Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

Wright writes for Luddites....

Why is there only one 'agree' button? 

[Tony Wright]

Surely the question of sound and the perception for most of us being an imagined or recalled sound in our heads is one that harks back to our very first train set. As youngsters we would run our trains, possibly uttering choo choo sounds and then as we got our electric train we then used our mind to add all the accoutriments.

 

Is the desire for sound something more attractive to those who do not remember, at least, some of the effect of what they are choosing to model. Is it also a spin off where there seems to be a gradual shift towards modelling more recent times by a growing number so those choosing to model something they don't recall need the sound to help their mental pictures?

 

Discuss .....

Richard,

 

You might well be right with regard to those modelling more recent times. All they need to do is go to their nearest railway station and just listen (and/or make the equivalent of a tape recording). 

 

I wonder who these 'modern modellers' are. On Tuesday, Mo and I had a day out in Nottingham, taking a train from Grantham. The two-car unit we went in certainly sounded very different to the 91s and HSTs on the main line, and it was almost as noisy inside. There were two 'observers' on the station when we left, noting numbers, but they weren't boys of a very-impressionable age (as would have been the case 50-60 years ago). Those 'boys' are now the generation which makes up the greatest number of modellers in the hobby today. 

 

On the journey, the number of times the unit was brushed by overhanging trees (especially nearer Nottingham) made me wonder just how much one might see of the railway on a model replicating the scene today. I have to say, Nottingham Station was clean, bright and a pleasant place to begin or end a journey, but I doubt if it held much in the way of interest for enthusiasts. There appeared to be several different units present (one from the 'North' plastered with images and text which had no empathy with the forms on to which they were applied), including HSTs and some strange-looking inside-bearing units in East Midlands colours.  

 

There were no spotters present (and thus no future modellers?). My mind went back some 50-odd years ago when I last stood on Nottingham (Midland) Station. The first thing I saw then was a Black Five clattering over the GC bridge (is that where the trams now cross?). There was a mix of steam and diesel in the station, the former mainly ex-LMS types and the latter mainly Peaks. We'd stopped off at Trent on the way and one didn't know where to look, such was the number of trains of all sorts from all directions, all governed by some wonderfully-antique MR lower-quadrant signals. A much more interesting scene to model than today's? I think so, but then Mo quite rightly said that I was probably the only railway enthusiast travelling to and from Nottingham on Tuesday, and today's railways aren't run for enthusiasts (were they ever?). Certainly, the DMU between Derby and Nottingham I travelled on in the early-'60s was packed with trainspotters, it being a summer Saturday in the school holidays. 

[allan downes]

 

Think I may have mentioned this before but our favourite trainspotting place was near the entrance to Boreham Wood tunnel and the most dangerous place imaginable with main liners either thundering their way flat out to the North, or thundering their way flat out to the South.

 

 

However, my mother forbade me to go anywhere near the place on the grounds that one day, somebody's going to get killed there where I explained "But mum. That's all I go there for "!

 

Allan

[Tony Wright]

For my views on the debate see the editorial in MRJ 256, no prizes for guessing who the 'spawn of satan' quote is from!

 

I don't mention sound but I'm still undecided. I have fitted a couple of my 2mm locos with sound and they are a lot of fun to play with but I have to say that after a while it gets tiresome and I turn it off.

 

Jerry

Jerry,

 

The secret's out (if it ever were a secret). 

 

When we exhibited Stoke Summit, I fitted a device with an A4 chime whistle in/on it (a weeny sort of gadget) just inside the tunnel mouth, out of sight. When an A4 or the W1 was passing (if I remembered), I'd press a hand-held button device and a signal would go out to the gadget and the chime would sound. I soon got fed up with it (even though it sounded quite realistic) and, after a while, the battery ran out. For all I know, it's still there, behind the false internal bore of the tunnel. 

[Lecorbusier]

Richard,

 

You might well be right with regard to those modelling more recent times. All they need to do is go to their nearest railway station and just listen (and/or make the equivalent of a tape recording). 

 

I wonder who these 'modern modellers' are. On Tuesday, Mo and I had a day out in Nottingham, taking a train from Grantham. The two-car unit we went in certainly sounded very different to the 91s and HSTs on the main line, and it was almost as noisy inside. There were two 'observers' on the station when we left, noting numbers, but they weren't boys of a very-impressionable age (as would have been the case 50-60 years ago). Those 'boys' are now the generation which makes up the greatest number of modellers in the hobby today. 

 

On the journey, the number of times the unit was brushed by overhanging trees (especially nearer Nottingham) made me wonder just how much one might see of the railway on a model replicating the scene today. I have to say, Nottingham Station was clean, bright and a pleasant place to begin or end a journey, but I doubt if it held much in the way of interest for enthusiasts. There appeared to be several different units present (one from the 'North' plastered with images and text which had no empathy with the forms on to which they were applied), including HSTs and some strange-looking inside-bearing units in East Midlands colours.  

 

There were no spotters present (and thus no future modellers?). My mind went back some 50-odd years ago when I last stood on Nottingham (Midland) Station. The first thing I saw then was a Black Five clattering over the GC bridge (is that where the trams now cross?). There was a mix of steam and diesel in the station, the former mainly ex-LMS types and the latter mainly Peaks. We'd stopped off at Trent on the way and one didn't know where to look, such was the number of trains of all sorts from all directions, all governed by some wonderfully-antique MR lower-quadrant signals. A much more interesting scene to model than today's? I think so, but then Mo quite rightly said that I was probably the only railway enthusiast travelling to and from Nottingham on Tuesday, and today's railways aren't run for enthusiasts (were they ever?). Certainly, the DMU between Derby and Nottingham I travelled on in the early-'60s was packed with trainspotters, it being a summer Saturday in the school holidays. 

 

A few musings on this...

 

In my generation during the late 70s, amongst the majority trainspotter was used as an insult! I am not at all sure that new or even returning modellers are exclusively drawn from the ranks of spotters now. Railway modelling it seems to me is passed down father to son as an enthusiasm (much like military modelling or non computer wargaming). The heritage railway boom and the re-emergence of mainline steam is a big feeder - it is perhaps a significant habitat for people who would have been spotters in the 50s. The heritage scene leads to an interest and often a fascination with how the railways used to be - and how they pervaded every aspect of life. This is evidenced by the remarkable number of mainstream documentaries on the subject (Dan Snow's locomotion, Full Steam Ahead ... etc etc). There is also I believe a considerable instinctive attraction to both moving and static scale models. When we are presenting building designs as architects we always find it is the models which captivate the most.

 

I came to modelling through my father buying me a train set, linked with holiday memories of the Talylyn and an enjoyment of building airfix kits. Having grown up in the diesel era, I and many like me are fascinated by steam and not from any childhood memory. As such the whole historical range becomes our treasure trove .... for instance I have chosen to model the pre grouping Midland set in the Peak where I grew up. This is not to say the post steam era doesn't have its fascinations ... but rather that personal experience and memory doesn't have to be the main driver.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[glo41f]

The sound topic is producing some thought provoking comments. Certainly the reference to a first train set with user sounds added was true for me. As most did in those times we started woth Hornby clockwork and that had plenty of noise with the tin track and the racket of the loco mechanism. In fact when I saw the late Jack Rays Crewchester in its spring drive days, I was amazed how quiet it was as I expected the rattles and crashes of my old Hornby stuff. Then when one graduated to (hopefully) Hornby Dublo , there was still a lot of noise from the metal wheels on metal track which again inspired comparison with the full size article. Even if you were of the poorer classes and had plastic Tri-ang stuff it still clattered over the rather poor rail joints of the often ill fitting grey track. So perhaps by association, I have long felt noise to be part of the model scene but not electronic sound as such. Wheel noise and mechanical noise is all part of the show. LB runs really well and perhaps could be deemed too quiet. However the lack of noise is compensated by the total realism and the ability to "lose" oneself in the landscape and just watch the beautiful trains pass by.

 

Martin Long

[rowanj]

Tony's comments are apposite in connection with a problem I'm having researching my new layout, based on my regular trainspotting location at Little Benton, north of Newcastle. In 1960. There was an 2 track ECML alongside 5 storage sidings, installed during WW2.It was/is neatly situated between 2 bridges with a signal box at each end, reasonably easy to build semaphore signals, and in a shallow cutting. A modellers dream. Of course, I took not a blind bit of notice of any of that from 1959-63, being interested only in "cops". So a recent return to photograph the bridges revealed something more like a jungle, as the photo shows. But at least we did some blackberry picking.

 

Incidentally, if anyone can point me at info on the site, I'd be grateful. The usual stuff is needed - photos of the signals and boxes - etc

 

 

 

On the journey, the number of times the unit was brushed by overhanging trees (especially nearer Nottingham) made me wonder just how much one might see of the railway on a model replicating the scene today.

 

[Richard E]

Ah, Nottingham Midland. Used to cycle past the main entrance twice a day commuting to/from work when I lived there.

 

The trams run over the station on the same alignment as the GCR used but it is a new bridge built for them as the GC one disappeared a long time ago as did the river bridge at Wilford. When the new bridge was built it was erected on the GCR alignment north of the station and jacked across the station inch by inch until it reached its supports.

 

I am often surprised at the number of gricers on the south end of Donny on a nice day when I pass through at about 8:30. They are long gone by the time I go home though. Through the summer there are often one or two on Peterborough (North) and, like Donny, they are camped out with chair, camera, video camera, voice recorder and the obligatory flask and sandwiches. And none are young - they are 'our' age so possibly not modellers as such but still rail enthusiasts one assumes.

 

I see you have run against (sic) the oft discussed topic of lineside growth (where's the Stationmaster to tell us about it) and the lack of control that now seems to be evidenced. To me the lineside greenery is definitely taller/more lush this year. And the Buddleia needs cutting back in most places.

[Tony Wright]

A few musings on this...

 

In my generation during the late 70s, amongst the majority train spotter was used as an insult! I am not at all sure that new or even returning modellers are exclusively drawn from the ranks of spotters now. Railway modelling it seems to me is passed down father to son as an enthusiasm (much like military modelling or non computer wargaming). The heritage railway boom and the re-emergence of mainline steam is a big feeder - it is perhaps a significant habitat for people who would have been spotters in the 50s. The heritage scene leads to an interest and often a fascination with how the railways used to be - and how they pervaded every aspect of life. This is evidenced by the remarkable number of mainstream documentaries on the subject (Dan Snow's locomotion, Full Steam Ahead ... etc etc). There is also I believe a considerable instinctive attraction to both moving and static scale models. When we are presenting building designs as architects we always find it is the models which captivate the most.

 

I came to modelling through my father buying me a train set, linked with holiday memories of the Talylyn and an enjoyment of building airfix kits. Having grown up in the diesel era, I and many like me are fascinated by steam and not from any childhood memory. As such the whole historical range becomes our treasure trove .... for instance I have chosen to model the pre grouping Midland set in the Peak where I grew up. This is not to say the post steam era doesn't have its fascinations ... but rather that personal experience and memory doesn't have to be the main driver.

Thanks again Tim,

 

The theme of one-time trainspotters (one word?) becoming railway modellers in later life keeps on cropping up time after time. Some, like me, though growing out of trainspotting, have always carried on railway modelling (even in my teacher training days I'd take a model with me to fiddle with in the evenings). Many (mostly boys) of my generation (the post-War baby boomers) were trainspotters and had train sets as kids. Then, life got in the way until, in retirement, they return to railway modelling. Not to what they knew as kids - Hornby-Dublo (for richer kids), Graham Farish (for even richer kids), Trix (for those who couldn't make up their mind, rich or not) or Tri-ang (for poor kids, like me), but a fantastic selection of accurate scale models. Almost to a man (and it's almost exclusively masculine) they want to model what they remember as boys. How do I arrive at this conclusion? By speaking to hundreds of my peers at the many shows I attend now as a demonstrator.  

 

Many, though they might have learned basic modelling skills as kids, now find that things are more tricky in later life because of failing faculties (particularly eyesight, as I now find peering through floaters). Some never learned to solder, so complex metal loco and rolling stock kits are intimidating, though I've had some real 'old age' rapid learners in my time as a model railway tutor. Some have become friends, and I help them on a one-to-one basis here or in their homes. One (and his wife) have just started building a model railway in retirement and they're doing rather well. Their grandchildren are fascinated, though their children never were - it's as if the interest has skipped a generation. 

 

Several are time-rich (and even cash-rich) but skill-poor. I make it my business to help them in whichever way I can, but they have to 'do their homework' so to speak. I admit to being very critical in my assessments, especially if they haven't tried or not taken advice. My success rate? Almost 100%, which says more for their determination than my teaching. Not all are old (like me) and several 'youngsters' also visit, now more out of friendship than a need to be shown things. A few are mere 'children', but they learn very fast and soon no longer need the mutterings of a grumpy old git to assist them. 

 

The problem for the futures (or as I see it), is that the older modellers far outnumber the younger ones and parity won't eventually be achieved because of growth of interest among the latter but because of mortality in the former. Let's hope that's a few more years away. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Tony Wright

[APOLLO]

It's more "Nature Watch" than "Train Watch" these days when on a train journey. I never fail to notice the ever abundant and rampant vegetation.

 

I too think of the past when on a train, yes some stations are brighter, cleaner and so are many trains - but for me the magic somehow ain't there (mostly) anymore. 

 

Incidentally Network Rail did quite a lot of tree and vegetation removal around Wigan last year, especially around Springs Branch, the depot being made viewable again from Taylors Lane bridge just to the south. I took a visit there the other day (just passing - no camera) - the vegetation is back and seemingly with a vengeance. We need the Yanks to straf our railways with their B52 bombers loaded with "Agent Orange" (a strong herbicide & defoliant) !!.

 

Anyway, the modern image modeler will help keep "Woodland Scenics" in business I suppose !!!

 

Brit15

[allan downes]

What started me off in railway modelling was back in 1962/3 when I found myself attracted to two things in a model railway shop window - A fully assembled Faller kit of a suburban house during construction ( not thinking of course that you had to build the kit ) and a model railway that worked if you put a shilling in a slot and it went round twice.

 

It was a city themed thing where the entire railway ran through a deep, brick built cutting and station with the  main station buildings spanning the cutting with access to the platforms by covered stair wells.

 

Thinking that it was for sale, I wanted to buy it, along with the Faller buildings at which point the guy behind the counter told me, in so many words, to  PO - so I did and set out to build my own.

 

Anyway, the results left a lot, a very lot, to be desired so my interest in model railways were shelved for a good few years and were again rekindled when I was allowed to build a model railway in my rented room in a prefab in Romford. That I sold to finance the sudden idea of eloping with a certain beautiful woman to Leicester who's father didn't like either model railways and, even less, blokes of my suspicious reputation suddenly carrying off his only daughter although his wife didn't protest too much and even supported it  by supplying a clean pair of socks without holes in them (her husbands ) and ironing my suit later for the wedding.

 

A year later I built Pipers Mead and, not long after that, met Tony Wright at Warners in Bourne, exchanged a few ripe words and the kind that are banned on this forum, or any other forum come to that, and the rest is history.

 

Allan. 

[Lecorbusier]

Thanks again Tim,

 

The theme of one-time trainspotters (one word?) becoming railway modellers in later life keeps on cropping up time after time. Some, like me, though growing out of trainspotting, have always carried on railway modelling (even in my teacher training days I'd take a model with me to fiddle with in the evenings). Many (mostly boys) of my generation (the post-War baby boomers) were trainspotters and had train sets as kids. Then, life got in the way until, in retirement, they return to railway modelling. Not to what they knew as kids - Hornby-Dublo (for richer kids), Graham Farish (for even richer kids), Trix (for those who couldn't make up their mind, rich or not) or Tri-ang (for poor kids, like me), but a fantastic selection of accurate scale models. Almost to a man (and it's almost exclusively masculine) they want to model what they remember as boys. How do I arrive at this conclusion? By speaking to hundreds of my peers at the many shows I attend now as a demonstrator.  

 

Many, though they might have learned basic modelling skills as kids, now find that things are more tricky in later life because of failing faculties (particularly eyesight, as I now find peering through floaters). Some never learned to solder, so complex metal loco and rolling stock kits are intimidating, though I've had some real 'old age' rapid learners in my time as a model railway tutor. Some have become friends, and I help them on a one-to-one basis here or in their homes. One (and his wife) have just started building a model railway in retirement and they're doing rather well. Their grandchildren are fascinated, though their children never were - it's as if the interest has skipped a generation. 

 

Several are time-rich (and even cash-rich) but skill-poor. I make it my business to help them in whichever way I can, but they have to 'do their homework' so to speak. I admit to being very critical in my assessments, especially if they haven't tried or not taken advice. My success rate? Almost 100%, which says more for their determination than my teaching. Not all are old (like me) and several 'youngsters' also visit, now more out of friendship than a need to be shown things. A few are mere 'children', but they learn very fast and soon no longer need the mutterings of a grumpy old git to assist them. 

 

The problem for the futures (or as I see it), is that the older modellers far outnumber the younger ones and parity won't eventually be achieved because of growth of interest among the latter but because of mortality in the former. Let's hope that's a few more years away. 

 

You may well be right .... I don't have enough contact with other modellers to know. I fear with all the modern entertainments and distractions now available, the demographic for railway modelling as a hobby is unlikely to start much earlier than mid 40s nowadays (the exceptions prove the rule). I will just have to keep my fingers crossed that 40 to 50 somethings will keep popping out from the woodwork year on year to keep things going into the future. Model trainsets amongst the young if my experience is anything to go by are still pretty popular, so the seed does keep getting resown.

[Andy Hayter]

....................

 

The theme of one-time trainspotters (one word?) becoming railway modellers in later life keeps on cropping up time after time. Some, like me, though growing out of trainspotting, have always carried on railway modelling (even in my teacher training days I'd take a model with me to fiddle with in the evenings). Many (mostly boys) of my generation (the post-War baby boomers) were trainspotters and had train sets as kids. Then, life got in the way until, in retirement, they return to railway modelling. Not to what they knew as kids - Hornby-Dublo (for richer kids), Graham Farish (for even richer kids), Trix (for those who couldn't make up their mind, rich or not) or Tri-ang (for poor kids, like me), but a fantastic selection of accurate scale models. Almost to a man (and it's almost exclusively masculine) they want to model what they remember as boys. How do I arrive at this conclusion? By speaking to hundreds of my peers at the many shows I attend now as a demonstrator.  

 

 

 

 

 

Tony 

I don't dispute your observation, but a few years ago Andy ran a questionnaire on the site and this clearly showed that around 50% of us cannot possibly model what we saw in our youth - too many (based on the age profiles given) model grouping and earlier as well as too many modelling the current scene.  So despite a majority modelling end of steam and early diesel (which would seem to fit with the generally held view of we model what we remember as youths), the statistics when broken down suggest otherwise.

 

I wonder - and this is sheer speculation - whether the long term modellers amongst us (ie those who while they may have taken a break late teens into the twenties, have come back to modelling - if they ever left - relatively "early") are more prepared to model outside of our youth period and perhaps area, than perhaps the later arrivals - those in their 40s and 50s who have arrived (back) with modelling.

 

It really would be interesting to see if the relationship between age and period(s) modelled has changed in the last 5 or so years.  (ANDY this is a really big HINT if you are reading this.)  It could well be that there has been a marked shift due to the availability of rtr models ( sorry Tony I know we dinosaurs would prefer a self build).

Edited September 21, 2017 by Andy Hayter

[Tony Wright]

Tony 

I don't dispute your observation, but a few years ago Andy ran a questionnaire on the site and this clearly showed that around 50% of us cannot possibly model what we saw in our youth - too many (based on the age profiles given) model grouping and earlier as well as too many modelling the current scene.  So despite a majority modelling end of steam and early diesel (which would seem to fit with the generally held view of we model what we remember as youths), the statistics when broken down suggest otherwise.

 

I wonder - and this is sheer speculation - whether the long term modellers amongst us (ie those who while they may have taken a break late teens into the twenties, have come back to modelling - if they ever left - relatively "early") are more prepared to model outside of our youth period and perhaps area, than perhaps the later arrivals - those in their 40s and 50s who have arrived (back) with modelling.

 

It really would be interesting to see if the relationship between age and period(s) modelled has changed in the last 5 or so years.  (ANDY this is a really big HINT if you are reading this.)  It could well be that there has been a marked shift due to the availability of rtr models ( sorry Tony I know we dinosaurs would prefer a self build).

Andy,

 

Thanks for your response and contribution to the discussion. 

 

I only really have my own anecdotal evidence gleaned from attending shows more recently as to the current 'demographic' in the hobby. Empirical evidence could well be obtained by another RMweb survey perhaps. 

 

It's just that as I look around at shows, most punters are late middle aged men, many layout operators are the same and so are many traders. Of course, there are exceptions, and there are some outstanding younger modellers out there.

 

Again, through anecdotal evidence, many clubs have an ageing (though not always diminishing as yet) membership. Some, like the Spalding Club (of which I'm now an honorary member - thank you gentlemen), do have a thriving younger section (in their teens) but it seems as further education beckons the (now older) youngsters leave and do not always return as adults. The club of which I've been longest as a member, Wolverhampton MRC, is facing a real crisis for the future with regard to membership. I might have mentioned this before, but when I joined in 1973 (at almost 27), I was just below the average age. Now, at almost 71, I'm just above the average age of the membership. Other clubs must be in the same situation. We just cannot build or take out large exhibition layouts any more and there is nobody else to take on the WMRC tradition.

 

I joined Chester MRC as a sprog in the early-'60s - some mates and I just went along. We got told off (as we should have done) for trying to run our RTR stuff over scale track, but we just got on with it. Our parents weren't needed as chaperons, nor was any 'accredited' adult put in charge of us. That's not the case for youngsters at clubs now where there appears to be a (justifiable) reluctance to take on the responsibility for junior members.

 

As another indicator of 'decline', even the great model shop, Modellers Mecca, which opened around the same time as my arriving in the West Midlands, is closing its doors after 40 years or so. 

 

Yet, in terms of what's currently available (in RTR/RTP it has to be said), we've (though it doesn't bother me)  never had it so good. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Willie Whizz]

Ah, Nottingham Midland. Used to cycle past the main entrance twice a day commuting to/from work when I lived there.

 

The trams run over the station on the same alignment as the GCR used but it is a new bridge built for them as the GC one disappeared a long time ago as did the river bridge at Wilford. When the new bridge was built it was erected on the GCR alignment north of the station and jacked across the station inch by inch until it reached its supports.

 

 

Yes, the Nottingham Express Transit (NET) Tram does cross the (formerly) Midland Station over a new viaduct following the alignment of the former Great Central one, before descending a comparatively steep ramp down to street level and diverging into Lines 2 and 3.

 

However, immediately north of the station the tram does in fact run along a short stretch of the original GC blue brick  viaduct, widened at parapet level to accommodate passenger platforms at the terminus of Line 1 which were subsequently abandoned when the system was extended and a new tram-stop built actually above the station.

 

It's a long story, but nearly 30 years ago I was seconded by my employer to an urban regeneration organisation which came-up with the original concept which became NET, and did much to promote and establish the viability of the project.  Genuine modern tramway ('Light Rapid Transit') experts were pretty thin on the ground back then in the UK - the Manchester system was just being constructed (and was - and remains - untypical) so I had perforce to become one.  From German sources I quickly learned an important "rule of thumb":  for every £1 spent on building a yard of tramway across virgin ground, you would spend £3 putting it 'on-street' (mainly because of the underground utility services); £7 putting it on embankment or viaduct; and £20 putting it into tunnel.  (This, incidentally, is why extensive 'Underground' systems are nowadays only viable in the centres of capital and other very major cities, because of the land values issue).

 

Indeed, the original (quite literally) 'back of an envelope' rough sketch diagram of where NET Line 1 might run was drawn by me, complete with most of the locations eventually selected for stops (I think I still have the envelope in my loft!), and the availability of the remaining existing ex-GC viaduct between the Lace Market and the Station appeared a significant bonus; built to last 200 years it was still in pretty good condition despite a quarter-century of neglect.  And of course, given my interest in old railways, I was very glad to be able to suggest its incorporation.

 

Some while later, after my return to my 'proper' job, it was decided at the detail design stage that the road alignments and their supporting structures around the back of the Broad Marsh Centre required more of a "wiggle to the left" for the Tram, meaning that a new viaduct structure would need to be built and the demolition of the more northerly GC arches; however the new structure did join-up with the older one once Canal Street was crossed.  I'm quite proud therefore to have been able to find a new use for at least a little bit of a historic railway structure.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Willie Whizz

[robertcwp]

Yes, the Nottingham Express Transit (NET) Tram does cross the (formerly) Midland Station over a new viaduct following the alignment of the former Great Central one, before descending a comparatively steep ramp down to street level and diverging into Lines 2 and 3.

 

 

I read somewhere that the new bridge stands on the foundations of the old one. The GC is also used for a couple of miles from the south side of the Trent to Ruddington Lane, including a bridge under an A road that was built in the 1960s.

 

This view has now changed as the approach to Weekday Cross junction and the tunnel mouth have disappeared under a new development:

P1030239m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

I believe the red brick building on the right is ex-GC and about all that remains of the Queen's Walk goods depot and offices:

20170703_145209am by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

On the GC near the site of Wilford Brick Works:

P1080068am by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

The bridge referred to above:

P1080066am by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Clive Mortimore]

Andy,

 

Thanks for your response and contribution to the discussion. 

 

I only really have my own anecdotal evidence gleaned from attending shows more recently as to the current 'demographic' in the hobby. Empirical evidence could well be obtained by another RMweb survey perhaps. 

 

It's just that as I look around at shows, most punters are late middle aged men, many layout operators are the same and so are many traders. Of course, there are exceptions, and there are some outstanding younger modellers out there.

 

Again, through anecdotal evidence, many clubs have an ageing (though not always diminishing as yet) membership. Some, like the Spalding Club (of which I'm now an honorary member - thank you gentlemen), do have a thriving younger section (in their teens) but it seems as further education beckons the (now older) youngsters leave and do not always return as adults. The club of which I've been longest as a member, Wolverhampton MRC, is facing a real crisis for the future with regard to membership. I might have mentioned this before, but when I joined in 1973 (at almost 27), I was just below the average age. Now, at almost 71, I'm just above the average age of the membership. Other clubs must be in the same situation. We just cannot build or take out large exhibition layouts any more and there is nobody else to take on the WMRC tradition.

 

I joined Chester MRC as a sprog in the early-'60s - some mates and I just went along. We got told off (as we should have done) for trying to run our RTR stuff over scale track, but we just got on with it. Our parents weren't needed as chaperons, nor was any 'accredited' adult put in charge of us. That's not the case for youngsters at clubs now where there appears to be a (justifiable) reluctance to take on the responsibility for junior members.

 

As another indicator of 'decline', even the great model shop, Modellers Mecca, which opened around the same time as my arriving in the West Midlands, is closing its doors after 40 years or so. 

 

Yet, in terms of what's currently available (in RTR/RTP it has to be said), we've (though it doesn't bother me)  never had it so good. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony

 

Could your observation of the people who are railway modellers of a certain age liking locomotives of the 1950s be because they are the ones who stop at your demo stand and chat? The ones who are into diesels stop four tables down and chat to the DEMU lads and those who model different gauges and scales do so at their points of interest.

 

Are model railway clubs a thing of the past? Are interwebthingy sites like this the future clubs?

 

I can understand clubs reluctance to look after other peoples kids for a host of reasons. Back in the early 80s when I joined the Witham club we had a rule regarding under 16 membership, anyone under 16 had to be accompanied by a parent.

 

As I have said before let us enjoy our hobby now and let the future sort its self out.

 

Back to getting kids interested in railways, my eldest was until uni.

My youngest only ever wanted to kick a football about, don't know why I never did. 

Or was it in his genes, my brother had interest form some big clubs when he was young but too many injuries playing non league football put pay to that. He use to play football indoors when Mum went out. 

My Granddad played for the RAF between WW1 and WW2.

My Dad's two brothers, Charlie has an MBE for his work with youth football, and John had a Saturday job with Chelsea.

Still no idea why my youngest wasn't into model railways?

[Lecorbusier]

It's just that as I look around at shows, most punters are late middle aged men, many layout operators are the same and so are many traders. .....

 

Again, through anecdotal evidence, many clubs have an ageing (though not always diminishing as yet) membership. Some, like the Spalding Club (of which I'm now an honorary member - thank you gentlemen), do have a thriving younger section (in their teens) but it seems as further education beckons the (now older) youngsters leave and do not always return as adults. .....

 

 

I wonder how many are like me ? ..... I returned to the hobby in my mid 40s having modelled enthusiastically up until 6th form at school. University, the excitement of carving a path in my job, marriage and then kids drove out active modelling ... though not a nostalgic interest. I am still in the thick of it as far as work is concerned and with a family - youngest 10 - eldest 15 - weekends and holidays are pretty much spoken for.

 

As a result I model late at night and early in the morning with a few stolen hours on occasional weekends. Being an active member of a club is out of the question ... though I hope this will change as children depart (a good 10 years distant). As far as shows are concerned, I am lucky if I attend a couple in the year. On the shop front, the internet is a god send and almost all my purchasing happens in this manner.

 

My main contact with other railway modellers is via forums ... RMWEB and Scaleforum.

 

If I am not a one off case ... then hopefully your observations at shows and regarding club membership are not the whole story. .... here's hoping anyway

[mullie]

I suppose my modelling path is fairly typical. don't remember steam, started at 13 having spent my formative years building Airfix and Tamiya kits, even belonged to a club for a while but then University, building a career, moving roughly every three years until I was 30 meant I built the occasional model but never a layout as I had nowhere to put one though kept reading magazines on a regular basis. Bought first house when we got married, it had a loft, dabbled in reasonably complete but small layouts on very limited budgets and little time especially once children came along. Just before we moved I bought my first DCC controller but have only used it for loco control, don't like sound, sonic quality not great and too expensive for what it is and I would need all the ambient sounds as well for it to make sense. I like the quiet of model trains and often listen to music whilst operating anyway.

 

We moved to Dorset in 2004, I gained the side of the garage, shared with the car, budget very tight so started building track from PCB and got it to work. I continued detailing rtr, buying secondhand, bashing things and building plastic coach and wagon kits. This year I built my first working chassis and the Lochgorm starter etched wagon fret and it works. I do have quite radical plans to drive my modelling on now the children are grown up and one at University but more of that another time.

 

I start work early, finish late and even during school holidays don't often have significantly more time because of another side to my job and family commitments. How do I stay motivated? I've always built small layouts but even they can take years to get anywhere substantial and I tend to work on specific projects, always completing one before I move onto the next one. I don't buy what I don't need, means less money for CDs etc! I like building things and am currently overhauling older models with new etched chassis etc as I can spread the cost over a few months, I could spend the money in one go but as a family we have other priorities, this works for me. I have to build everything as contact with other real modellers only happens at the 2-3 exhibitions I attend, nearest model shop is 90 minutes away so I rely on the internet. It can be difficult to get hold of things here so I break the rules using artists materials and whatever I can find but then I am a broad brush modeller, don't count the rivets on my models! Did go along to my local club for a few weeks but it is not for me.

 

My first memories are 70s blue, class 309s, 306s, classes 31,37 and 47 on the GE mainline and later south London when at University. However, my areas of interest are East Anglian lines including East London in the 1945-50 period and south/west London circa 1967. no real idea why. 

 

Martyn

[96701]

I don't think I have ever been a railway modeller.My dad bought a train set when I was 8 for me him and mates to play with. At that time we lived in a house with a three quarter sized snooker table in it and it had a wooden cover. It wasn't long before a 5' by 5' chipboard turned up, and we built a layout with Series 3 and Super 4 track. It included 2 points leading off to one edge of the board. I built an Airfix village, platforms and WH Smiths kiosk and bounded the track with Airfix fencing, painted the fields green and populated them with Airfix cows and sheep. The 2 points leading off one edge were at different heights, the embankments having been constructed using balsa uprights with chicken wire stapled to them and covered in papier maché. A little later a second 5 X 5 board turned up, so the high level point went to a Triang coal drop where the train could drop coal into a waiting vehicle below. We just happened to have a siding underneath with another hopper for it to fall into.

 

We moved house when I was 13 and had to dismantle the layout and moved into a much smaller house. Fast forward 11 years, and I find myself in my own house in York and needed to do something to avoid going to the pub. Back to Airfix! Now building coal trucks and Presflos by the bucketful. I also bought a whitemetal kit of an 04 diesel shunter with a DS10 motor. I glued the body together, built the chassis and put it together, more on this later. Couldn't quite keep out of pubs and met Mrs 96701. Fast forward 10 years and we have a spare room and a seven year old son. Out comes some old track........ useless. Had to buy new and pinned it to some Sundela.

 

That didn't last long before we had to move, then we had a loft above the garage, and bought N gauge. Tim was soldering wires by the age of 11 (1994) and got his D of E Silver by building an extension, laying the track and wiring it (as well as the obligatory hike).

 

Had to move again, so dismantled that layout and haven't really had one since. Tim on the other hand as had a go at building 2FS (gave up as he found it 'too anal). So he's gone back to N gauge and is awaiting a Pendolino.

 

Getting back to my 04 (remember that?). I met Geoff Brewin a few years ago and showed him my 04 without pick ups. He took sympathy on me and fitted some pickups in seconds, put it on his layout and off it went!

 

Anyway, what I'd like to point out is that my lad is still into railway modelling and has never been a train spotter. Sorry it's taken a while to get to the point, but I feel better for that little stream of consciousness.

Edited September 21, 2017 by 96701

[t-b-g]

I wasn't going to say any more about DCC and sound until.....

 

Yesterday, 5 of us had a session operating the DCC layout I have mentioned previously. We gave the rest of the group the choice as to whether they used sound or not and all decided that it was better without. The others are not modellers, or even railway enthusiasts, just mates of the layout owner who come round for a social evening "playing trains".They decided that as there are several stations and some are close together with a narrow operating well between them, hearing locos at the "other" station was just too intrusive.

 

Then the trouble started. A couple of locos wouldn't work at all. I put them on the programming track and "read" the chips, which had the correct numbers. We put them back on the layout and they worked fine, so I don't know why they didn't work first time. Until one of them decided it was double heading and another loco in the fiddle yard ran forward onto a point causing a shut down. This happened three times during the evening, all at random. Nobody knows how to set up a double header and certainly hadn't done so but I have had to learn how to undo one. We have removed all momentum from the locos as judging where to stop them on uncoupling magnets was a nightmare with it. Except the one loco decided that it didn't like having no momentum and went back to maximum momentum, all by itself, just as it was supposed to be slowing to stop at the terminus. The buffer stops were up to the job. The relevant cv had just changed. All by itself. The loco had run earlier with no problems. I changed it back and all was well again.

 

We had a new loco, which I altered from No 3 to 5050. It seemed reasonable, that being the number on the cabside. We put it on the layout and it wouldn't run, so I "read" the chip and it had decided that it wanted to be No 6914. Again, quite random. There is no way I punched that number in. I did it again, pressing exactly the same buttons. This time it ended up as 5050.

 

Another loco, a Britannia, No 70045, wouldn't work. So I tried to "read" the chip on the programming track and some of the controllers on the layout (not all) stopped working and we got an error message No 44 on some and random flashing letters on the others. They all showed either H, A, L or T and if you got enough controllers together (we have around 15 Lenz LH01 types) you could see that it was trying to spell "HALT" with one letter on each one. Nobody seems to know what that is all about despite phone calls to various "experts" today. It isn't in the manual. The best response we got was "There might be a gremlin in the system".

 

After rebooting the system, I "read" the chip again and the same thing happened. So I reset CV 8 to the factory settings and as 3, it worked fine. So I renumbered it to 0045 and the whole system crashed again with the error message 44. So I reset it again and numbered it 0054 just as a desperate last throw of the dice and it was happy at that. So why on earth can I call it 0054 but not 0045?

 

At this point, having wasted an hour of operating time and with his friends standing around wondering what the heck was going on, the layout owner was within a whisker of ripping out the DCC and starting again with DC, even though it would have meant rewiring the whole (and very extensive) layout. The layout and the DCC system must have known this because at this point, apart from a faulty socket that killed the layout every time you plugged a controller in (which could just as easily have happened on a DC layout), it worked reasonably well for the rest of the evening apart from having to reboot to clear a couple more error 44 messages and the odd double heading incident.

 

It was my most frustrating experience ever with model railways mainly because I didn't understand what was going on or what I should do to correct it.

 

I never really had any inclination towards going down the DCC route for my own modelling. These events have dispelled any lingering thoughts I may have had about giving it a try.

 

I thought long and hard before posting this as I must be coming across as very negative and the DCC/DC thing has been done to death. Part of the reason I am doing so is the hope that somebody reading it can tell us what error 44 is and what we need to do to get rid of it!

[St Enodoc]

I don't think I have ever been a railway modeller.My dad bought a train set when I was 8 for me him and mates to play with. At that time we lived in a house with a three quarter sized snooker table in it and it had a wooden cover. It wasn't long before a 5' by 5' chipboard turned up, and we built a layout with Series 3 and Super 4 track. It included 2 points leading off to one edge of the board. I built an Airfix village, platforms and WH Smiths kiosk and bounded the track with Airfix fencing, painted the fields green and populated them with Airfix cows and sheep. The 2 points leading off one edge were at different heights, the embankments having been constructed using balsa uprights with chicken wire stapled to them and covered in papier maché. A little later a second 5 X 5 board turned up, so the high level point went to a Triang coal drop where the train could drop coal into a waiting vehicle below. We just happened to have a siding underneath with another hopper for it to fall into.

 

We moved house when I was 13 and had to dismantle the layout and moved into a much smaller house. Fast forward 11 years, and I find myself in my own house in York and needed to do something to avoid going to the pub. Back to Airfix! Now building coal trucks and Presflos by the bucketful. I also bought a whitemetal kit of an 04 diesel shunter with a DS10 motor. I glued the body together, built the chassis and put it together, more on this later. Couldn't quite keep out of pubs and met Mrs 96701. Fast forward 10 years and we have a spare room and a seven year old son. Out comes some old track........ useless. Had to buy new and pinned it to some Sundela.

 

That didn't last long before we had to move, then we had a loft above the garage, and bought N gauge. Tim was soldering wires by the age of 11 (1994) and got his D of E Silver by building an extension, laying the track and wiring it (as well as the obligatory hike).

 

Had to move again, so dismantled that layout and haven't really had one since. Tim on the other hand as had a go at building 2FS (gave up as he found it 'too anal). So he's gone back to N gauge and is awaiting a Pendolino.

 

Getting back to my 04 (remember that?). I met Geoff Brewin a few years ago and showed him my 04 without pick ups. He took sympathy on me and fitted some pickups in seconds, put it on his layout and off it went!

 

Anyway, what I'd like to point out is that my lad is still into railway modelling and has never been a train spotter. Sorry it's taken a while to get to the point, but I feel better for that little stream of consciousness.

What Phil is too modest to mention is that he (and I) were lucky enough to have careers where we were actually paid for playing with trains!

[kandc_au]

Richard,

 

You might well be right with regard to those modelling more recent times. All they need to do is go to their nearest railway station and just listen (and/or make the equivalent of a tape recording). 

 

I wonder who these 'modern modellers' are. On Tuesday, Mo and I had a day out in Nottingham, taking a train from Grantham. The two-car unit we went in certainly sounded very different to the 91s and HSTs on the main line, and it was almost as noisy inside. There were two 'observers' on the station when we left, noting numbers, but they weren't boys of a very-impressionable age (as would have been the case 50-60 years ago). Those 'boys' are now the generation which makes up the greatest number of modellers in the hobby today. 

 

On the journey, the number of times the unit was brushed by overhanging trees (especially nearer Nottingham) made me wonder just how much one might see of the railway on a model replicating the scene today. I have to say, Nottingham Station was clean, bright and a pleasant place to begin or end a journey, but I doubt if it held much in the way of interest for enthusiasts. There appeared to be several different units present (one from the 'North' plastered with images and text which had no empathy with the forms on to which they were applied), including HSTs and some strange-looking inside-bearing units in East Midlands colours.  

 

There were no spotters present (and thus no future modellers?). My mind went back some 50-odd years ago when I last stood on Nottingham (Midland) Station. The first thing I saw then was a Black Five clattering over the GC bridge (is that where the trams now cross?). There was a mix of steam and diesel in the station, the former mainly ex-LMS types and the latter mainly Peaks. We'd stopped off at Trent on the way and one didn't know where to look, such was the number of trains of all sorts from all directions, all governed by some wonderfully-antique MR lower-quadrant signals. A much more interesting scene to model than today's? I think so, but then Mo quite rightly said that I was probably the only railway enthusiast travelling to and from Nottingham on Tuesday, and today's railways aren't run for enthusiasts (were they ever?). Certainly, the DMU between Derby and Nottingham I travelled on in the early-'60s was packed with trainspotters, it being a summer Saturday in the school holidays. 

No train spotters present.....Further up: only a couple of guys taking numbers who were not young.

50 years ago you were watching steam. With that the motion's of the loco's turning, the steam hissing, the smoke wafting, All this is of interest to young and impressionable lads like us, and is to kids of today WHEN they get to see it!

What is there today, a bit of noise and the train moves off. What interest is there to the young  and impressionable boys of today?

You are fortunate in the UK with the number of preserved railways you have there, but it is still not enough for boys to see everyday and get the the thrill in their blood of watching a loco working!

In the modelling scene, it seems to me that those who model the diseasel era, don't seem to hang on to their loco's, like those who model the steam era. I could be wrong but it is just an observation I have mad in recent years. 

Maybe it is the changing logo's......who knows!

 

Khris

[Clive Mortimore]

No train spotters present.....Further up: only a couple of guys taking numbers who were not young.

50 years ago you were watching steam. With that the motion's of the loco's turning, the steam hissing, the smoke wafting, All this is of interest to young and impressionable lads like us, and is to kids of today WHEN they get to see it!

What is there today, a bit of noise and the train moves off. What interest is there to the young  and impressionable boys of today?

You are fortunate in the UK with the number of preserved railways you have there, but it is still not enough for boys to see everyday and get the the thrill in their blood of watching a loco working!

In the modelling scene, it seems to me that those who model the diseasel era, don't seem to hang on to their loco's, like those who model the steam era. I could be wrong but it is just an observation I have mad in recent years. 

Maybe it is the changing logo's......who knows!

 

Khris

Hi Khris

 

I must be the exception, some of these scratchbuilt locos are 30 years old and I still have them.

 

Time to stop the steam v diesel thing, just as it is time to bury the DC v DCC, and stupid gauge stuff. We are all railway modellers.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Andrew P]

Hi Khris

 

I must be the exception, some of these scratchbuilt locos are 30 years old and I still have them.

s010a.jpg

s011.jpg

s027.jpg

 

Time to stop the steam v diesel thing, just as it is time to bury the DC v DCC, and stupid gauge stuff. We are all railway modellers.

As you've probably seen in my Videos and on your visit's to The Old Potting Shed Clive, I do run what I like, but I do keep in periods, so Steam, Steam / Transission, Blue, (from the 70's when I first got into Trains, real and model) and 90's Railfreight, (my spotting period). I have to confess, I don't remember EVER seeing a Steam Loco before preservation, despite being born in 1950. I spent my youth / pre teens, at Heathrow Plane spotting, teens falling off Trials and Scramble Bikes, then the usual Girls. I feel I have dipped out on Steam completely, but I am going to the GCR tomorrow.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Andrew P