Wright writes.....

[grahame]

We tried that 20 years ago at Olympia, Martin. It killed the running stone dead.

 

But was great for the dancing, probably.

 

G.

[Class O]

I tend to agree with this, watching old film of trains gives some idea of the kind of speed we should be looking for on models in my opinion. Far too often I see layouts seemingly operating to show how slow their trains can go.

This is often the case with post steam era layouts I think. One I watched a while ago I wanted to tell the operators to get a move on. Their trains approached a station along a main line at snails pace, and left the same way. In my experience that is not always the way it happens, braking is left almost as late as possible, allowing for speed limits obviously, and acceleration is usually pretty smart as well, especially some of the most modern powerful units.

Lots of peoples only experience of steam locos are preserved ones, not run how the regular ones were......

[richard i]

Lots of peoples only experience of steam locos are preserved ones, not run how the regular ones were......

That's me.

Though i have tried to listen to others about how fast trains should really go and then gauge it off passing signals or buildings.

If anything Tony was always telling me to slow down. The exuberance of youth?

Richard

[Tony Wright]

Slow down!

I am forever telling our operators to drive slowly on Copenhagen Fields, which has no longitudinal compression, especially with the heavy mainline trains. However, true speed is quite deceptive in 2mm: the following videos show the trains moving at a fair clip, but in fact they look pretty sedate in the flesh.

 

 

Did the pics you took turn out OK Tony?

 

Tim

They did Tim, as I hope these show. 

 

 

 

 

Ironically, I'd have got more than three pictures if the trains had NOT been running, slowly or otherwise. Somebody knocking a train off didn't help, either. 

 

Regarding 'scale running' on a model railway, I've found a useful indicator is to video passing trains from eye level (GOPRO cameras are brilliant at this). On the first attempts, every train appears to be travelling far too fast. 

[Tony Wright]

Point taken, Tony. I was using your name as a collective author, no offense to the many involved.

 

But it doesn't detract from the achievement thus obtained.

Thanks Paul,

 

I don't think for a moment any of the other builders took the slightest offence. Anyway, most of them don't bother with RMweb, so they won't have read the post. 

 

'The achievement' is, of course, principally down to them. Apart from my building most of the locos and passenger rolling stock, laying the non-scenic trackwork, installing much of the basic wiring and doing some of the basic scenery, Little Bytham is the work of others. Though it might seem repetitive, I 'insist' on giving credit where it's due. I've seen too many layouts where loads of praise is heaped on the owner when, in fact, he or she, has contributed very little in a practical way. That's all right as long as that's ALWAYS acknowledged (my apologies for shouting) but that isn't always the case. That's why, and yet more repetition, I'm far more drawn to the 'humbler' personal creations rather than the ability to just write cheques (even though I've been paid for my services to commissioners in that fashion on many occasions). Without appearing noble (which I'm definitely not), that's why I try and help modellers to do things for themselves where and when I can.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[Atso]

They did Tim, as I hope these show. 

 

Copenhagen Fields 30.jpg

 

Copenhagen Fields 31.jpg

 

Copenhagen Fields 32.jpg

 

Ironically, I'd have got more than three pictures if the trains had NOT been running, slowly or otherwise. Somebody knocking a train off didn't help, either. 

 

Regarding 'scale running' on a model railway, I've found a useful indicator is to video passing trains from eye level (GOPRO cameras are brilliant at this). On the first attempts, every train appears to be travelling far too fast. 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

These are some wonderful photographs of one of my favourite layouts. The factors contributing to this statement are that Copenhagen Fields broadly represents my own modelling interests (only far better than I could achieve), a North London 1930s (ish) LNER period layout representing almost a scale mile of visible track and to 2mm scale to boot (even though I model in N gauge!). In addition, the fact that the layout can stand up to such scrutiny from the camera is amazing!

 

With regard to scale running I use the timing method to judge the speed of my trains. My modest embryonic layout is an L shape seven foot by 5 foot a locomotive completes roughly half a scale mile (or which around two thirds is visible) per lap. Therefore an A3 completing a lap in 30 seconds is doing roughly 60 miles per hour, while a freight completing a lap in one and a half minutes is 20 miles per hour, etc. It's really made me slow down my trains and made me realise that, just because my own space is modest, I can enjoy a reasonably lengthy run with an express. In addition, the likes of O.S. Nock used this method, timing the locomotive's progress between mileposts to ascertain the average speeds; all of which adds to the fun for me!

Edited December 5, 2016 by Atso

[Headstock]

I'm working on a projected layout based on the bottom end of Worsbrough, i've already tested trains on the 1 in 40 gradient.

 

Good Afternoon to you Mike,

 

what an exciting project. I guess you are looking at somewhere in the vicinity of Wentworth junction? The Worsbrough incline seems to have been largely forgotten in the grand scheme of things, no stations or fast expresses. The Lickey incline and Shap grab all the attention when it comes to banking operations, yet Worsbrough must have witnessed the most spectacular display of freight train operations ever seen in the UK. I have found one piece of film of a westbound mixed freight hammering its way up to Silkstone no1 tunnel at about walking pace, the exhausts from the four locomotives top and tailing the train are blasting skywards in a vertical plume.

 

I looked at a couple of options as regards modeling the incline, the most radical was to concentrate on the area between Silkstone no1 and no 2 tunnels so that a complete train would never be on view, A second proposal was for the scenic section to start at the exit of no2 tunnel and the overbridge that bisected the Barnsley line. It would then run up to a second overbridge not too far short of West Silkstone junction. This area had a lot going for it, scenically interesting, relatively simple and with restrictions on the overall length required The Worsbrough incline rises up from the tunnel on a long curve to meet the Barnsley line that ran above it on a ridge / embankment. it would actually be two separate roundy roundy layouts of double track configuration. The Barnsley line itself is of interest, being worked by GN quint sets and Gresley two and five sets, it even had newspaper vans from Manchester. Motive power was provided by classes C13, C14, D11, N5, J11 and latter class B1. In addition, there was also local freight services and a colliery just outside the village of Silkstone. When I was very young I had an uncle who lived at Silkstone common. We could walk to the bottom of his garden and into the fields beyond and look across at the line.

 

A friend and fellow modeler then got interested in the proposal. His own interests lay in operational potential, so the original idea was expanded to include West Silkstone junction. This requires a much more complicated and larger layout to handle the big freights at the junction. Currently, space is limited in the Shipley club rooms  as is the number of people required with the requisite skills to undertake such a project. At present, all that can be done is the design work that would ensure that the project is a runner if and when space and resources become available.

[glo41f]

Tony

 

Those pictures of CF are truly awesome and show modelling at its best. I suppose that this is what we are all striving for but sadly often never get near. The good thing is that we continue to strive and that is the message that you put in this thread so well. Mind you it gets difficult at times and for me on these dark days the shed is not an inviting place to go and do some modelling. (The wife does her sewing in a room in the house but I am condemned to the shed!).  So productivity is at a low ebb at present. I must say that I am very tempted with the idea of making a small 2mm layout which could easily live in a spare bedroom. The conversion kits for N scale locos make the stock situation rather easy but it is not cheap to start a new tack in our hobby.

 

Martin Long

[Poggy1165]

Scale speed is an interesting one. I have an old GC rule book that states that trains should be stopped on the handbrake, and the vacuum only used in emergency! Now, to me that means stations must have been entered really carefully.

 

OTOH, the late braking of GC (London extension) trains in BR days is so notorious that I have seen it called a 'GC stop'. So at some point, there was a radical change of culture.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Poggy1165

[Focalplane]

I vaguely remember listening to railwaymen talking about their trade, I think at Oswestry shed in the late 1950s (I used to skive off there on Sunday afternoons).  Many years later my wife gave me a Fire and Drive experience at Toddington (GWSR) for my 60th birthday and before we were let anywhere near City of Truro we had a short induction course.  Something that was said reminded me of the conversations I had listened to all those years ago.

 

One of the crew explained to us that you should never hurry a steam engine.

 

That statement is just as applicable leaving the shed as it is accelerating a top link express.  It's how we should strive to drive our models, though I do understand that people attending exhibitions won't necessarily understand that.

[Tony Wright]

Tony

 

Those pictures of CF are truly awesome and show modelling at its best. I suppose that this is what we are all striving for but sadly often never get near. The good thing is that we continue to strive and that is the message that you put in this thread so well. Mind you it gets difficult at times and for me on these dark days the shed is not an inviting place to go and do some modelling. (The wife does her sewing in a room in the house but I am condemned to the shed!).  So productivity is at a low ebb at present. I must say that I am very tempted with the idea of making a small 2mm layout which could easily live in a spare bedroom. The conversion kits for N scale locos make the stock situation rather easy but it is not cheap to start a new tack in our hobby.

 

Martin Long

As always, thanks again Martin. 

 

I'll dig out some more shots of CF. 

 

Your point about continuing to strive is well-made. And, speaking of such, I posted the picture below about 18 months ago. 

 

 

A regular visitor is my good friend Geoff West. He originally came for tuition with his model-making, but now it's more of a social visit. Early in 2015 he brought this; bought as part of an ebay purchase, he asked my advice as to what to do with this DJH A1. 'Bury it' I seem to recall was my answer. Please note the buffers attached underneath the cab. 

 

 

He didn't take my advice and today he brought this. I helped him add the last of the valve gear (he made it) and what'll be 60123 fairly romped round LB. It is the same model and, if you look closely, there are elements where not everything is straight and true. However, what a transformation! In terms of performance, this'll beat any RTR equivalent out of sight. It took 11 cars (mainly kit-built) with ease. The other day a Bachmann A2 (one of only three RTR Pacifics I still keep) just polished its wheels on the same rake. 

 

I think what gives me the greatest pleasure (having acted really only as a teacher) is the fact that Geoff has done almost all of this himself. Yes, no doubt those who don't try to model themselves will cite that a Bachmann A1 might be visually better overall, but so what? The RTR product still needs detailing and fiddling with to get it correct (and it's still feeble in comparison), but I say again, so what? Anyone can buy an RTR equivalent (as long as they have the money) and anyone (as long as they have the money) can ask someone to detail/improve/renumber/rename it should they feel incapable of doing it themselves (though why, rather escapes me, but that is another subject). It takes someone who's prepared to have a go themselves to make a fist of that A1. I wouldn't have done! Rescuing such a basket case as this I considered way beyond me. 

 

 

Earlier this year, Geoff bought a couple of the late Andrew Kinsella's locos, including a Jamieson J39 - this one. Having stripped it, repainted, lettered and weathered it, this is the result. It isn't highly-detailed but it's his own work in finishing it off. I particularly like the weathering. 

 

 

He also altered a Bachmann J39. Again, the weathering is excellent. It was amusing in a way but, despite the RTR loco being more detailed and even more accurate, we both preferred the Jamieson one. It had more 'presence'. It was, of course, more powerful. 

 

So, please, despite the winter weather and the low ebb of productivity, all you modellers out there (and all who post on this thread are real modellers in my book), do have a go. There is nothing in my view as satisfying as seeing something you've made run round a layout. Far more so than an RTR product (though, as I've said many times, I have great respect for those who improve such items themselves) and definitely more satisfying than seeing something run round that someone else has done for you (the generic 'you'). Why not give it a try? 

 

Edited because I couldn't spell Bachmann!

Edited December 7, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Memphis32]

On the speed issue, a guide I often use in 12":1' is to halve the mph number to give metres per second. A few extra conversions leads to multiplying the target mph number by 6 to give mm per second in 4mm:1' (or multiply by 6 then divide by 10 for cm/s). So 60mph would be 36cm/s, which surprised me somewhat!!

[Tony Wright]

As promised, more pictures of Copenhagen Fields. 

 

These were taken some years ago when I visited the Model Railway Club. It is outstanding modelling indeed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

And, some more. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously, a considerable amount more work has taken place since I took these pictures. 

 

It's the finest evocation of the southern end of the ex-GNR main line I have ever seen. 

 

 

Just out of interest, with regard to the last shot, I stood in Mrs Wilberforce's garden above the real Copenhagen Tunnel. How things change! Not for the better, I have to say, from those wonderful Ladykillers' days of over 50 years before (now over 60 years before).  

Edited December 5, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Some little time ago, I was asked if I had any pictures of modified Hornby locos for possible inclusion in the Hornby/BRM calendar for next year. As it happened, they were not required (seeing Andy's pictures, I'm not surprised). However, they might still be of interest, if only to show how RTR locos can be improved. 

 

 

 

This is an A3 to which I applied my usual 'refinements' - new bogie wheels, renumber/rename, close-couple loco to tender, lamps, a crew, real coal in the tender, etc. Tom Foster weathered it to perfection. I still own this model. 

 

 

Another A3 with alterations, this time all my own work. This one has been sold. 

 

 

The usual mods plus an Ian Rathbone paint finish mean I still own this A4.

 

 

I now no longer own this one, but it's had all my usual modifications. 

 

 

This A4 is all Tom Foster's work. 

 

 

This was an original tender-drive Britannia, to which I fitted a Comet chassis, renumbered, renamed and weathered it. 

 

 

Renumbering and weathering personalised this Hornby O1. It's now another person's property. 

 

I offer the above not as examples of high-quality modelling (though Tom's and Ian's work is top-drawer), but just as illustrations of what can be achieved with a little personal determination. Having such high-quality starting points has opened the hobby to many more folk, so the improvements in more recent years to RTR items should not be dismissed. That said, for reasons already described, I still prefer to make my own locos. That's why many of the above have been sold on - to very happy new owners, I have to say. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Mallard60022]

Modified Hornby O1 03.jpg

 

Renumbering and weathering personalised this Hornby O1. It's now another person's property. 

 

I offer the above not as examples of high-quality modelling (though Tom's and Ian's work is top-drawer), but just as illustrations of what can be achieved with a little personal determination. Having such high-quality starting points has opened the hobby to many more folk, so the improvements in more recent years to RTR items should not be dismissed. That said, for reasons already described, I still prefer to make my own locos. That's why many of the above have been sold on - to very happy new owners, I have to say. 

Love those last pictures Tony. Great shot of the 'proper job' Signal Box and that Brit looks brilliant. 

Just as an aside, I have a set of Isinglass drawings for the O1, showing the Westinghouse (?) air pump gear fitted to the Tyne Dock/Consett Loco's, that I am happy to pass on to anyone that might make use of them as they are now of no use to me at all.

However, the masterpiece is that Phoenix DJH kit in post 13161. What a great job he has done with that heap of junk. Quite remarkable.

Phil

Edited December 5, 2016 by Mallard60022

[Tony Wright]

Love those last pictures Tony. Great shot of the 'proper job' Signal Box and that Brit looks brilliant. 

Just as an aside, I have a set of Isinglass drawings for the O1, showing the Westinghouse (?) air pump gear fitted to the Tyne Dock/Consett Loco's, that I am happy to pass on to anyone that might make use of them as they are now of no use to me at all.

However, the masterpiece is that Phoenix DJH kit in post 13161. What a great job he has done with that heap of junk. Quite remarkable.

Phil

Phil,

 

I'm sure someone out there would like the O1 drawings. They're not really of use to me, so may I ask anyone interested to PM you, please? 

 

With regard to Geoff's Phoenix, I was staggered how he'd succeeded in resurrecting the thing. As I said, I'm delighted he needs my help less and less. That's what 'helping' others in their modelling should be all about. A bit of assistance here and there and then no more is needed. Self-reliance and personal modelling. What more can one ask? 

 

On another tack, I've managed to find a new home for at least one more model on behalf of a bereaved family. Others might soon follow suit.

 

Honest Tone's of Little Bytham I've been called. What a kind epithet.  

[jrg1]

As always, thanks again Martin. 

 

I'll dig out some more shots of CF. 

 

Your point about continuing to strive is well-made. And, speaking of such, I posted the picture below about 18 months ago. 

 

Dsc_1119.jpg

 

A regular visitor is my good friend Geoff West. He originally came for tuition with his model-making, but now it's more of a social visit. Early in 2015 he brought this; bought as part of an ebay purchase, he asked my advice as to what to do with this DJH A1. 'Bury it' I seem to recall was my answer. Please note the buffers attached underneath the cab. 

 

A1.jpg

 

He didn't take my advice and today he brought this. I helped him add the last of the valve gear (he made it) and what'll be 60123 fairly romped round LB. It is the same model and, if you look closely, there are elements where not everything is straight and true. However, what a transformation! In terms of performance, this'll beat any RTR equivalent out of sight. It took 11 cars (mainly kit-built) with ease. The other day a Bachmann A2 (one of only three RTR Pacifics I still keep) just polished its wheels on the same rake. 

 

I think what gives me the greatest pleasure (having acted really only as a teacher) is the fact that Geoff has done almost all of this himself. Yes, no doubt those who don't try to model themselves will cite that a Bachmann A1 might be visually better overall, but so what? The RTR product still needs detailing and fiddling with to get it correct (and it's still feeble in comparison), but I say again, so what? Anyone can buy an RTR equivalent (as long as they have the money) and anyone (as long as they have the money) can ask someone to detail/improve/renumber/rename it should they feel incapable of doing it themselves (though why, rather escapes me, but that is another subject). It takes someone who's prepared to have a go themselves to make a fist of that A1. I wouldn't have done! Rescuing such a basket case as this I considered way beyond me. 

 

Jamieson J39.jpg

 

Earlier this year, Geoff bought a couple of the late Andrew Kinsella's locos, including a Jamieson J39 - this one. Having stripped it, repainted, lettered and weathered it, this is the result. It isn't highly-detailed but it's his own work in finishing it off. I particularly like the weathering. 

 

Bachmann J39.jpg

 

He also altered a Bachmamm J39. Again, the weathering is excellent. It was amusing in a way but, despite the RTR loco being more detailed and even more accurate, we both preferred the Jamieson one. It had more 'presence'. It was, of course, more powerful. 

 

So, please, despite the winter weather and the low ebb of productivity, all you modellers out there (and all who post on this thread are real modellers in my book), do have a go. There is nothing in my view as satisfying as seeing something you've made run round a layout. Far more so than an RTR product (though, as I've said many times, I have great respect for those who improve such items themselves) and definitely more satisfying than seeing something run round that someone else has done for you (the generic 'you'). Why not give it a try? 

A truly impressive transformation-as you say vastly more presence.  Congratulations-I will strive harder with my efforts.

[Guest Brighton_JunctionLNER]

(GOPRO cameras are brilliant at this). 

are you still considering getting one? 

[Tony Wright]

are you still considering getting one? 

Probably Jesse,

 

Though I'll have to learn how to operate it and then learn how to process the results. 

 

For the information of others who might be interested, when Jesse was over a fortnight ago he took some images of trains running on LB with his minute GOPRO camera (it's designed for fitting on to cycle helmets and the like). The results were stunning - the depth of field goes from an inch in front of the camera to infinite and the resolution is incredible. The problem is the sequence sizes are far too big to load on to RMweb threads. 

 

Can anyone out there help as to how to shrink them in size, please? I haven't a clue. 

[jrg1]

Loved the model of Copenhagen Fields-compared to the lifeless, sterile and bland present day minimum railway reality

[t-b-g]

The way I work out speeds on models (when no gadget speedo is available) is to base everything on a mile per minute being equal to 60mph. A mile in 4mm scale is as near 70ft as makes no difference so a model travelling 70ft in a minute is doing 60 scale mph. A model doing the same distance in 2 minutes is doing 30mph.

 

Of course most of us don't have 70ft of model railway but it is easy to find two fixed points on your layout and proportion the length and time based on those dimensions, so a train doing 60mph will cover one tenth of that, (7ft), in one tenth of the time, (6 seconds). Or one doing 30mph scale speed will cover 7ft in 12 seconds. You don't really need to be too precise and once you get a couple of speeds in your head, it is fairly easy to go a bit faster than 6 seconds to do 70mph or a bit slower than 12 seconds to do 25mph. It isn't too difficult to make up a full table of what times over a certain distance represent what scale speeds if you want proper accuracy.

 

I saw one table based on number of revolutions of a driving wheel of certain sizes. Have you ever tried counting rpm at a scale 70mph on a moving train? I do know a real professor who counted rpm on model railway motors using a strobe light but he is a lot cleverer than me!

[Tony Wright]

A truly impressive transformation-as you say vastly more presence.  Congratulations-I will strive harder with my efforts.

Many thanks,

 

I think what impresses me more than anything else, and not just with Geoff's work, is that almost all the folk I'm assisting are either newcomers to the delights of loco/stock-building, are inexperienced, are returning to railway modelling or are just beginning - or mixtures of the four categories, and that after a few 'lessons' they have little need of my assistance. I put it down to their being good learners rather than my teaching. 

 

Here are just a few examples, if I may? 

 

 

This was an early stage of the 'Lazarus' process in the case of Geoff's A1.

 

 

David Gwynne is just starting in making locos. After a day's tuition, he'd got this far and really needs my help no more. 

 

 

David West did all of this himself, just needing a tiny bit of help to adjust this A2/1 to ensure it then ran beautifully. 

 

 

Tom Foster needed nothing in the way of my help to weather this selection of Panniers but I'm helping him with his loco-building. 

 

 

 

And, about four lessons saw a 16-year old build his first loco kit. It should be in BRM before long. The best thing is that Jack no longer needs my assistance. 

 

The work of guys like the above represent to me that of the unsung heroes of this hobby. With respect to them, they're not that well-known (though Tom is becoming that way - with justification), they're extremely modest about their achievements and they're having a go. They're not RTR-dependent and certainly don't ask others to do their modelling for them. 

 

Without appearing too florid, it's guys (and girls) like these who carry the future of the hobby in my view. Fortunately, there are many others. 

 

 

[Corbs]

Probably Jesse,

 

Though I'll have to learn how to operate it and then learn how to process the results. 

 

For the information of others who might be interested, when Jesse was over a fortnight ago he took some images of trains running on LB with his minute GOPRO camera (it's designed for fitting on to cycle helmets and the like). The results were stunning - the depth of field goes from an inch in front of the camera to infinite and the resolution is incredible. The problem is the sequence sizes are far too big to load on to RMweb threads. 

 

Can anyone out there help as to how to shrink them in size, please? I haven't a clue. 

 

Hello Tony, is it an image sequence you are trying to shrink, or a video one?

 

If it's an image, photobucket does a good job of resizing images for forums automatically. If it's video, YouTube or Vimeo will do the same thing (you need to sign up for accounts for all of these, though). You also have the option of posting videos in a way that only people with the link to the video can see it (and it won't appear in searches) if you so wish. Vimeo has an option to password-protect videos as well.

 

On the DJH A1 rescue above, someone was either quite confused or thought an A1 well tank was a novel idea!

Edited December 6, 2016 by Corbs

[Tony Wright]

Hello Tony, is it an image sequence you are trying to shrink, or a video one?

 

If it's an image, photobucket does a good job of resizing images for forums automatically. If it's video, YouTube or Vimeo will do the same thing (you need to sign up for accounts for all of these, though). You also have the option of posting videos in a way that only people with the link to the video can see it (and it won't appear in searches) if you so wish. Vimeo has an option to password-protect videos as well.

 

On the DJH A1 rescue above, someone was either quite confused or thought an A1 well tank was a novel idea!

Good morning Corbs,

 

Many thanks for your response. My apologies for being so ignorant that I don't understand any of it. 

 

This has nothing to do with your communication. I'm sure to the majority of those with intelligence, it makes perfect sense; but not me. 

 

Perhaps Jesse can tell us if it's an image sequence or a video one. Whatever they are, each clip is around 45 seconds long on average. 

 

Many thanks again.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.