Wright writes.....

[Andy Hayter]

 

In the modelling scene, it seems to me that those who model the diseasel era, don't seem to hang on to their loco's, like those who model the steam era. I could be wrong but it is just an observation I have mad in recent years. 

Maybe it is the changing logo's......who knows!

 

Khris

 

I think those who model diesels (and electrics for that matter) do so for a number of reasons

 

There are those who model a specific era; blue, green, sectoristion etc.

There are also those who model the scene today.

 

The former group will tend to keep their models until/unless they can upgrade to a better version.

The latter group will however want and "need" to upgrade on each new livery variant, each new operating company etc.  Hence your observation of diesels not being kept by their owners.

[kandc_au]

Time to stop the steam v diesel thing, just as it is time to bury the DC v DCC, and stupid gauge stuff. We are all railway modellers.

.Sorry Clive....That WAS NOT the intent of the post....it was just something I noticed with younger modellers.

 

Khris

[kandc_au]

On the issue of diseasels.....The Sulzer type 2    when did they actually come in , in the UK?

 

Khris

[allan downes]

I would say that as railway modellers most of us model the era that we were born into and when the 'new fangled' diesels came along they weren't looked upon as so new fangled to  those born into that age and, in fact, it wouldn't surprise me that when models of diesel locomotives and more modern rolling stock started to pour onto the market a new generation of railway modellers was born.

 

Now I personally wouldn't have a diesel locomotive anywhere near a layout I ever built but that's only out of sheer disgust that something so plain and characterless ( and also, without saying it loud enough for anybody to hear, more efficient )  could possibly be allowed to replace the dirty, filthy, often unreliable steam locomotive that I remembered and loved so well ) - even after nigh freezing to death on Sarsden Halt platform ( a few railway sleepers  propped up on stilts ) on more than several occasions because either something had fallen off the driver or the worn out tank that regularly refused to move out of the Kingham bay without a lot of attention applied to either the loco's motion, the driver's arthritis or the fireman's tricky back and iffy knee. 

 

It would, no doubt, be the same if I  ever took up aircraft modelling where I would merrily embrace such stalwarts as Lancasters and Spitfires and swear to have absolutely nothing at all to with anything that didn't have a propeller !

 

Allan

Edited September 22, 2017 by allan downes

[St Enodoc]

I would say that as railway modellers most of us model the era that we were born into and when the 'new fangled' diesels came along they weren't looked upon as so new fangled to  those born into that age and, in fact, it wouldn't surprise me that when models of diesel locomotives and more modern rolling stock started to pour onto the market a new generation of railway modellers was born.

 

Now I personally wouldn't have a diesel locomotive anywhere near a layout I ever built but that's only out of sheer disgust that something so plain and characterless ( and also, without saying it loud enough for anybody to hear, more efficient )  could possibly be allowed to replace the dirty, filthy, often unreliable steam locomotive that I remembered and loved so well ) - even after nigh freezing to death on Sarsden Halt platform ( a few railway sleepers  propped up on stilts ) on more than several occasions because either something had fallen off the driver or the worn out tank that regularly refused to move out of the Kingham bay without a lot of attention applied to either the loco's motion, the driver's arthritis or the fireman's tricky back and iffy knee. 

 

It would, no doubt, be the same if I  ever took up aircraft modelling where I would merrily embrace such stalwarts as Lancasters and Spitfires and swear to have absolutely nothing at all to with anything that didn't have a propeller !

 

Allan

Not even a Lightning (or a VC10 come to that)?

[St Enodoc]

Hi Khris

 

I must be the exception, some of these scratchbuilt locos are 30 years old and I still have them.

s010a.jpg

s011.jpg

s027.jpg

 

Time to stop the steam v diesel thing, just as it is time to bury the DC v DCC, and stupid gauge stuff. We are all railway modellers.

More of the blue Brush Type 2 please Clive!

[APOLLO]

In 1963 aged 11 I started travelling around by rail with my train mad elder brother. That year we holidayed at Ilfracombe, and traveled down to Halwill Jcn & Padstow via Torrington. Also went to Dulverton / Tiverton & Hemyock - all by steam (well, an occasional diesel). As I was young, the shiny green new diesels where the bees knees to me, I remember being at Chester on the day of the last castle hauled Birkenhead - Paddington train. A brand new shiny, humming Brush 4 (Cl 47) in a bay platform was the star for me, even got invited into the cab. All the old GWR farts were on the other platform crowded round the Castle !!.

Later we trawled the last of steam in Lancs & Yorks, with the occasional holiday special (The S&D Bath-Evercreech Jcn in 1966). We were on one of the last Jubilee hauled Leeds Glasgow trains in August 1967 - "Alberta" - pity she was not preserved. Not all were glamour trips though, I'll never forget an Xmas relief train Manchester - Leeds with a knackered black 5 & dirty worn out coaches - no steam heat & hardly any lighting, 50 min late at Leeds, return connection home missed, cold, wet, hungry, dark.

Well the end of steam for me started with the closure of my "home" shed, 8F Springs Branch (Wigan) - not the end of raiway interest for me, as we had a state of the art brand new diesel depot built there. The WCML was being improved (double headed hoovers thundering through Wigan), and was shortly to be electrified in 1973.

No, the end of steam was not the end for me, sad as it was. THAT came slowly, in the 1980-90's - it was called SECTORISATION / PRIVATISATION.

 

My loft layout is loosely dated around 1966/7 - Steam, green & blue diesels, a mix of maroon & Blue & grey coaches. Tons of infrastructure, a mix of semaphore & colour light signals, signal boxes galore, a tatty old gasworks, scrapyards, canals with dead dogs floating around ,  etc. ATMOSPHERE - that's what is missing today.

 

There is even a wonderfil thread on this site about this very "unloved" era. I have some photos on it both prototype & my model railway.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52572-why-is-this-so-rarely-modelled/page-1

 

Each to their own though, I find something of interest in every layout I view, whatever it's theme.

Brit15 

Edited September 22, 2017 by APOLLO

[t-b-g]

I have said this before but I don't model what I have seen. I model what I wish I had seen and can only see now through model making.

 

If I want to see a Class 66 on a container train, I don't need to build a model of it, I look out of my window.

 

Blue diesels (my trainspotting days) I can see at preserved lines or on many other layouts.

 

If I want to see a GCR liveried loco pulling a rake of GCR carriages, I have a few snippets of old black and white film, a tiny number of other layouts or my own model making (Until the good folk at Ruddington get theirs finished!).

[Clive Mortimore]

More of the blue Brush Type 2 please Clive!

It is only a Airfix loco with a splash of electric blue slapped on. I also done the one in LBSCR Stroudly's improved engine green. Then Lima done both of them, getting the blue horribly wrong. When exhibiting Hanging Hill I never got around to numbering a green one either D5578 or D5579 and then running the experimental livery one and the green one at the same time to see if anyone noticed.

 

I did number a 350 shunter as one that was rebuilt into a class 13, one of the pair that made up my master and slave. They would be on the layout at the same time, no one ever noticed two of the same loco were running along side each other.

[Clive Mortimore]

.Sorry Clive....That WAS NOT the intent of the post....it was just something I noticed with younger modellers.

 

Khris

Hi Khris

 

D&E modellers can be blinkered as well. I wrote this the other day on the DEMU forum.

 

"Steam, diesel and electrics all ran together in many parts of the country for quite a few years. I was lucky enough to see green AM4s (class 304s to the great unwashed) alongside Black Fives and electric blue AC locos at Crewe in 1966. Plus a few DMUs in green. And what  wonderful sight is was.

 

Seriously we in DEMU should embrace modellers who run steam, diesel and electric together as fellow D&E modellers who just happen to like steam as well. Not as I sometimes get the feeling that they are seen by D&E modellers (and steam modellers) as just steam modellers who dabble in D&E and should not be given the time of day. We are all railway modellers and have a lot to share with each other."

[Clive Mortimore]

On the issue of diseasels.....The Sulzer type 2    when did they actually come in , in the UK?

 

Khris

Hi Khris

 

D5000 was delivered July 1958. Almost everything we need to know about Bo-Bos as we called them can be found on http://www.derbysulzers.com/

[coachmann]

When I came into the world, there wasn't a diesel in sight and steam haulage was the norm as it had been for my forefathers. When change came, it was seriously big but of course 'we' suffered badly from it post-industrial England whereas the Cambrian/GWR in North Wales and the Borders remained virtually untouched even in the early 1960's.  When so-called modernization did catch up, it came almost overnight and closed down a large chunk of Welsh railway system.  

 

So it isn't necessarily nostalgia that makes many people model the traditional steam railway. The steam railway was a far better system .....more variety,....more interest....more everything. I chuckle when I see so-called modern image layouts with diesels (of course) and the layout builders has chosen to retain steam-era track and infrastructure because he noticed it was more interesting to have a goods yard with a shed, cattle dock, signal box and ow't else that he could filch from the 1950's rather than a solitary track into a weed-strewn platform with a bus shelter. Modern Image cheats....

Edited September 22, 2017 by coachmann

[allan downes]

I wonder if any of you knowledgeable gentlemen can tell me this.

 

What company and what loco  ( I only ever recall one, some kind of tank I believe ) run on the Edgeware Branch line through to 'The Hale', Mill Hill, and possibly beyond, during and just after the war years ?

 

Many thanks.

 

Allan.

 

[31A]

I wonder if any of you knowledgeable gentlemen can tell me this.

 

What company and what loco  ( I only ever recall one, some kind of tank I believe ) run on the Edgeware Branch line through to 'The Hale', Mill Hill, and possibly beyond, during and just after the war years ?

 

Many thanks.

 

Allan.

 

 

 

It's an LNER (ex GNR) N2 Class 0-6-2T, which would have been normal on the line from around Grouping until the end of steam on the ex GN system in London.

[t-b-g]

I wonder if any of you knowledgeable gentlemen can tell me this.

 

What company and what loco  ( I only ever recall one, some kind of tank I believe ) run on the Edgeware Branch line through to 'The Hale', Mill Hill, and possibly beyond, during and just after the war years ?

 

Many thanks.

 

Allan.

 

 

There is a fully detailed caption to the photo on the disused stations website that identifies the loco as a Gresley designed N2 and the line was a GNR branch line.

[glo41f]

Allan

 

It was the former LNER and the loco is a class N2 0-6-2 tank.  As it happens I am half way through modelling one of these. They worked in East Anglia but the examples we had were not the condenser fitted ones found in the metropolis. Now to me the N2 has to have condensing gear to  look the part and I am minded to fit it to my one even though it would be working down to Harwich from Colchester. I even fitted an old Hornby Dublo one with condensing gear when I was about 17 and was so proud of it despite it being "short". A bit of a dilemma really.

 

Martin Long

[New Haven Neil]

Changing tack - away from DCC and gauge, to colour!

 

Looking at Clive's Brush 2 in blue, and noting he says he painted it 'electric blue'; I've always liked this loco (and its ochre brother) but had thought it a darker blue.  Now, not starting an argument here, more a discussion of film emulsion I suppose, as I have no idea what colour it really was, but many shots of it I have collected over the years it looks a very much darker blue than Clive's model, and possibly the much discussed 'chromatic blue' that may, or may not have existed!  Any ideas?  Tony may well be able to give advice about the accuracy (mostly otherwise I think) of blues in old colour film?  Anyone really know what colour it was - especially Clive who possibly painted his model with this knowledge?

 

I can't post any of my photos as they will all be copyrighted.

[Clive Mortimore]

Changing tack - away from DCC and gauge, to colour!

 

Looking at Clive's Brush 2 in blue, and noting he says he painted it 'electric blue'; I've always liked this loco (and its ochre brother) but had thought it a darker blue.  Now, not starting an argument here, more a discussion of film emulsion I suppose, as I have no idea what colour it really was, but many shots of it I have collected over the years it looks a very much darker blue than Clive's model, and possibly the much discussed 'chromatic blue' that may, or may not have existed!  Any ideas?  Tony may well be able to give advice about the accuracy (mostly otherwise I think) of blues in old colour film?  Anyone really know what colour it was - especially Clive who possibly painted his model with this knowledge?

 

I can't post any of my photos as they will all be copyrighted.

Hi Neil

 

When I painted it I took it to my then local club, the Witham club. Many of the members grew up locally and were trainspotting when the two experimental liveries were running up and down the GER line through Witham. They all said I had got the colour correct. Many commented on the few published colour photos as being wrong possibly due to the film used.

 

I addition to what my mates said Brian Hareshanpe always stated in his articles and books it was "Electric Blue". He was part of the BR design team during the 1960s and seems to be spot on with liveries.

 

I had underlined it in my Ian Allan combine but it was either been repainted green or BR blue because I never saw it in its electric blue. Having not seen it in the livery we are discussing I can only go on what my mates say and Brian Haresnape has written.

[allan downes]

Thanks for the information guys.

 

The branch - now an overgrown nature reserve - ran right along the bottom of my Grandparents garden where the crew often waved to me even though I used to throw stones at their little engine ! )

 

Where 'The Hale' once stood, the cutting has now long since been filled in and the road over bridge bricked up. Even as just a spotty faced kid of eight the station was abandoned and in an advanced state of dereliction. We hero's of the day could quite often be seen trying to climb along the plate girder bridge that carried the main line to the North through Mill Hill Station even though it was strictly out of bounds and therefore more reason for doing so.

 

At the rear of where we lived was an open area which we referred to as 'The Fields' which also backed onto the railway where every time the little loco chugged by we would pelt it with ' mud bombs' skillfully manufactured  out of the mud that represented the so called stream that ran all the way down to Hendon and the Welsh Harp reservoir. This activity could, and often did, lead to a good hiding at home for some kids but because I was so cute I got away with it !

 

On one occasion a certain gang of idiots from another gang of idiots tried derailing it by laying an old railway sleeper across  the tracks which lead to the council having to build six foot high railings to keep us kids out but didn't take into account that most of our dad's owned a hacksaw and crow bar and, incredibly, that gap in that fence is still there to day - 73 years on !  - And the Fields themselves ? Well they've long, long since overgrown and stood untrodden for decades and, for that, you can blame computers, play stations and faceless kids who wouldn't know what a Mud Bomb was if it hit them in the face !

 

Allan.

[New Haven Neil]

Hi Neil

 

When I painted it I took it to my then local club, the Witham club. Many of the members grew up locally and were trainspotting when the two experimental liveries were running up and down the GER line through Witham. They all said I had got the colour correct. Many commented on the few published colour photos as being wrong possibly due to the film used.

 

I addition to what my mates said Brian Hareshanpe always stated in his articles and books it was "Electric Blue". He was part of the BR design team during the 1960s and seems to be spot on with liveries.

 

I had underlined it in my Ian Allan combine but it was either been repainted green or BR blue because I never saw it in its electric blue. Having not seen it in the livery we are discussing I can only go on what my mates say and Brian Haresnape has written.

 

Thanks Clive.  Can't give you an 'informative' and a 'thanks' !!  I haven't got a book with a direct mention of the colour, but am quite happy to take Brian Haresnape's word!  My mind is going to the Tri-ang version (the correct-ish one, nit the one with white lines) being pretty much that colour, certainly lighter than BR Blue (Monastral?).  The images I have show a colour that is not in the slightest believe-able as it is almost GER blue in one!

[allan downes]

Oh, and another little memory - A four kid expedition to discover where that little branch line ended up that was undertaken on one hot, relentless Summer's day during the hols with nothing better to do, and nothing left to do as we'd already done everything that was strictly illegal and everything that was regarded as scientifically impossible if you were under 4 foot ten.

 

Equipped with a bottle of Tizer, four jam sandwiches and  absolutely no sense of direction whatsoever, we started off by foot from The Hale and followed the single track for what seemed to be for ever where having reached the Mill Hill East gasworks we declared it as the end of the line, whether it was or it wasn't, ate our sandwiches, drained the Tizer bottle, argued  desperately about  who could keep it so as to claim the penny refund then slogged our way home where we told the rest of the gang that we only got as far a Scotland, even though it was entirely in the opposite direction altogether, because one jam sandwich just wasn't going to do it.

 

So, does anyone know where it  ACTUALLY did end?

 

Thanks.

 

Allan.

Edited September 22, 2017 by allan downes

[Clive Mortimore]

When I came into the world, there wasn't a diesel in sight and steam haulage was the norm as it had been for my forefathers. When change came, it was seriously big but of course 'we' suffered badly from it post-industrial England whereas the Cambrian/GWR in North Wales and the Borders remained virtually untouched even in the early 1960's.  When so-called modernization did catch up, it came almost overnight and closed down a large chunk of Welsh railway system.  

 

So it isn't necessarily nostalgia that makes many people model the traditional steam railway. The steam railway was a far better system .....more variety,....more interest....more everything. I chuckle when I see so-called modern image layouts with diesels (of course) and the layout builders has chosen to retain steam-era track and infrastructure because he noticed it was more interesting to have a goods yard with a shed, cattle dock, signal box and ow't else that he could filch from the 1950's rather than a solitary track into a weed-strewn platform with a bus shelter. Modern Image cheats....

I am a "Modern image", how I hate that term, modeller. My last layout and my next was/will be missing a goods yard with shed, and cattle dock. The last layout had a signal box, with correct signals, point rodding, facing locks and the box was the correct size for the number of levers. My next layout will have LMS "modern image" colour light signaling from the 1930s, not the stolen from the 1950s. The stock will include loads of DMUs, loco hauled non-corridor stock, a mix of parcels vans, only two short freight trains coal trucks for the steam locos and diesel in petrol tankers for the diesel locos........YES coal for the steam locos because I am modelling the early 60s when steam and diesel ran side by side, now that's what I call variety.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[APOLLO]

Alan does this help ?.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fiy6kiLyE-k

 

Brit15

[glo41f]

As to the Brush in blue, I remember this well and it was the lighter blue (now seemingly called electric blue). Both the funny coloured ones were regulars around Ipswich in the sixties.ow there possibly was another one painted a darker blue which was seen around Cambridge in the 1970's. (My memory is not clear on that one. Was it a "test bed" for the all pervasive BR blue which followed? Certainly Tri-ang issued one painted that colour which had the cab window surrounds in white. The Cambridge one also had white window surrounds. Does anyone have further details of this beatie? (Did not then collect numbers and rarely did so even in steam days as I was too busy watching the engines!)

 

Martin Long

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Martin

 

As far as I am aware D5578 was the only blue Brush type 2 before the advent of Corporate Blue. I have been told Tri-ang got it right by painting the white stripes on it, no photos have yet raised their head to prove it and that Tri-ang got it right by painting the cab white, again lack of photos to prove it. I have seen photos of it in green livery, which it was painted into on its first major overhaul, and later in Corporate Blue when it received its English Electric engine. I am happy to keep an open mind on the white stripes and the white cab windows but until I see photos of either livery my model stays as it is.