Wright writes.....

[t-b-g]

46 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Highlighted two points above:

The first may be true, but what digital has done is just allow the amateur to do what the professional always did with film.  Pros do have a better success rate than the rest of us, but they also didn't turn up to view a layout and take half a dozen shots, the cost of travelling to visit dwarfed the cost of developing a second or third film.  Pros also used technology in that they usually had a more expensively-populated kit bag than the rest of us.

I am also rarely wowed by published model railway photography any more, because I find almost all magazines - BRM included - use grossly over-enlarged images (which actually highlight faults in models instead of showing the perfection in them) and much too intense colour.  It may be old-fashioned, but I often prefer B&W because it usually mimics the images of the real things being modelled.  It's only in the last 30 years that the majority of published images of the current scene have been in colour.

I will add that Tony's images on this thread are generally much better with more natural, softer colours and there are also many superb images on the "How realistic are your models?" thread.

 

I would agree. Even I, as a very amateur photographer with very basic digital equipment, have managed to produce photos that I thought were pretty average but which others thought were good enough to be published. I have even managed a couple of cover photos.

 

With my old film camera, I took some decent pictures of real trains and other subject matter but I don't think I ever took a good model railway photo. Lighting and getting good depth of field were beyond my skill level.

 

My comments are mainly aimed at the model railway press, which has developed a style that I am just not very keen on. Super sharp full page photos are not very flattering to most models. They bring out all sorts of things that you probably wouldn't see with the naked eye.

 

I have noticed it most recently when I view photos either on my tablet or on a big computer screen. I see all sorts of things on the big screen, which I don't even notice on the tablet.

 

Now that we have the technology to view models in good quality photos at many times life size doesn't always mean that it is a good idea to do that.

 

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, MJI said:

Might give them a go, but then would it match my existing ones?

 

Will give it a thought

 

I have no direct experience of dealing with Worsley Works but a fellow club member has commissioned a number of esoteric Great Western carriages from them,  which he then has professionally built up and painted - very good they look too. My understanding is that they will work to the information you give them but if it's a carriage of a general type they already have in their range - suppose you wanted some rare Mk1 that had never been done (!) - then they would also make use of known and published dimensions. You'd be in something of a queue but you could also reflect that you would be doing a public service since the carriage is then in their catalogue.

[MikeTrice]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Mike,

 

Then there is an issue with the arrangement of the cladding bands on the preserved locomotives*, as the photo of 2512 still doesn't look like any of the preserved examples. The tip of the V in the photographs of Bittern and SNG for example, is further away from the second firebox cladding band than in your image of 2512, my image of 2509 and Bucoups image of 2509 and friend. Unfortunately, the shine of the boiler makes it impossible to see how the cladding band terminates in the photo of 2512 but I bet it is not just cut of short as in the preserved examples.

My understanding is the smokebox is fixed at the front and the firebox slides when the boiler expands/contacts. The cab is fixed to the footplate and is not fixed to the boiler. This would make trying to compare gaps between the tip of the "V" and the second boiler band unreliable.

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, stewartingram said:

I hate changing the subject when something is in mid-flow, but I have  a question for Tony if I may please?

I know the subject has been mentioned a few times, but with nearly 650,000 posts to wade through I think it is easier if I ask ?

Valve gear rivets - I believe you you dressmakers pins, or something similar? I have a Hornby W1 which has decided to shed a link in its valve gear. The rivets are nowhere to be seen. I'm loth to return it for the sake of a simple repair though. Can you confirm what you use for rivets, and where they are obtainable please? It would be good to get a stock in for future use.

 

Stewart

Good evening Stewart,

 

What I use currently for valve gear construction are sequin and bead pins. The brand name is Pony, and they're all brass. Their dimensions are 16mm x .65mm and are sold in plastic round boxes with a contents weight of 35 gms (which is a lot). 

 

I acquired them from Reticule Fabrics in Kendal, about five years ago for £3.00. They'll last out my lifetime, and others' lifetimes as well!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[APOLLO]

Useful info Tony - I too need to repair valve gear on a couple of locos.

 

A quick search on Google for Pony Sequin Bead pins brings up several suppliers.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=pony+sequin+bead+pins&oq=pony+sequin+bead+pins&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.9851j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Brit15

[Killybegs]

Like you, Tony, I think my supply of dressmakers' pins will outlive my modelling career. In addition to valve gear, I also use them for brake hangers as the head soldered against the inside of the frames gives a stronger joint than with wire.

[Stanley Melrose]

£2.49 and free postage from Amazon . . . 

[Tony Wright]

54 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Useful info Tony - I too need to repair valve gear on a couple of locos.

 

A quick search on Google for Pony Sequin Bead pins brings up several suppliers.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=pony+sequin+bead+pins&oq=pony+sequin+bead+pins&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.9851j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Brit15

Thanks for that.

 

The pins must be brass; the code on my box is # 25202

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[gr.king]

A4 cab roof bulges...

 

What I see is that with the possible exception of Andrew's picture of 2509 Silver Link, all of the large images from helpful angles of the area that we've seen recently show that the front edges of the bulge vee align with the rear adges of those cover strips (of whatever shape) and not with their front edges. I wholly take the point that boiler expansion has some bearing on this relationship, but would it change things by as much as a couple of inches? If we go as far as to count bolt heads along the edges of the bulge, ahead of the vent runners, it seems that not all locos are / were the same. The two preserved examples are seen with four evenly spaced bolts plus a more closely spaced fifth in the corner. 2509 and 2512, seen new in official photos seem to have 5 + 1 instead, but that does not put the front edge of the bulge in line with the front edge of the cover strip on 2512, it remains in line with the rear edge. 

Even allowing for the fact that 2509 was originally built before the design was fully formalised in drawings, perhaps there is reason to suspect that just the angle of the view in Andrew's picture is making it look as if the edge of the bulge might be further forward? Alternatively, if 2509 actually did have it initially further forward, might it be that case that being built before completion of a full set of drawings, and possibly before livery had been decided, in the bare metal state the "tidy" place to put the front edge appeared to be in line with the front edge of the cover strip. When it was later realised that this created a stagger in the boundary between paint colours rather than a smooth single line, were the rest of the locos built to avoid that anomaly?

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Kodachrome 25 in a Leica

My Dad used Kodachrome 25 in a Zorki. He took nearly everything at 1/60s f8. They still look good to me!

Edited January 30, 2022 by St Enodoc
speling

[Headstock]

16 minutes ago, gr.king said:

A4 cab roof bulges...

 

What I see is that with the possible exception of Andrew's picture of 2509 Silver Link, all of the large images from helpful angles of the area that we've seen recently show that the front edges of the bulge vee align with the rear adges of those cover strips (of whatever shape) and not with their front edges. I wholly take the point that boiler expansion has some bearing on this relationship, but would it change things by as much as a couple of inches? If we go as far as to count bolt heads along the edges of the bulge, ahead of the vent runners, it seems that not all locos are / were the same. The two preserved examples are seen with four evenly spaced bolts plus a more closely spaced fifth in the corner. 2509 and 2512, seen new in official photos seem to have 5 + 1 instead, but that does not put the front edge of the bulge in line with the front edge of the cover strip on 2512, it remains in line with the rear edge. 

Even allowing for the fact that 2509 was originally built before the design was fully formalised in drawings, perhaps there is reason to suspect that just the angle of the view in Andrew's picture is making it look as if the edge of the bulge might be further forward? Alternatively, if 2509 actually did have it initially further forward, might it be that case that being built before completion of a full set of drawings, and possibly before livery had been decided, in the bare metal state the "tidy" place to put the front edge appeared to be in line with the front edge of the cover strip. When it was later realised that this created a stagger in the boundary between paint colours rather than a smooth single line, were the rest of the locos built to avoid that anomaly?

 

Good evening Graeme,

 

just to clarify, I've only claimed as originally built.

 

As can be seen by comparing the cab of Mallard and SNG above, my other claim was that preserved engines are unreliable when looking at details of locomotives built over eighty years ago.

 

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

My Dad used Kodachrome 25 in a Zorki. He took nearly everything at 1/60s f8. They still look good to me!

The Zorki 4 was my first 35mm camera, and a very good one at that, but I was only doing black and white back then (Ilford FP4 being my usual choice of film). I passed it on to my younger brother when I got an SLR. When it eventually failed he bought the later model (4K?) to replace it so he must have liked it.

 

I really must get a scanner and digitise my old negatives....

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

23 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Tony,

 

So, there are two stacking processes? One, in the camera itself, and the other in a photo programme afterwards? Can the two be combined? The process is certainly effective, either way.

 

I can spend up to an hour getting the most from an image (but, then, many are published in print, so that time taken is essential). What takes the time is cutting round items such as telegraph poles, signals and building roofs, etc, to give a neutral background which the designer can then do what he/she likes afterwards (though NOT digital smoke!). However long it takes, it's still much quicker than using transparent, self-adhesive frisk film, a scalpel and designers' gouache on a 12" x 8" print; I'd never want to go back to that. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Hi Tony,

 

My Lumix will do either, but not both together.

 

The in-camera facility shoots a short MP4 movie sequence whilst shifting the focus of the lens as it sees fit, I then merge the images, either by selecting which [edit] areas of the frame I want to use, or pressing "auto merge". I did it both ways for comparison to begin with but the camera generally seems to manage it better than me! The sharp areas from each "frame" are then united and the combined image saved as a jpeg.  

 

It will also produce sequences of still images (RAW or jpeg) using a procedure called "Focus Bracketing", whereby the user can set various parameters. These include the depth of each step (in mm) between which the lens will be refocussed, nearest and furthest focussing points, and the number of frames to be shot. The latter can be up to 999, which I suspect to be massive overkill! These cannot be combined in the camera.   

 

I've not yet tried the second method as I don't have the necessary software in my laptop, and the in-camera route seems to have suited me OK up to now.

 

John

Edited January 31, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[great central]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks for that.

 

The pins must be brass; the code on my box is # 25202

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

For those who would rather buy things from a shop instead of contributing more to the waste packaging mountain. Yes I know they're more expensive but hardly going to break the bank at around 1p each.

 

https://www.hobbycraft.co.uk/hemline-brass-craft-pins-450-pack/566984-1000?query=brass pins

Edited January 31, 2022 by great central
Missing word

[St Enodoc]

34 minutes ago, great central said:

 

For those who would rather buy things from a shop instead of contributing more to the waste packaging mountain. Yes I know they're more expensive but hardly going to break the bank at around 1p each.

 

https://www.hobbycraft.co.uk/hemline-brass-craft-pins-450-pack/566984-1000?query=brass pins

...and for those of us down under, you can get 0.55mm diameter x 26mm long brass lace pins, made by Birch Creative, from Spotlight (usual disclaimer). I use them, not for valve gear, but for Norman Solomon-style point blade fixings.

[AdamOrmorod]

12 hours ago, gr.king said:

A4 cab roof bulges...

 

What I see is that with the possible exception of Andrew's picture of 2509 Silver Link, all of the large images from helpful angles of the area that we've seen recently show that the front edges of the bulge vee align with the rear adges of those cover strips (of whatever shape) and not with their front edges. I wholly take the point that boiler expansion has some bearing on this relationship, but would it change things by as much as a couple of inches? If we go as far as to count bolt heads along the edges of the bulge, ahead of the vent runners, it seems that not all locos are / were the same. The two preserved examples are seen with four evenly spaced bolts plus a more closely spaced fifth in the corner. 2509 and 2512, seen new in official photos seem to have 5 + 1 instead, but that does not put the front edge of the bulge in line with the front edge of the cover strip on 2512, it remains in line with the rear edge. 

Even allowing for the fact that 2509 was originally built before the design was fully formalised in drawings, perhaps there is reason to suspect that just the angle of the view in Andrew's picture is making it look as if the edge of the bulge might be further forward? Alternatively, if 2509 actually did have it initially further forward, might it be that case that being built before completion of a full set of drawings, and possibly before livery had been decided, in the bare metal state the "tidy" place to put the front edge appeared to be in line with the front edge of the cover strip. When it was later realised that this created a stagger in the boundary between paint colours rather than a smooth single line, were the rest of the locos built to avoid that anomaly?

It occurred to me that if painted apple green the front edge of the cab is typically black, so would join nicely with the longer bulge on 2509 as built. However I then thought to have a look at a P2, and I found this image of 2001 with the bulge in line with the v! 

 

Photo copyright from Douglas Miller from gettyimages

 

Also apologies for mid-conversation username change, I made this account years ago and forgotten until this discussion that I'd picked a slightly strange one!

 

Adam

[FarrMan]

12 hours ago, gr.king said:

I wholly take the point that boiler expansion has some bearing on this relationship, but would it change things by as much as a couple of inches?

Mike Sharman in 'A Guide to Locomotive Building', p.8 states 'Add to this the fact that the boiler/smokebox and firebox units were only usually attached at the cylinder end, the rest expanding and contracting rearwards some 6" in length in a big Pacific - .....'

 

Lloyd

[FarrMan]

17 hours ago, 4630 said:

It's the too intense (saturated) colour that irritates me.  My perception is that colours in the real world under 'normal' lighting conditions are rarely as saturated as they appear to be presented in some magazines.

Colour saturation could also depend on the location. I remember (nearly 35 years ago now) that in the Antipodes, the sun being so much brighter, the colours looked so much more intense that we are are used to in the UK, especially here in the Highlands of Scotland! Perhaps a scene set in Southern US, for instance, should look 'too intense' to our native eyes.

 

Lloyd

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, FarrMan said:

Mike Sharman in 'A Guide to Locomotive Building', p.8 states 'Add to this the fact that the boiler/smokebox and firebox units were only usually attached at the cylinder end, the rest expanding and contracting rearwards some 6" in length in a big Pacific - .....'

 

That's a ludicrous statement. I would have expected Sharman to know better. A glance at a GA will immediately show how absurd such a degree of movement would be. The thermal expansion coefficient of steel is around 10 ppm/°C. The boiling point of water at 250 psi is about 205 °C; taking that as the temperature of the boiler plates, from an ambient temperature of say 5 °C on a cold day, that's an expansion of 0.2% or about ¾" over 30 ft. 

 

The boiler cladding will be at a very much lower temperature so will move very much less - depending, though, on how it's attached to the boiler plates.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Compound2632

[APOLLO]

Concorde measured nearly 204ft in length and stretched between 6 and 10 inches in flight due to heating of the airframe at supersonic speeds.

 

As the fastest A4 did 126mph I don't think it expanded at all due to it's speed (or as Compound's reply above, just a little thermal expansion due to boiler temperature) !!

 

Brit15

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

As the fastest A4 did 126mph I don't think it expanded at all due to it's speed 

 

Rather the opposite: from the point of view of a lineside observer, there would be something under a gnat's whisker of Lorentz contraction!

[FarrMan]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's a ludicrous statement. I would have expected Sharman to know better. A glance at a GA will immediately show how absurd such a degree of movement would be. The thermal expansion coefficient of steel is around 10 ppm/°C. The boiling point of water at 250 psi is about 205 °C; taking that as the temperature of the boiler plates, from an ambient temperature of say 5 °C on a cold day, that's an expansion of 0.2% or about ¾" over 30 ft. 

 

The boiler cladding will be at a very much lower temperature so will move very much less - depending, though, on how it's attached to the boiler plates.

Thank you for that clarification. Firebox temperatures would be rather higher, but I had thought that the comment that I quoted sounded far too much, but am glad to have it confirmed. I just had not bothered to work it out from the coefficient of expansion of steel. I know that it can be significant at high temperatures - One of the buildings that collapsed at the World Trade Centre was due to a steel beam (above a fuel tank that was on fire) expanding sufficiently to push the adjacent beam off its supporting column. Perhaps Mike Sharman was meaning to refer to the length of the expansion slide plate?

 

Lloyd

[gr.king]

Probable maximum movement then of the rear of the boiler by less than one-third of the width of a typical boiler band or of that similar cab-boiler cover strip? Not enough to make the difference between alignment of a fixed cab with the front or rear edge of a band, and if in the case of the A4s both the roof bulge and the cover strip are fixed only to the cab and are free to slide over the boiler, then boiler expansion makes no significant difference to the relationship under discussion.

[Headstock]

14 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

My understanding is the smokebox is fixed at the front and the firebox slides when the boiler expands/contacts. The cab is fixed to the footplate and is not fixed to the boiler. This would make trying to compare gaps between the tip of the "V" and the second boiler band unreliable.

 

That would be my understanding re the relationship between boiler and cab. The photo that I posted of SNGs extended cab has been removed, here is another version that has no copywrite issues. Incidentally, the cladding band is present just not so visible  from this angle due to a trick of the light. SNG has its original L shaped cladding band, Mallard does not.

 

 

[t-b-g]

17 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

That would be my understanding re the relationship between boiler and cab. The photo that I posted of SNGs extended cab has been removed, here is another version that has no copywrite issues. Incidentally, the cladding band is present just not so visible  from this angle due to a trick of the light. SNG has its original L shaped cladding band, Mallard does not.

 

 

 

A super illustration of why boiler bands on many models are way too thick! Even on something shown way over life sized for a 4mm model, they have almost no thickness at all.