Wright writes.....

[grob1234]

I don't wish to cause argument about this, but I'll admit that this post made me sad.

I've been saying 'hi' to people all my life, especially when I do not know who they are, and 'I'm good' is part of my regular parlance.

I would never have imagined that either of these would cause someone to feel insulted, I had always thought that they were friendly phrases.

Surely language is flexible? Words and manners change over time and of course between different regions.

David Mitchell presented a rather nice little radio programme about manners and their origin, how the perception of manners and etiquette changes etc.

It's worth a listen, it's on youtube if anyone wishes to seek it out.

I'm not really sure where I was going with this post but did want to present my point of view.

 

That's an interesting point you make there.

 

Perhaps a better way to gauge someones communications is the overall tone of what they're saying?

 

Today at work I was called 'bro' by a junior colleague. I'm 33, so not particularly old, but I really dislike the term 'bro', almost as much as I dislike the use of 'man', as in 'yeah man, it was great'.

 

However, I could see that he was trying to be friendly, and certainly no malice was intended, so I smiled, and replied politely. He was after all thanking me.

 

I believe generally with the written word also that one can ascertain the tone of someones communications, its clear if someone was being rude or disrespectful, and if they are seeking help and being rude at the same time then that would be rather strange, I certainly wouldn't help someone who was rude at first contact. So, I'd place tone above how someone uses language as my initial BS filter. Just my 10 pence worth you understand, init....

[Tony Wright]

I don't wish to cause argument about this, but I'll admit that this post made me sad.

I've been saying 'hi' to people all my life, especially when I do not know who they are, and 'I'm good' is part of my regular parlance.

I would never have imagined that either of these would cause someone to feel insulted, I had always thought that they were friendly phrases.

Surely language is flexible? Words and manners change over time and of course between different regions.

David Mitchell presented a rather nice little radio programme about manners and their origin, how the perception of manners and etiquette changes etc.

It's worth a listen, it's on youtube if anyone wishes to seek it out.

I'm not really sure where I was going with this post but did want to present my point of view.

Thanks for your comments.

 

I certainly didn't feel insulted by the initial greeting mentioned. I just thought it was way too informal. 

 

You're right that language changes, but the tenets of grammar do not (or should not) change. In my last job as a professional model railway journalist, if I'd have adopted such 'flexibility' in my writing as saying something worked 'good' (which is just the same as your response of 'good' when someone asks as to your health), I'd have been pilloried. 'Good' in both contexts has nothing at all to do with offending anyone, it's just wrong. It's excuses for that sort of thing which make me sad. 

 

In a similar vein, I've almost exploded this morning whilst listening to the radio when a presenter (a professional?) stated that 'Me and a friend had watched a complete DVD set (of tripe, I imagine) last night'. Where do they get such illiterates from? 

 

I know we live in a world of communication now where almost anything goes. However, because of my innate conservatism (with a small 'c') I'm not entirely comfortable with change. Means of addressing folk have also changed, but I respect what was considered 'good manners' in the past. The manners which, in days gone, would ensure a child did not address adults by their Christian names (remember that?). Over 20 years ago I was walking through my garage to my workshop when one of my sons' friends (he'd be about 12) addressed me as Tony. He seemed to shrink in terror as I adopted my sternest pedagogue stance and demanded, in future, he address me as Mr. Wright! The incident had an hilarious aftermath, at least for me. A week or so afterwards I couldn't help overhearing the same youth mutter in my direction 'Victorian Dad'. For readers of VIZ (like me) you'll know of the character; non-readers will have to imagine what's meant. Once he knew I'd overheard he went absolutely grey with what looked like fear as I strode towards him, only to pump his hand and congratulate him on giving me the greatest compliment possible. He just stood there looking rather puzzled. 

 

All the above said, this thread is really about making things. 

 

 

Things like this chassis to go under a SE Finecast streamliner. The choice of the older Romford wheels is because it'll have to operate over Peco track - RP25 Markits do work, though they can drop into flangeways on occasions. The other reason is that these wheels will be red, and the non-blackened centres are easier to paint. The bogie wheels are the right sort, though. 

 

At the moment, it's at the running stage. How should I describe it? 'Hi, yous out there, me's just done dead good. De fing runs good, I maked it good and and me's feeling dead well abour it. 

 

I rest my case. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[jwealleans]

Yo, blood, dat look well bad. Respect.

[Atso]

In the words of some of the local inhabitants who lived around the area where I held my first employment in the late 1990s:

 

'Man, that looks sick like bro, init. Total respect for that, like. Totally well book, init'.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Atso

[Killybegs]

I often get called 'boy' over here. A bit strange as I have passed three score years and ten and the other person is usually younger than me. Maybe I should be flattered but I used to get quite p*ssed off by it. Apparently it's just an 'Irish thing' and is not meant to be derogatory. 

 

Anyway, as Tony says, we should really be talking about making things. So on the subject of white metal kits and thinning down edges, this 2021 is from a much modified a Nucast kit. I did throw away the roof and fabricate a new one from brass sheet. The chassis is Alan Gibson. 

 

[Horsetan]

 

 

.....How should I describe it? 'Hi, yous out there, me's just done dead good. De fing runs good, I maked it good and and me's feeling dead well abour it.

 

Yo, blood, dat look well bad. Respect.

 

 

....'Man, that looks sick like bro, init. Total respect for that, like. Totally well book, init'.

 

There's a song about that:

 

[billbedford]

I recall a discussion on the telly some little time ago about how some employers were sifting through application forms (there being far more applicants than positions available). On the one side was a well-dressed (some might say distinguished-looking) gentleman who was a principal employer (I forget which company). He stated that he went through any CVs and immediately dumped any which were badly addressed, badly written, contained spelling/grammatical/syntax errors and were ambiguous and (possibly) disingenuous. On the other side of the discussion was an 'airship' woman (I'll leave that description to your imagination) who appeared to have made her own clothes (she should have tried something she was good at). In a shrill voice, she denounced this policy as potentially missing-out on someone who could be the best applicant. In response the chap suggested that, if nothing else, by presenting such a poor application, it showed remarkable ignorance. At this point the female behemoth almost exploded, shouting out how could he possibly use such 'insulting' language? They just don't know' said she. 'I rest my case said he', and I entirely agreed with him. The woman just looked puzzled. 

 

 

This is a typical BBC set-up. They've employed two people with know trenchant views an set them arguing while ignoring the fact that the written language skills a person needs is entirely dependent on the type on work they are being asked to perform. Some jobs need a great deal, others hardly any. It appears neither of the participants had the wit to point this out to the interviewer. The sad part of all this is the number of people who have been taken in by the media presenting pure entertainment as an attempt at in forming the public.

[Horsetan]

.....the media presenting pure entertainment as an attempt at informing the public.

I'm not even sure you could class it as entertainment, let alone pure.

[teaky]

Thanks for your comments.

 

I certainly didn't feel insulted by the initial greeting mentioned. I just thought it was way too informal. 

 

You're right that language changes, but the tenets of grammar do not (or should not) change. In my last job as a professional model railway journalist, if I'd have adopted such 'flexibility' in my writing as saying something worked 'good' (which is just the same as your response of 'good' when someone asks as to your health), I'd have been pilloried. 'Good' in both contexts has nothing at all to do with offending anyone, it's just wrong. It's excuses for that sort of thing which make me sad. 

 

In a similar vein, I've almost exploded this morning whilst listening to the radio when a presenter (a professional?) stated that 'Me and a friend had watched a complete DVD set (of tripe, I imagine) last night'. Where do they get such illiterates from? 

 

I know we live in a world of communication now where almost anything goes. However, because of my innate conservatism (with a small 'c') I'm not entirely comfortable with change. Means of addressing folk have also changed, but I respect what was considered 'good manners' in the past. The manners which, in days gone, would ensure a child did not address adults by their Christian names (remember that?). Over 20 years ago I was walking through my garage to my workshop when one of my sons' friends (he'd be about 12) addressed me as Tony. He seemed to shrink in terror as I adopted my sternest pedagogue stance and demanded, in future, he address me as Mr. Wright! The incident had an hilarious aftermath, at least for me. A week or so afterwards I couldn't help overhearing the same youth mutter in my direction 'Victorian Dad'. For readers of VIZ (like me) you'll know of the character; non-readers will have to imagine what's meant. Once he knew I'd overheard he went absolutely grey with what looked like fear as I strode towards him, only to pump his hand and congratulate him on giving me the greatest compliment possible. He just stood there looking rather puzzled. 

 

All the above said, this thread is really about making things. 

 

SE Finecast A4 01.jpg

 

Things like this chassis to go under a SE Finecast streamliner. The choice of the older Romford wheels is because it'll have to operate over Peco track - RP25 Markits do work, though they can drop into flangeways on occasions. The other reason is that these wheels will be red, and the non-blackened centres are easier to paint. The bogie wheels are the right sort, though. 

 

At the moment, it's at the running stage. How should I describe it? 'Hi, yous out there, me's just done dead good. De fing runs good, I maked it good and and me's feeling dead well abour it. 

 

I rest my case. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tings dig dis chassis to go unda da se finecast streamlina. da choice hof da olda romford wheels iz coz it'll af operate ova peco trak - rp25 markits do wurk, though dey can drop into flangeways on occasions. da uva reason iz dat dees wheels iz gonna be red, an' da non-blackened centres iz easia to paint. da bogie wheels iz da east side sort, though.

[Horsetan]

Tings dig dis chassis to go unda da se finecast streamlina. da choice hof da olda romford wheels iz coz it'll af operate ova peco trak - rp25 markits do wurk, though dey can drop into flangeways on occasions. da uva reason iz dat dees wheels iz gonna be red, an' da non-blackened centres iz easia to paint. da bogie wheels iz da east side sort, though.

Where's Tim Westwood when you need him?

[coachmann]

Where's Tim Westwood when you need him?

Or even Albert Pierrepoint...  

[teaky]

Tim westwood?  who's dat?  Is it coz I is black?

[westerner]

Tings dig dis chassis to go unda da se finecast streamlina. da choice hof da olda romford wheels iz coz it'll af operate ova peco trak - rp25 markits do wurk, though dey can drop into flangeways on occasions. da uva reason iz dat dees wheels iz gonna be red, an' da non-blackened centres iz easia to paint. da bogie wheels iz da east side sort, though.

 

For all its modern street language  I understood what Teaky was on about. and to some extent that is the point. Whatever is written or spoken can the recipient   understand it. As has already been mentioned language is not fixed, it continues to evolve.  Although I too get a little annoyed when people use the word can when they are asking permission rather than may. We all have our quirks.

[glo41f]

This thread gets more esoteric as each day progresses. Some really funny comments for such a grumpy lot of seniors. Perhaps we should face it that we are of the past and the dynamics of life are such now that it moves very fast in a multiplicity of directions. I find it easier not to try and keep up. That is why I love my hobby as I can retreat into a world which probably was not that wonderful in reality but it did have surety. When I first started work, it was possible to leave a job on a Friday and get a new one the following Tuesday. Houses were affordable even if cars were not. Most jobs gave a pension which actually paid for one's retirement. On the railways. there was transition but it was all interesting. Girls were mysterious creatures with a strange fascination and alure. (Never learned what that was!). Romford wheels seem to be the only unifying link through all this.

Wonderful stuff.

 

Martin Long

[drmditch]

As regards 'use of language', I suspect that every generation has somewhat similar transitional experiences., I suspect that for us older people in 2016  that transition is magnified by:-

- a massively increased use of 'easy' communications technology

- resulting in a world-wide community of English speakers, the vast majority of whom do not live in the British Isles, and:

- most people speaking English have learned it as a second (or third) language, and in consequence:

- have leaned English in a more structured way than many British English speakers who are no longer taught much about grammar, syntax, or the use of words!

 

I had an embarrassing incident in an interview a few years ago, when the interviewer used 'forecasted' as the past-participle of the verb 'to forecast'!  Apparently, according to my academic friends this is something that can happen to 'weak verbs'. I keep meaning to research 'weak verbs' some more.

 

In my opinion some changes are evidence of changing and deteriorating technical and social awareness, and of consequent linguistic decline. The BBC reported the ferry that could not dock at Holyhead during Storm Angus as being 'stranded'! Since it had to remain at sea then it was certainly not stranded. Yes the word has come to mean the same as 'stuck where you do not want to be', but surely even a reporter or editor should be able to recognise how inappropriate it was to use the word in that context!

 

Having said all that some things annoy, but can't really hurt. For example:-

'Train Station' - yes, it is irritating but can anyone really say it is wrong? I have difficulty trying to think of any reason why 'a station for a train', as in 'where a train becomes stationary', should be really any different to 'a station on a railway' as in 'where traffic on a railway stops'.

 

Some changes are just amusing!

Increasingly, the standard valediction is 'See you later', which of course is just the same as 'Auf wiedersehen' or 'Au revoir'!

 

European influences in the English High Street!

 

Do the Brexiteers know?

 

(Back to laying track now. How did the NER position it's trap points?)

Edited December 1, 2016 by drmditch

[Mallard60022]

This thread gets more esoteric as each day progresses. Some really funny comments for such a grumpy lot of seniors. Perhaps we should face it that we are of the past and the dynamics of life are such now that it moves very fast in a multiplicity of directions. I find it easier not to try and keep up. That is why I love my hobby as I can retreat into a world which probably was not that wonderful in reality but it did have surety. When I first started work, it was possible to leave a job on a Friday and get a new one the following Tuesday. Houses were affordable even if cars were not. Most jobs gave a pension which actually paid for one's retirement. On the railways. there was transition but it was all interesting. Girls were mysterious creatures with a strange fascination and alure. (Never learned what that was!). Romford wheels seem to be the only unifying link through all this.

Wonderful stuff.

 

Martin Long

Just remember Martin that a lure is that which a Falconer uses to get his hawk back to the hand. You may not have missed much at all?

Phil

[Mallard60022]

As regards 'use of language', I suspect that every generation has somewhat similar transitional experiences., I suspect that for us older people in 2016  that transition is magnified by:-

- a massively increased use of 'easy' communications technology

- resulting in a world-wide community of English speakers, the vast majority of whom do not live in the British Isles, and:

- most people speaking English have learned it as a second (or third) language, and in consequence:

- have leaned English in a more structured way than many British English speakers who are no longer taught much about grammar, syntax, or the use of words!

 

I had an embarrassing incident in an interview a few years ago, when the interviewer used 'forecasted' as the past-participle of the verb 'to forecast'!  Apparently, according to my academic friends this is something that can happen to 'weak verbs'. I keep meaning to research 'weak verbs' some more.

 

In my opinion some changes are evidence of changing and deteriorating technical and social awareness, and of consequent linguistic decline. The BBC reported the ferry that could not dock at Holyhead during Storm Angus as being 'stranded'! Since it had to remain at sea then it was certainly not stranded. Yes the word has come to mean the same as 'stuck where you do not want to be', but surely even a reporter or editor should be able to recognise how inappropriate it was to use the word in that context!

 

Having said all that some things annoy, but can't really hurt. For example:-

'Train Station' - yes, it is irritating but can anyone really say it is wrong? I have difficulty trying to think of any reason why 'a station for a train', as in 'where a train becomes stationary', should be really any different to 'a station on a railway' as in 'where traffic on a railway stops'.

 

Some changes are just amusing!

Increasingly, the standard valediction is 'See you later', which of course is just the same as 'Auf wiedersehen' or 'Au revoir'!

 

European influences in the English High Street!

 

Do the Brexiteers know?

 

(Back to laying track now. How did the NER position it's trap points?)

There's been 'European influences' in/on 'our' High Streets for a very, very long time.......just think, what did the Romans ever do for us? A huge minority of the particular bunch of persons you mention wouldn't even realise this! They also wouldn't know what the #### is a Trap Point or the NER. We are so lucky to belong to a very sophisticated group that know these things. I don't know about NER Trap Points, but I suspect Mr Welleans will!

Phil

Edited December 1, 2016 by Mallard60022

[The Stationmaster]

There's been 'European influences' in/on 'our' High Streets for a very, very long time.......just think, what did the Romans ever do for us? A huge minority of the particular bunch of persons you mention wouldn't even realise this! They also wouldn't know what the #### is a Trap Point or the NER. We are so lucky to belong to a very sophisticated group that know these things. I don't know about NER Trap Points, but I suspect Mr Welleans will!

Phil

 

On a note of pedantry if the lingua franca of the NER accorded with the contents of its Rule Book what we nowadays call (or ought to call) trap points were described as 'safety points' (but they did call catch points catch points).  Alas great grandad who was originally issued with said Rule Book to assist in the correct pursuance of his duties joined the great swing bridge gang in the sky long before I came along so I'm unable to ask him if that is the words they did use.

[Richard_A]

Dear Mr Wright,

 

To use a common phrase, that an apprentice who worked with me recently would use,

 

"That looks bear peng"

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

I certainly didn't feel insulted by the initial greeting mentioned. I just thought it was way too informal.

 

You're right that language changes, but the tenets of grammar do not (or should not) change. In my last job as a professional model railway journalist, if I'd have adopted such 'flexibility' in my writing as saying something worked 'good' (which is just the same as your response of 'good' when someone asks as to your health), I'd have been pilloried. 'Good' in both contexts has nothing at all to do with offending anyone, it's just wrong. It's excuses for that sort of thing which make me sad.

 

In a similar vein, I've almost exploded this morning whilst listening to the radio when a presenter (a professional?) stated that 'Me and a friend had watched a complete DVD set (of tripe, I imagine) last night'. Where do they get such illiterates from?

 

I know we live in a world of communication now where almost anything goes. However, because of my innate conservatism (with a small 'c') I'm not entirely comfortable with change. Means of addressing folk have also changed, but I respect what was considered 'good manners' in the past. The manners which, in days gone, would ensure a child did not address adults by their Christian names (remember that?). Over 20 years ago I was walking through my garage to my workshop when one of my sons' friends (he'd be about 12) addressed me as Tony. He seemed to shrink in terror as I adopted my sternest pedagogue stance and demanded, in future, he address me as Mr. Wright! The incident had an hilarious aftermath, at least for me. A week or so afterwards I couldn't help overhearing the same youth mutter in my direction 'Victorian Dad'. For readers of VIZ (like me) you'll know of the character; non-readers will have to imagine what's meant. Once he knew I'd overheard he went absolutely grey with what looked like fear as I strode towards him, only to pump his hand and congratulate him on giving me the greatest compliment possible. He just stood there looking rather puzzled.

 

All the above said, this thread is really about making things.

 

SE Finecast A4 01.jpg

 

Things like this chassis to go under a SE Finecast streamliner. The choice of the older Romford wheels is because it'll have to operate over Peco track - RP25 Markits do work, though they can drop into flangeways on occasions. The other reason is that these wheels will be red, and the non-blackened centres are easier to paint. The bogie wheels are the right sort, though.

 

At the moment, it's at the running stage. How should I describe it? 'Hi, yous out there, me's just done dead good. De fing runs good, I maked it good and and me's feeling dead well abour it.

 

I rest my case.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[Tony Wright]

This is a typical BBC set-up. They've employed two people with know trenchant views an set them arguing while ignoring the fact that the written language skills a person needs is entirely dependent on the type on work they are being asked to perform. Some jobs need a great deal, others hardly any. It appears neither of the participants had the wit to point this out to the interviewer. The sad part of all this is the number of people who have been taken in by the media presenting pure entertainment as an attempt at in forming the public.

You're probably quite right, Bill.

 

Except it wasn't on the BBC. 

 

I try as little as possible to watch the BBC now (not that I consider the other principal channels much better). If this appears as snobbish, so be it, but I tire of mumbling presenters, those who have trouble with their pronunciation, 'ignorant' presenters and what appears to be a general dumbing-down of the standards of presentation generally, not just on the BBC to be fair. I tried watching some programmes featuring railways recently. One was on FLYING SCOTSMAN, and I switched it off very quite quickly once it became apparent that the principal presenter seemed to have little knowledge of his subject. Another appeared to be more generally historical but the shrill delivery of the female presenter hurt my ears, so off that went as well.

I tried to watch a film the other evening which carried off several Oscars this year. I gave up because I couldn't understand a word being said (apart from when sub-titles appeared).

 

As one advances in years, does one get more and more like those in the family who've gone before? At times I sound exactly like my Yorkshire grandfather (not in his rich Rother Valley accent but just in the things I say). His younger son (my dad's brother and my uncle) was just like him. In the '50s I used to think their views were a bit reactionary and old-fashioned, but not now. By the way, what has all this to do with railways? Granddad used to take my brother and me down to Kiveton Park Station in the late '40s/early-'50s to sit on the signal box steps whilst he chatted to the signalman, his next door neighbour. My uncle used to take us tiddler fishing by the Chesterfield Canal, right alongside the railway. What wonderful examples of things to be interested in they gave me. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by Tony Wright

[LNER4479]

All the above said, this thread is really about making things. 

 

SE Finecast A4 01.jpg

 

Things like this chassis to go under a SE Finecast streamliner. The choice of the older Romford wheels is because it'll have to operate over Peco track - RP25 Markits do work, though they can drop into flangeways on occasions. The other reason is that these wheels will be red, and the non-blackened centres are easier to paint. The bogie wheels are the right sort, though. 

 

At the moment, it's at the running stage. How should I describe it? 'Hi, yous out there, me's just done dead good. De fing runs good, I maked it good and and me's feeling dead well abour it. 

 

I rest my case. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Oh I say Tony, my good fellow - that looks jolly splendid!

 

or

 

Hail Tony! Verily I say that chassis great credit doth thee do.

[jrg1]

This is a typical BBC set-up. They've employed two people with know trenchant views an set them arguing while ignoring the fact that the written language skills a person needs is entirely dependent on the type on work they are being asked to perform. Some jobs need a great deal, others hardly any. It appears neither of the participants had the wit to point this out to the interviewer. The sad part of all this is the number of people who have been taken in by the media presenting pure entertainment as an attempt at in forming the public.

Loading a debate was finessed by David Frost many years ago-lousy television, but great for his career.  Sad really, as his public evisceration of the scoundrel Savundra showed that he was capable of far better things.

[Stanley Melrose]

Very many years ago when Frost was first appearing on TV and getting a reputation for his behaviour on TW3, I was an undergraduate at one of London University's better colleges.  We used to invite "interesting" people to the Students' Union for lunchtime sessions.  The worst was Frankie Howerd, who could only respond to prompts of the punch-lines of his more well-known catch phrases to deliver the preceding lines.  Not very enlightening, I have to say.  The best by a country mile was Tommy Trinder who deflated all the student attempts to show him up as an ignoramus with splendid one-liners, delivering his put-downs with speed and accuracy.

 

Frost turned out to be a big-headed sexist bore who insulted many of the ladies present with his attempts at vulgar humour.  One of the male law students present took him down with the observation to one of the Student Union officers, the gorgeous Chilean, Lucia Santa Cruz, (reputedly Prince Charles' first conquest), "What would you do if f/Frost became persistent?"

 

He probably achieved his ultimate level with "Through the Keyhole".

 

Stan

Loading a debate was finessed by David Frost many years ago-lousy television, but great for his career.  Sad really, as his public evisceration of the scoundrel Savundra showed that he was capable of far better things.

[Tony Wright]

Oh I say Tony, my good fellow - that looks jolly splendid!

 

or

 

Hail Tony! Verily I say that chassis great credit doth thee do.

Thank you Graham; salutations to thee!

 

You know what it's for and I'm making sure it'll do the job it's intended to do. I've just had it romping round LB today and it has plenty of 'go'. Tomorrow should see the basic body on and a start made on the tender. I'll post pictures as progress takes place. 

 

Did the motor and pictures arrive safely, by the way? 

[St Enodoc]

Just remember Martin that a lure is that which a Falconer uses to get his hawk back to the hand. You may not have missed much at all?

Phil

Forty years ago the best lure for a bird was a Carlsberg Special.