A2/3 over 40 years ago. I looked closely at them, and followed his principles, scratch-built my own. That I no longer own any of them shows how things have moved on.

 

Interestingly, all of 1,500+ pages  ago, this thread started with discussions on Thompson's Pacifics. I won't go into the rights and wrongs of them (more of the latter?), but, this morning I took pictures of the Thompson Pacifics which run on Little Bytham. I hope they're of interest...................

 

They're in number chronology.

 

 

If GREAT NORTHERN were out of shops, I used to see her every time I went 'spotting at Retford. The loco used a take a morning, principal stations stopper from Doncaster to London (and return).  I built this from a Crownline kit. As with all the other locos which I've built, featured in this LB post (with two exceptions) Ian Rathbone painted it. 

 

 

60500 takes the Cliffe-Uddingston cement block train northwards. Apparently, the A2/3s were the only class which could time this very heavy train up Stoke Bank - 9Fs and V2s struggled. It's built from a Crownline kit. 

 

 

This was the prototype for the DJH A2/2 kit. I made it from parts from the firm's A1, A2 and A3 kits, plus a bit of scratch-building. 

 

 

Built from a Crownline kit to represent one of the two in the class which retained the original, shortened P2 boiler to withdrawal. Without major modifications, 60503 and 60504 cannot be built from the DJH kit. 

 

 

This was the second production-built DJH A2/2. Having built the prototype, I then made one for DJH (which I think they've now sold) and this one for myself. I must have built well over 20 since! 

 

 

In 1976, I ordered a Jamieson hand-cut kit from EAMES/Kings Cross for an A2/1, building it into 60508 (the English one). I painted this myself, and it's one of the oldest locos on LB. 

 

 

 

I built this Nu-Cast A2/1, but it's subsequently been sold to a Scottish mate - much more appropriate!

 

 

This was the first production-built DJH A2/3 (other than the one they built for themselves).

 

 

SUN STREAM was made from a Bachmann A2 and Graeme King's adaptation parts, Graeme doing this one for me by way of barter. I patch-re-painted it, and weathered it.

 

 

This was the second production-built A2/3. Note the detail differences between it and 60513. 

 

Apart from 60515, all (as Headstock has intimated) are far to clean (New England and York never cleaned their charges!), but it would be sacrilege to obliterate a perfect Ian Rathbone paint finish. 

 

John Houlden also built several Thompson Pacifics to run on Gamston. I've sold both of these on for him.............

 

 

 

 

 

Lots of wiggly pipes on show!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony 

 

Hate was a bad choice of words on my part, dislike would probably nave been a better choice.

 

Thats why your thread is so good it allows open discussions like this.

 

There is one thing for certain from my own point of view seeing your photos you have just posted who could not like Thompson’s Pacific’s.

 

Absolutely superb models, I just wish I had the skills to build them myself, I was very lucky to have Gareth of Replica Railways to help me out.

 

I must have a go at the wiggly pipe work as well.

 

thank you for your reply and for posting your photos, lovely work as usual.

 

Regards

 

David 

Edited October 2, 2019 by landscapes
Additional information

[gr.king]

4 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Not off a Pacific (what was it off ?) but the use of this tender is apparent. Doncaster shed 26 Oct 1968 (over 50 years ago !!!).

 

Brit15

 

If I'm interpreting observations correctly, Ivatt (rounded rear tank edges, flat topped frame cut-outs and steel rear buffer beam) class A tender (note the coal rails finish well short of the front) with equally divided wheelbase, brakes to rear of wheels, and going by the tank vents and hints of a rectangular cover glimpsed through the coal rails, at one time fitted with a water scoop.

 

Any ideas to the contrary anybody?

[jwealleans]

I thought it was unequal wheelbase.

[gr.king]

Hard to be sure on account of perspective. Same number of rivet heads below each frame aperture aided my impression of equality. 

[jwealleans]

Agreed - I was looking at the gap from end rivet to axlebox, but as you say perspective makes it tricky.

 

Does the number of rivets give us any clue?

[kingfisher24]

On 01/10/2019 at 12:48, Lecorbusier said:

I always thought the late Derek Whale's Blackston Junction was a nicely observed winter rendering. .... 

All images: David Brandreth

 

Oh it’s nice to come back into this thread after an enforced break from the hobby as a whole. I remember seeing this at St. Andrews many moons ago and spending a good while watching it. For me it was all the more interesting, being in winter and I’ve seen plenty of “winter” layouts but they are all snow and nothing else but. It’s nice to see another take on it.

 

Now a pic of my latest creation, with a question. I have all but completed a conversion of an Oxford Adams radial into an ex Highland Railway Loch Garry in lms crimson lake. The question is, would anyone on here know if anyone does, did, or has any suitable letters to make up the name of the loco. I’ve had a look at Fox’s page. I’ve seen that they do the names for the original Highland names, but not the later lms lettering.  

Could anyone offer any suggestions....

 

Gary P

[Tony Wright]

11 minutes ago, kingfisher24 said:

Oh it’s nice to come back into this thread after an enforced break from the hobby as a whole. I remember seeing this at St. Andrews many moons ago and spending a good while watching it. For me it was all the more interesting, being in winter and I’ve seen plenty of “winter” layouts but they are all snow and nothing else but. It’s nice to see another take on it.

 

Now a pic of my latest creation, with a question. I have all but completed a conversion of an Oxford Adams radial into an ex Highland Railway Loch Garry in lms crimson lake. The question is, would anyone on here know if anyone does, did, or has any suitable letters to make up the name of the loco. I’ve had a look at Fox’s page. I’ve seen that they do the names for the original Highland names, but not the later lms lettering.  

Could anyone offer any suggestions....

 

Gary P

The ingenuity seen at times on this thread is incredible.

 

I'd have never linked an Adams' Radial with a Highland 4-4-0! 

 

Great stuff.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[kingfisher24]

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

The ingenuity seen at times on this thread is incredible.

 

I'd have never linked an Adams' Radial with a Highland 4-4-0! 

 

Great stuff.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony, for many years I have wanted to build a Loch, and djh did produce a kit, but this has been out of production for many years. And when the kits do come up, they are going for stupid prices. So I looked around to see what was similar, the Adams radial has a similar front end with the boiler and frame being similar. The loco is the correct length and with etc. The only main compromise being the driving wheels. Although this isn’t too obvious as they are half hidden.

[landscapes]

Good Evening Tony

 

Following the recent discussions regarding Thompson's A2/3 Class I enclose a photo of some of my Haymarket based locomotives with a photoshopped background.

 

I am afraid they are all RTR models with the possible exception of A2/3 60511 Airborne which is a G King/Bachmann Conversion.

 

Still lots of work to do to the layout but that doesn't stop me trying to take cameo photos as and where I can.

 

I cannot stay true to the prototype layout due to lack of information of surrounding area's and the space required to replicate the entire MPD at 4mm scale.

 

Regards

 

David

Edited October 2, 2019 by landscapes
Additional information

[Clive Mortimore]

6 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

If I'm interpreting observations correctly, Ivatt (rounded rear tank edges, flat topped frame cut-outs and steel rear buffer beam) class A tender (note the coal rails finish well short of the front) with equally divided wheelbase, brakes to rear of wheels, and going by the tank vents and hints of a rectangular cover glimpsed through the coal rails, at one time fitted with a water scoop.

 

Any ideas to the contrary anybody?

 

6 hours ago, jwealleans said:

I thought it was unequal wheelbase.

Hi Graeme and Jonathan

 

I have been through my collection of ex LNER tender showploughs and I do not have another shot of DE 330911 to clear up if it was an equal wheel base or not. I didn't even have the type of tender listed, so I think Apollo's photo is the first I have seen. Form my own observation of these vehicles there seems to be a good mix of GNR tenders, with and without the handhold at the front, and eqaul and uneaqual wheelbases.

 

Using the  snowplough list in the 1970 sectional appendix for the ER southern section as a basis I have been trying to compile a list of what type of tender was used and which style of plough was fitted. There are many gaps still, so if you have a photo of a tender snowplough please can you be kind enough to let me view it so hopefully I can fill in the gaps. The two LNER tenders in Scotland with the ex CR ploughs are not on the list . Nor are the SR ex Schools class tenders.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eastern Region Snowploughs Table.doc

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, gr.king said:

Same number of rivet heads below each frame aperture

Ah, a genuine rivet counter!

[CF MRC]

A big little engine, slowly taking shape (actually, remarkably fast for me). 

Tim

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, landscapes said:

Good Evening Tony

 

Following the recent discussions regarding Thompson's A2/3 Class I enclose a photo of some of my Haymarket based locomotives with a photoshopped background.

 

I am afraid they are all RTR models with the possible exception of A2/3 60511 Airborne which is a G King/Bachmann Conversion.

 

Still lots of work to do to the layout but that doesn't stop me trying to take cameo photos as and where I can.

 

I cannot stay true to the prototype layout due to lack of information of surrounding area's and the space required to replicate the entire MPD at 4mm scale.

 

Regards

 

David

Thanks for posting this image, David,

 

It looks very effective. 

 

'I am afraid they are all RTR models with the possible exception of A2/3 60511 Airborne which is a G King/Bachmann Conversion.'

 

I don't think there's anything to be 'afraid' of in using RTR models. For a start, none of them looks as if all you've done is 'open the box'. There's some real observation with regard to subtle weathering and detailing. Am I right to assume this is your work? If so, my congratulations. If not, then you've got a very good weatherer. The A2/3 looks very natural, so congratulations to Gareth at Replica. Just those wiggly pipes to add? They really do make a difference. 

 

In conversation with a friend the other day (a fellow builder), we agreed that far more folk today can have far more models which are accurate and run well than ever before. Both of us have been building for a long time, and that's our choice. Firstly, it was out of necessity and now it's really for preference. The big difference between current RTR and kit-built locos is in their relative haulage ability. Unless the three Pacifics you've shown have been packed with extra lead, none of them will haul Bytham's usual trains. It could well be, with a shed depiction, they don't need to. 

 

An inability to take 13/14 kit-built bogies is why I never use (or hardly ever) RTR Pacifics.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

13 hours ago, landscapes said:

Good Evening Tony

 

Following the recent discussions regarding Thompson's A2/3 Class I enclose a photo of some of my Haymarket based locomotives with a photoshopped background.

 

I am afraid they are all RTR models with the possible exception of A2/3 60511 Airborne which is a G King/Bachmann Conversion.

 

Still lots of work to do to the layout but that doesn't stop me trying to take cameo photos as and where I can.

 

I cannot stay true to the prototype layout due to lack of information of surrounding area's and the space required to replicate the entire MPD at 4mm scale.

 

Regards

 

David

Of possible interest, David,

 

Some shots of Haymarket in the '50s........................

 

 

 

Please (all) observe copyright restrictions.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

Regarding GN tenders.............................

 

 

Here's one, clearly in other use, at Grantham in the late '50s.

 

 

It was my understanding that most of the ex-GN six-wheeled tenders got an extra vertical handrail towards the rear of the tank during the War, but only on this side. These two, behind J6s (of both types), at Doncaster in the '50s, certainly didn't.

 

Please (all) observe copyright restrictions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[landscapes]

Hi Tony

 

Thank  you for your very kind comments, yes I do all my own weathering, I mainly try to follow the techniques used by Tim Shackleton in his excellent books and also by using prototype colour photos, I also take the view less is more.

 

As you know Haymarket had a reputation for keeping its Pacific’s in a very clean condition in the 1950’s so weathering is kept to a minimum on the locomotive bodies most of the time unless it’s a visiting locomotive from the Newcastle area.

 

i didn’t start my train spotting until late 1962 and most locomotives I saw by that time were in a pretty poor condition externally. 

 

I cannot disagree with any of your comments relating to kit built locomotives, as you know Paul Hill of PDK built me A2/1 60509 Waverley which you kindly allowed me to run on your Little Bytham Layout, a superb model in every way and there is still such a variety of locomotive classes in kit form that are just not available in RTR.

 

My frustration is I have no problems creating buildings for my layout coming from an Architectural background and other aspects of the hobby but the thought of me trying to build a locomotive kit is best described as “a ploughman going to a knitting convention”

 

But the wiggly pipe work is a must for me, I already have the fuse wire but I just need to work out the other bits I need to replicate such as the values and other items protruding from the locomotive boilers the the pipe work was connected  to.

 

Regards

 

David

 

 

[landscapes]

35 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Of possible interest, David,

 

Some shots of Haymarket in the '50s........................

 

 

 

Please (all) observe copyright restrictions.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Hi Tony

 

Some truly incredible photos, thank you for posting them, what a site that must have been for any trainspotter visiting the MPD in the 1950's

 

I have over the years collected hundreds of photos of Haymarket MPD and its surrounding area's from the internet both in black and white and colour as well purely for reference purposes.

 

I have also been very fortunate to receive help and information from some of our RMWeb colleagues who live in Scotland and knew Haymarket in its steam days. and from Ex Haymarket railwayman Harry Knox who over the years has produced some splendid books on Haymarket MPD and other motive power depots in the Edinburgh area.

 

As you know from your own experience with Little Bytham any information you can get even the smallest snippet is of great help in building up an overall picture of the model railway you are trying to create especially in prototype building. 

 

Of all the photos I have collected so far I have never seen any of the ones you have just added, thank you again for posting the, by chance do you know who the photographer was.

 

Regards

 

David

[Clive Mortimore]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Regarding GN tenders.............................

 

 

Here's one, clearly in other use, at Grantham in the late '50s.

 

 

It was my understanding that most of the ex-GN six-wheeled tenders got an extra vertical handrail towards the rear of the tank during the War, but only on this side. These two, behind J6s (of both types), at Doncaster in the '50s, certainly didn't.

 

Please (all) observe copyright restrictions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Tony

 

What a big pity the photographer of the N2 didn't take the photo at a slightly different angle so that the plough end of the converted tender was visible and sadly the number is not clear. Never mind he did take a photo of an everyday workhorse not another pacific.  Are your sure about the date of the photo? The loco has OLE warning flashes on it. 

[Chamby]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Of possible interest, David,

 

Some shots of Haymarket in the '50s......................

 

Please (all) observe copyright restrictions.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Those D11/2’s are a cracking example of the importance of observation.  Just looking at the front ends... smokebox rivets, handrails, smokebox door handles, guard irons, shed plate, and 62685 has clearly had a front end bump at some stage... nice photograph.