Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

Talk of the ex-streamlined cars has motivated me to find these...................

 

Seen before, I'm sure, but in a different context.

 

 

I think this is a Sunday diversion working, since it's a Down service approaching Gainsborough Lea Road. 

 

 

Here's what looks to be a similar service, but this time not diverted. It's at Markham Moor. 

 

I can find no record of an SO/RSO twin being in this place in an ECML express.

 

Yes, in a train, but not at the very front (other than in Scotland, but that was the brake version).

 

 

This might be the Glasgow express mentioned, though the catering twin is still very near the front of the train. 

 

I hope Hornby consider bringing these magnificent cars out in this guise. 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

One thing I've noticed in the prototype shots I've posted of late is how clean (in the main) the carriage bodies are. The second and third shots in the post above show the cars with a 'mirror' finish, reflecting the adjacent tracks. The locos are shabby in comparison, something I'll observe in new constructions. 

[robertcwp]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Banks/Carter tell us that the four dining twins (ex-Coronation/West Riding) RT/BTO (later RS/BSO) were used from Edinburgh in the '50s/early-'60s, principally on services to Aberdeen, where one was used on the Up Aberdonian as the leading vehicles as far as Edinburgh. I'm sure this is correct, but I'm highly-suspicious of this work, particularly in the captions where much is mis-identified. 

 

 

There are lots of photos of a brake third/restaurant third twin being used in the southbound Aberdonian north of Edinburgh. Such twins also appeared in other Edinburgh-Aberdeen trains and if I recall correctly one worked Newcastle-Edinburgh on one of the sleepers, as a breakfast car. I don't think any of that type were regular performers south of Newcastle in BR days, or at least not until late in their lives, if that. There is colour footage of the Aberdonian leaving Aberdeen in 1948 or 1948 behind a Thompson pacific with a twin still in blue livery (edit: now seen that Andrew has posted images from that footage). Most of the twins were put back into service in 1948 and either retained their pre-war colours or were repainted in the same livery. The three in the West Riding were crimson and cream from the launch of that train in 1949 as it was one of the services used to showcase the new livery in 1959.

 

The two observation cars were also in Scotland, in original and later in rebuilt form.

 

E1729E by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Edited January 16, 2022 by robertcwp
Clarify a point.

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Talk of the ex-streamlined cars has motivated me to find these...................

 

Seen before, I'm sure, but in a different context.

 

 

I think this is a Sunday diversion working, since it's a Down service approaching Gainsborough Lea Road. 

 

 

Here's what looks to be a similar service, but this time not diverted. It's at Markham Moor. 

 

I can find no record of an SO/RSO twin being in this place in an ECML express.

 

Yes, in a train, but not at the very front (other than in Scotland, but that was the brake version).

 

 

This might be the Glasgow express mentioned, though the catering twin is still very near the front of the train. 

 

I hope Hornby consider bringing these magnificent cars out in this guise. 

 

 

 

 

I suspect that all of these might have been from after the twins were displaced from what had been their workings for most of the 1950s and were in use on reliefs, Saturdays only trains or as substitutes. By the summer of 1961, twins were not shown in the King's Cross-Glasgow trains in the carriage workings. The West Riding was altered to a morning down service around 1961 and had by then lost its twins too. 

[robertcwp]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

When did the Mailcoach kits first come out? Near on 30 years ago? 

 

I know I built mine when they first appeared; before widespread knowledge of the extra doors was apparent. I just built them in ignorance (not good advice, but knowledge increases all the time).

 

You're right that the major difference was the removal of the streamlined fairings between the bogies (this had to be done on the Mailcoach kits as well). However, from my searching, it would appear that in BR days on some the solebars still remained covered (with the trussing exposed) but on others the solebars were exposed (a later alteration?). I know that the Thompson PV cars with covered solebars suffered from the coverings' tendency to trap moisture, and thus cause rot. Might this have happened latterly on the streamlined cars with covered solebars? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Something I discovered only recently is that there is another Mailcoach twin on 'Retford'. The two twins in the West Riding set are metal but the twin first in the Talisman is a Mailcoach kit, altered to include the additional doors. It blends in so well with the metal, kit-built carriages around it that I had assumed it was done the same way as the twins in the West Riding.

 

Incidentally, I also recently discovered that the Gresley end-door composite in one of the sets is a Kirk kit. The glazing has been done so neatly that from normal Retford viewing distances you would think it has etched sides.

[PMP]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

Here's what looks to be a similar service, but this time not diverted. It's at Markham Moor. 

Is that Markham Moor Notts? (south end of Gamston Bank). The reason I ask is the topography doesn’t look familiar at all, I regularly ride and walk the area.

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, PMP said:

Is that Markham Moor Notts? (south end of Gamston Bank). The reason I ask is the topography doesn’t look familiar at all, I regularly ride and walk the area.

I think it is Paul,

 

In the distance you can see the elegant, single span occupation bridge which was just north of what used to be Lincoln Road level crossing, the A57. That's long been demolished, as has the level crossing and the Down relief has also long been lifted. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Something I discovered only recently is that there is another Mailcoach twin on 'Retford'. The two twins in the West Riding set are metal but the twin first in the Talisman is a Mailcoach kit, altered to include the additional doors. It blends in so well with the metal, kit-built carriages around it that I had assumed it was done the same way as the twins in the West Riding.

 

Incidentally, I also recently discovered that the Gresley end-door composite in one of the sets is a Kirk kit. The glazing has been done so neatly that from normal Retford viewing distances you would think it has etched sides.

Good morning Robert,

 

I think all you mention is Geoff Kent's peerless work.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, robertcwp said:

I suspect that all of these might have been from after the twins were displaced from what had been their workings for most of the 1950s and were in use on reliefs, Saturdays only trains or as substitutes. By the summer of 1961, twins were not shown in the King's Cross-Glasgow trains in the carriage workings. The West Riding was altered to a morning down service around 1961 and had by then lost its twins too. 

You're probably right Robert,

 

Though, from my observations, it's unusual for extras and reliefs to carry destination/train name boards on their roof brackets.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I think it is Paul,

 

In the distance you can see the elegant, single span occupation bridge which was just north of what used to be Lincoln Road level crossing, the A57. That's long been demolished, as has the level crossing and the Down relief has also long been lifted. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Ah that’ll be East Markham then, there’s still an occupation bridge there, just off the current A57 alignment. 

I’ve worked out it’s East Markham Siding, about 1 mile north of the old A57 level crossing. Just off the top LH corner of this image.

Edited January 17, 2022 by PMP
Location found

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Robert,

 

I think all you mention is Geoff Kent's peerless work.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Yes, I expect so. 

[dibateg]

I'm back on the minefield of Great Central tenders I'm afraid - 

 

I hope I might tap on the extensive knowledge of WW readers.

I'm just making up this tender for a J11 in 1960 - I know the water pick up gear had been removed by then, so the ships wheel and housing would not be there. Would the offset 'tool box' ( if that's what it is ) on the tender top be removed as well? Late photos often show this missing.

 

Did the division plate stay where it was  - nothing in the green bible or Yeadons to confirm whether it moved or not..

 

Also the front sand pipes would have been taken off, so would that include those curved front sand boxes at the foot of the tender front plate? Scouring Yeadons pictures seems to indicate that they were removed.

 

Thanks!

Tony

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

Ah that’ll be East Markham then, there’s still an occupation bridge there, just off the current A57 alignment. It’s still not quite making sense, due to main track alignment. I’ll go and take a ride out there this week and have a look.

And the moral is, Paul?

 

Never believe photographer's notes!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[PMP]

11 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

And the moral is, Paul?

 

Never believe photographer's notes!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

The pictures taken looking South Easterly from the south side of the tracks abeam the arrow. ‘Markham Moor’ I guess might have been a nickname for the location. The bridge in the picture has been removed, probably with the electrification of the ECML. Markham Moor itself is at the bottom of the A57 hill where it joins the A1.

Edited January 17, 2022 by PMP

[t-b-g]

 

1 hour ago, dibateg said:

I'm back on the minefield of Great Central tenders I'm afraid - 

 

I hope I might tap on the extensive knowledge of WW readers.

I'm just making up this tender for a J11 in 1960 - I know the water pick up gear had been removed by then, so the ships wheel and housing would not be there. Would the offset 'tool box' ( if that's what it is ) on the tender top be removed as well? Late photos often show this missing.

 

Did the division plate stay where it was  - nothing in the green bible or Yeadons to confirm whether it moved or not..

 

Also the front sand pipes would have been taken off, so would that include those curved front sand boxes at the foot of the tender front plate? Scouring Yeadons pictures seems to indicate that they were removed.

 

Thanks!

Tony

 

Hello Tony,

 

The more I learn about GCR tenders the more I realise how much I don't yet know! I haven't studied the BR period much but I have picked up a few snippets of information while reading up and looking for details.

 

My understanding is that if the water scoop gear was removed that the boxes on the back (they hid the operating cranks for the scoop gear - snap attached) remained in place. Even some tenders built without water scoops had the boxes fitted in case a decision was made to fit water scoops later. Any without the boxes in the back are likely to be either ROD or pre-Robinson period Pollitt or Parker tenders.

 

 

So the boxes and coal space as per the kit look right to me.

 

For the sanding gear, not all tenders were built with it and one of the GA drawings in "Johnson" shows a Robinson tender with no sanding gear.

 

As for the sandboxes, if yours has no gear, then the footplate would look like the attached snap. This is the self trimmer on Butler Henderson, which either never had sanding gear or has had it removed.

 

 

I took quite a few detail snaps of the tender, which were useful in adding detail to my models. Not the best quality as the light was poor and it was a cheap camera but they do show a fair amount of detail.

 

I attach a couple to give you the idea. If you need anything else, let me know, I might have something suitable!

 

Cheers

 

Tony

Edited January 17, 2022 by t-b-g
typo

[65179]

1 hour ago, dibateg said:

I'm back on the minefield of Great Central tenders I'm afraid - 

 

I hope I might tap on the extensive knowledge of WW readers.

I'm just making up this tender for a J11 in 1960 - I know the water pick up gear had been removed by then, so the ships wheel and housing would not be there. Would the offset 'tool box' ( if that's what it is ) on the tender top be removed as well? Late photos often show this missing.

 

Did the division plate stay where it was  - nothing in the green bible or Yeadons to confirm whether it moved or not..

 

Also the front sand pipes would have been taken off, so would that include those curved front sand boxes at the foot of the tender front plate? Scouring Yeadons pictures seems to indicate that they were removed.

 

Thanks!

Tony

 

Which loco are you doing Tony? Also is that a 4000 gallon rather than a 3250 gallon one and are you sure about the full height rear coalplate?

 

Regards,

Simon

[john new]

6 hours ago, PMP said:

 

The pictures taken looking South Easterly from the south side of the tracks abeam the arrow. ‘Markham Moor’ I guess might have been a nickname for the location. The bridge in the picture has been removed, probably with the electrification of the ECML. Markham Moor itself is at the bottom of the A57 hill where it joins the A1.

 

If it helps, and my memory is correct, the old Dunlop Bridge and garage on the old Great North Rd (A1) was always known as Markham Moor to my Dad from years ago and was, therefore, what I also knew it as. Gone now with all the motorway style upgrades to the A1. It suggests a generic name for quite a wide area.

[Tony Wright]

22 minutes ago, john new said:

 

If it helps, and my memory is correct, the old Dunlop Bridge and garage on the old Great North Rd (A1) was always known as Markham Moor to my Dad from years ago and was, therefore, what I also knew it as. Gone now with all the motorway style upgrades to the A1. It suggests a generic name for quite a wide area.

Thanks John,

 

Whenever our family went to Lincoln (to visit an old teacher training chum of my dad's), the area seemed to be known as Markham Moor.

 

I was merely going on the photographer's references. He frequented the area a lot, including Askham Tunnel, Gamston Bank and, of course, Retford. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[PMP]

1 hour ago, john new said:

. It suggests a generic name for quite a wide area.

It’s a specific name for a very small area.
 

The junction of the A57 and A1 is the area named and known as Markham Moor, ‘A’ on the map.

The photo location is ‘B’ on the map and is actually known as Askham, and Askham tunnel is about 1/2 mile north of the photo location just visible at the top of the map.

 

I’ve no idea why a photographer would call the image location Markham Moor, as the area isn’t called that, in any sense, hence my original query. If you were captioning an image for that location it should be ‘East Markham Siding’ or if labelling it as the area it’s known as,  ‘Askham’.

 

 

 

[31A]

The 1956 Railway Clearing House Handbook of Stations lists East Markham Siding (Public), Eastern Region GN Section, parent station Tuxford.  The loading gauge is visible in the photo that Tony posted, and the siding is visible (as a loop, on the down side) in the old OS Map extract that PMP posted above.

[James Fitzjames]

23 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I'll happily sign any of them when you next come over, though that'll instantly devalue them!

Quite the opposite, Tony!

 

James (friendly neighbourhood book dealer)

[john new]

On 17/01/2022 at 18:54, PMP said:

It’s a specific name for a very small area.
 

The junction of the A57 and A1 is the area named and known as Markham Moor, ‘A’ on the map.

The photo location is ‘B’ on the map and is actually known as Askham, and Askham tunnel is about 1/2 mile north of the photo location just visible at the top of the map.

 

I’ve no idea why a photographer would call the image location Markham Moor, as the area isn’t called that, in any sense, hence my original query. If you were captioning an image for that location it should be ‘East Markham Siding’ or if labelling it as the area it’s known as,  ‘Askham’.

Possibly for the same, or similar reason, that the island I live on is very often called Portland Bill, the Bill is actually the very, very, small tip of the Island & Royal Manor of Portland. The villages of Castletown, Chiswell, Fortuneswell, Easton, Southwell* and Weston, plus the other various sub-areas rarely get mentioned. The biggest annoyance to locals, the descriptions in folk mythology of sailing events for the 2012 Games, the sailing centre and base were not in Weymouth, despite what the media kept stating, they were situated on the Island as my photo below of the ******* flame confirms. (IP rights prevents use of the official word)

 

* The parish containing the actual Bill. Railway enthusiasts may just know of Easton as it had a station.

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by john new
Replaced the lost photo

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

It’s a specific name for a very small area.
 

The junction of the A57 and A1 is the area named and known as Markham Moor, ‘A’ on the map.

The photo location is ‘B’ on the map and is actually known as Askham, and Askham tunnel is about 1/2 mile north of the photo location just visible at the top of the map.

 

I’ve no idea why a photographer would call the image location Markham Moor, as the area isn’t called that, in any sense, hence my original query. If you were captioning an image for that location it should be ‘East Markham Siding’ or if labelling it as the area it’s known as,  ‘Askham’.

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification Paul,

 

Any photographs in the collection named as being at 'Markham Moor' I'll now refer to as East Markham (or Askham).

 

To be fair, the naming of certain railway locations quite some distance from where they actually are isn't uncommon. Take Stoke Bank, for instance. The village of Stoke (Rochford) is about four/five miles away from Stoke Summit; it's the other side of the A1! Yet, the 'box at the summit proudly displayed 'Stoke' on both its ends. Geographically, it should have read 'Bassingthorpe' or 'Westby' (local hamlets and the nearest settlements), or even Burton Coggles (a village) which are much nearer. 'Bytham Bank' might have been even better, because that's about halfway (or were gradients always named after their summits?). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, t-b-g said:

The more I learn about [insert any topic of your choice here] the more I realise how much I don't yet know!

Quite so.

[St Enodoc]

44 minutes ago, john new said:

Possibly for the same, or similar reason, that the island I live on is very often called Portland Bill, the Bill is actually the very, very, small tip of the Island & Royal Manor of Portland. The villages of Castletown, Chiswell, Fortuneswell, Easton, Southwell* and Weston, plus the other various sub-areas rarely get mentioned. The biggest annoyance to locals, the descriptions in folk mythology of sailing events for the 2012 Games, the sailing centre and base were not in Weymouth, despite what the media kept stating, they were situated on the Island as my photo below of the ******* flame confirms. (IP rights prevents use of the official word)

 

* The parish containing the actual Bill. Railway enthusiasts may just know of Easton as it had a station.

 

 

What, we're not allowed to call the Olympic Games the Olympic Games any more? What are we supposed to call them, then?