grahame Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 44 minutes ago, Headstock said: Nice overall scene and great photo. G 3 11 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 19 hours ago, richard i said: The first has a whiff of gcr Parker perhaps and the third looks a little ner in shape, perhaps also the fifth one back because of the trussing. I could be way off the mark though. Until I build a model of something I find it hard to pick up on all the little details to tell with huge certainty. fully expect others to tell you what they really are. richard Whilst looking through Wild Swans LMS in the 1930s picture book I came across a pic of a similar vehicle to third coach. It is stated as a LYR open 3rd. The first vehicle still has me stumped, it is those long grab handles! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted April 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2020 The leading carriage in that train is very likely a corridor vehicle, due to the toilet compartments at each end and the alarm gear on the end being stepped to raise it over what would presumably be a corridor connection on the end of the vehicle. Does that narrow it down? The GER had similar arrangements on the carriage end but I don't think those grab handles are long enough for GER, which went right to the bottom of the carriage side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atso Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) Interesting to see Tony's and Graham's lovely D2 builds. I've been working on one of these myself as one of my 'lockdown projects'. This one is going to be 3049, fitted with J6 chimney and dome. The body design work is just about done from a cosmetic perspective. However, working out how I'm going to power an N gauge model still requires some more consideration. I've had to juggle the coupled wheelbase at the rear by 0.5mm to allow everything to fit without resorting to stretching the body which I think won't be noticeable on the final model. Edited April 25, 2020 by Atso 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, Rail-Online said: Tony suggested I posted an extract of this photo, taken near Coventry in August 1937 as he was unable to help me in my request for details of the coaching stock. It is a really strange working! I am pretty sure they are not LMS (or constituent companies) stock, my 'guru' on Southern stuff says they are not his so does any of you guys know? Note the lack of luggage or gaurds compartments except in the Stanier full brake. The Patriot hauling it was operating displaying ordinary stopping passenger lamps. Cheers Tony I think I've found a match for the leading carriage in this photograph of a Glasgow & South Western corridor third. Note the queenpost trussing of the underframe, the single panel between the toilet window and the quarterlight of the adjacent compartment. The killer identifier though, is the door grab-handles extending below the waist panels. I'm pretty sure the second carriage is an ex-LNWR 50 ft 7 compartment corridor third to D267, built 1910-11 [D. Jenkinson, LNWR Carriages (2e, Pendragon, 1995) p. 95 and plate 111]. The third carriage definitely has a L&Y look about it - by their bogies shall ye know them. The L&Y built a "fireproof" 8-coach train, I think in response to the Aisgill accident; as far as I can glean these were mostly open carriages. They had steel panelling, which fits with what we see. The high-waisted picture windows with double toplights are characteristic of later-period L&Y design, giving them a surprisingly modern look [R.W. Rush, Lancashire & Yorkshire passenger Stock (Oakwood Press, 1984) p. 9]. From its underframe, I'm confident the fourth carriage is a standard LMS Period 1 corridor third, D1695. The fifth carriage, with its "clipper" profile and lower-than-standard clerestory roof, is ex-Midland: one of the vestibuled (i.e. open) third class carriages built for excursion train use to D595, built in 1910 and 1913. It's probably from the the later batch of six, as the first batch were formed into close-coupled sets of three [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 224 anf figs. 279-280]. Such a mixed bag of all third class carriages (assuming the L&Y carriage is an open third) along with the string of horseboxes in the rear suggests a race-day special of some sort, or possibly a troop train. EDIT: reading through previous posts, @Headstock and @Darryl Tooley were before me with LNWR, L&Y, LMS Period 1, and Midland identifications. Edited April 25, 2020 by Compound2632 3 2 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Chamby said: What a lovely looking model! Can I please ask how common was this particular livery/lettering combination and in which years would it have been seen? The reason for asking is that my roster includes a D11 in a similar red-lined black, but with unshaded yellow lettering and carrying a post 1946 number, but I am very dubious of its authenticity as I have not found any photographs showing this combination. Shaded lettering with unlined black livery seems to have been the norm for the 4-4-0’s in the later LNER years, so my D11 is scheduled for the paint shop - though it does look very attractive as is! Bachmann’s model of ‘Luckie Mucklebackit’ produced a few years ago carried a red-lined black livery, but in this case with gold shaded lettering - again presumably an earlier period combination, but one I haven’t observed elsewhere. I found you this picture of 2661 at Neasden in 1947. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2020 Just now, Headstock said: I found you this picture of 2661 at Neasden in 1947. What is the carriage in the background? Some ex-GC type? (I'm not well up on those.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted April 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: What is the carriage in the background? Some ex-GC type? (I'm not well up on those.) I can help with that one! That is the end of one of the GCR Clerestory Dining Saloons built for the London Extension. You can't see enough to tell if it is the 1st Class or 3rd Class as they were very similar at the ends. It has been modified, with the Corridor Connection removed and a replacement door, plus it is very tatty, so perhaps in departmental use now. Photos are in Dow's book on the GCR in Volume 2, P269. A friend recently sent me a photo and suggested that if I ever scratchbuild a GCR train, these carriages should be included as they look fantastic! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted April 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2020 20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: What is the carriage in the background? Some ex-GC type? (I'm not well up on those.) A further comparison confirms it as the 1st Class Saloon. The panel between the door and the first window is narrower than the 3rd Class. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engineer Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) Sorry to join in as an outsider, and apologies if I have it wrong. I have a a left-field comment on the image of 2661 and its background. Particularly if it is Neaden 1947, I suggest the items in the background are grounded bodies of Metropolitan Railway Saloon Stock cars. I am researching this stock to provide robust information for some modeller colleagues. Given a bit more time, I should be able to find some information on the particular vehicles. Vehicle now identified, see post dated April 25, 2020 Edited January 10, 2021 by Engineer Additional information 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atso Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 7 minutes ago, Engineer said: Sorry to join in as an outsider No such thing here. The more the merrier! 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted April 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Engineer said: Sorry to join in as an outsider, and apologies if I have it wrong. I have a a left-field comment on the image of 2661 and its background. Particularly if it is Neaden 1947, I suggest the items in the background are grounded bodies of Metropolitan Railway Saloon Stock cars. I am researching this stock to provide robust information for some modeller colleagues. Given a bit more time, I should be able to find some information on the particular vehicles. I am happy to be corrected if wrong! I may have been quick to jump to a conclusion. I know little about the Met and hadn't considered them as an option. If you have a look at the GCR Dining saloons, you will see why I was fooled. Edited April 25, 2020 by t-b-g 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: What is the carriage in the background? Some ex-GC type? (I'm not well up on those.) Good afternoon Stephen, I'm not one hundred percent sure without reference material, however they do have some features, the distinctive cut out in the roof above the end vestibule for example, that remind me of Metropolitan stock. The 'cut off' curved end of the clerestory is also an interesting feature. Edited April 25, 2020 by Headstock clarification. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2020 12 minutes ago, Engineer said: Sorry to join in as an outsider, and apologies if I have it wrong. I have a a left-field comment on the image of 2661 and its background. Particularly if it is Neaden 1947, I suggest the items in the background are grounded bodies of Metropolitan Railway Saloon Stock cars. I am researching this stock to provide robust information for some modeller colleagues. Given a bit more time, I should be able to find some information on the particular vehicles. Now you're making me really pleased I asked! They do look grounded. But it's interesting that the confusion should arise, given the close connection between the Met and the Great Central - I wonder if there's some connection in the design - some sharing of drawing office staff, or the same builder? I know the MS&L / GC struggled for carriage building space at Gorton, until Dunkinfield opened in 1910, so use of outside builders wouldn't be surprising, but I know nothing of the Met's carriage works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engineer Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) Alas, two replies disappeared, so third attempt. Additional footnote to the original image, following checks with robust sources: The grounded saloon vehicle in the background is LT number 6233 [Hammersmith & City Third Driving Trailer formerly no. 128]. Three recognition details are the truncated 'ramp' at the end of the clerestory which is a feature of driving ends built in that era, the trace of a single upper marker light above the end gangway door [H&C Stock only], and the bracket that holds the outer end of the metal destination plates on the car end just below the driver's lookout window. The car number comes from post-war observations recorded in 'Underground News' and Brian Hardy stock publications. For completeness, the other grounded body observed at Neasden was LT number 9210 [Metropolitan Third Trailer no 34] which had slightly different features. I suggest there's a tiny trace of this vehicle's end at the extreme left of the image. Metropolitan and GC design contrasts, mentioned in a previous post: I know that the Metropolitan and the Great Central had a bond that might be described positively as creative tension. There is ample evidence for this in the archived correspondence of Fay [GC] and Selbie [Met.], over matters such as fares and station naming on the Joint Line. The tension went back much further, though. I'd suggest that there was no direct influence on the Met's design choices in this case. The Met. was pretty good at noticing its collaborators' and competitors' activities, and keeping up while doing things slightly differently. The electrification saga with the District Railway is one example that didn't quite come off, and there is another example, a hypothesis that the Met's Haltes of the 1900s took multiple cues from the GWR precursors to the extent of going to the same supplier for some small platform waiting buildings, but carefully avoiding the GWR style of roof. Briefly, and cutting corners, the Metropolitan's Saloon Stock came in various batches over a number of years, evolving in design to match fashions and service needs. Builders were Metropolitan Amalgamated, who would have experience or knowledge of contemporary UK practice for commuter saloons, and other main line vehicles. Another influence would be the transatlantic styles of the time for electric trains, which were followed closely by the District but interpreted more liberally and gently for the Met's early stock. I'd conclude there was negligible direct GC influence on the Saloon Stock design. As an aside, there was a GC influence in vehicle design a little later, again following the principle of learning while avoiding direct imitation. The GC introduced very high quality coaches in the 1900s. The Metropolitan's vehicles on the same route were much less attractive by comparison [These were the 'Bogie Stock' - the official name used by the Metropolitan and London Transport]. Among tracings, prints and papers from the Metropolitan I saw one or two GC carriage drawings, and one cross-section of a 3rd class compartment showing the quality of the interior, and I suggest this indicates Met, desire to learn and improve from others in order to maximise revenue - in business today it might be called Benchmarking! With a surplus of Saloon Stock trailers by 1910, the Metropolitan commissioned Metropolitan Amalgamated to rebuild some of these to compartment coaches, officially 'Main Line Stock' but soon acquired a second name of Dreadnought. The body style was piloted just before with the reconstruction of two crash-damaged Saloon Motors for use as single vehicles - the loco-hauled reconstructions followed. One reconstructed vehicle, a third brake, survives with the Vintage Carriage Trust alongside two others of later builds. Edited January 10, 2021 by Engineer Use of English and additional information 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Wright Posted April 25, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 25, 2020 5 hours ago, Wingman Mothergoose said: Good morning Tony, I'm a relative newcomer to RMWeb, and was completely unaware of your thread! am just having a quick look through some of the more recent posts and thought I would say hello! I was also prompted to say hi after a conversation with our mutual friend Jesse Sim a few weeks ago on the LNER Modellers Facebook group. I don't interact much on here, something I'm going to change over the coming weeks as I have time off work to continue with my layout Richmond. Dear Wingman (though it would be nice to know your real name), Welcome to the thread. It's popular, lively, occasionally controversial but always interesting. I hope Jesse said nothing complimentary about me! I think his first correspondence with me was 'Yo Tony'. I suppose it's worse than 'hi'. You'll infer from that that I'm old and even older-fashioned. It would be interesting to see progress on your layout. Regards, Tony. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollar Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Headstock said: I found you this picture of 2661 at Neasden in 1947. Someone has been trying to get waterslide transfers to bed into a matte surface. We've all done it 5 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, Hollar said: Someone has been trying to get waterslide transfers to bed into a matte surface. We've all done it If you think that looks bad, you should see what happened in 1948! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post Tony Wright Posted April 25, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) Firstly, thanks to all those who've posted responses to Tony Sheffield's carriages query. Most-enlightening..... As promised, more shots on the M&GNR................... The new D16/3 is now painted, and it awaits its front numberplate. I used Halfords rattle can satin black over red oxide primer, which gives a good finish. Weathering will come later, though the obligatory lamp(s) and crew are present. Head-on shots on the M&GNR bit always present problems, because the backscene goes round corners at the ends. Not only that, the ECML disappears as it heads north! All the above said, it's worth continuing taking pictures. In this one a 4F (SE Finecast/Wright) heads a summer excursion to the Norfolk coast. The patient B1 on the main line waits in the Up lay-by with its pick-up freight. Another SEF/Wright 4F heads a Notts-Lynn three set. The missing main line to the right is not too bad in this lower-viewpoint shot. The daily Down freight heads east towards Bourne. Yet another 4F (Airfix/Comet/Wright) has the job, and it sports a Stanier chimney. A scene from the early-50s (but the pick-up hasn't changed) as a B12/3 (McGowan/Wright) heads ex-LMS stock to Yarmouth. I did the point rodding on the M&GNR bit years ago, making it from plastic section. Big mistake - it fell apart. Yesterday, I replaced the lot with MSE components. The 'dubious' modified Hornby Claud heads a Spalding-Leicester 'parly' just at Nationalisation (not that the end of the Big Four means anything to St. Medard). The pick-up remains the same! I have no photographic evidence to suggest that Ivatt 2MTs ever worked on the M&GNR, but since many other Nottingham-allocated 2-6-0s were very common, could it be possible? I acquired this from the estate of a deceased modeller. He'd modified the Hornby body, but had not finished it. I built both loco and tender chassis for it, completed the job and gave it to Geoff Haynes to paint. It's heading a Lynn-Notts ex-LMS three-set. The much more-common larger Ivatt 2-6-0s are represented here by this modified Bachmann example heading the Up 'Leicester'. Before Dave Wager built this wonderful bridge, I was reluctant to take pictures from this angle. J6s were common on the M&GNR, on both passenger and freight jobs. Here 64234 (WSM/scratch/Wright - gulp!) heads the Up daily goods. K2s were also quite common. In this view 61745 (Nu-Cast/scratch/Wright) heads a Yarmouth train. It must be out of season because during the summer timetable the loads were substantial. There are some 25 locos to choose from for MR/M&GNR services (mostly kit-built). Nine complete trains are permanently made-up in the fiddle yard, but more can by created by using the bi-directional through road. I suppose, not bad in only 12' x 4 and half'. Edited April 25, 2020 by Tony Wright typo error 32 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Sim Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 45 minutes ago, Tony Wright said: Dear Wingman (though it would be nice to know your real name), Welcome to the thread. It's popular, lively, occasionally controversial but always interesting. I hope Jesse said nothing complimentary about me! I think his first correspondence with me was 'Yo Tony'. I suppose it's worse than 'hi'. You'll infer from that that I'm old and even older-fashioned. It would be interesting to see progress on your layout. Regards, Tony. Oh of course not, just the standard “great bloke, bit of an old git but” you know how it is Tony... 1 1 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 Gittery is one of the privileges of older age and one to which I am looking forward immensely. 4 4 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Wright Posted April 25, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 minute ago, jwealleans said: Gittery is one of the privileges of older age and one to which I am looking forward immensely. Enjoy it Jonathan, I do, though I've been a git in my formative years as well! Regards, Tony. 2 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Wingman Mothergoose Posted April 25, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Tony Wright said: Dear Wingman (though it would be nice to know your real name), Welcome to the thread. It's popular, lively, occasionally controversial but always interesting. I hope Jesse said nothing complimentary about me! I think his first correspondence with me was 'Yo Tony'. I suppose it's worse than 'hi'. You'll infer from that that I'm old and even older-fashioned. It would be interesting to see progress on your layout. Regards, Tony. Whoops! Thought I'd put my name at the bottom! I'm Chris, and my Layout is Richmond North Yorkshire(I do have a thread for it on here that I occasionally update, I do have a YouTube channel and post regularly on one or two groups on Facebook), it's still vey much in its infancy, but I'm hoping to make steady progress in the coming months. Chris 24 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoff west Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, jwealleans said: Gittery is one of the privileges of older age and one to which I am looking forward immensely. At only 55 I feel i'm already there. 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullie Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 Really good to see coverage of the M&GN section. Here is my version of the type of halts built on the stretch from Melton Constable to Yarmouth Beach, often to serve the holiday camps. Built from bits of balsa, a Wills bench the fencing is Hornby I think? Martyn 17 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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