lmsforever Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Having suffered on a LM train today that was heaving with people and only a four car unit,I wonder if the DFT will be looking at the contract conditions of the franchise.The previous train was cancelled and and at some stations passengers were unable to board .A fellow passenger said that this has been the norm for weeks ,and a friend from Chester said that every train he used today was full and standing.Why do LM persist with four car trains on Saturdays when passenger numbers obviously require eight car trains? I know about the driver problem,you cant blame somebody for working for a decent wage but you can blame other toc,s for not training their own drivers and causing problems all round.I believe DB are in a similar situation , this is something that should be addressed as soon as possible as passengers are suffering discomfort and delays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold CovDriver Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2012 Firstly can I put you straight on the overcrowding issue this is down to the weather and us LM accepting other passengers from other TOC's that can't run there services for one reason or another and also there was 4 shows on the NEC Birmingham International today and was very busy also there was an external problem at Birmingham airport which caused short term problems along the Coventry - Birmingham corridor this afternoon. And the majority of the time we don't need to run 8 car sets during the weekends as to be honest other than during school holidays and when we run our great escape promotions are the only times it may get a little busier. And as for your fellow passenger what absolute rubbish only today was it busier than a normal Saturday they're probably just moaning because there wasn't a seat for them and if you look in the conditions of carriage which covers all TOC's we dont have to provide a seat just a journey from A to B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RANGERS Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Firstly can I put you straight on the overcrowding issue this is down to the weather and us LM accepting other passengers from other TOC's that can't run there services for one reason or another and also there was 4 shows on the NEC Birmingham International today and was very busy also there was an external problem at Birmingham airport which caused short term problems along the Coventry - Birmingham corridor this afternoon. And the majority of the time we don't need to run 8 car sets during the weekends as to be honest other than during school holidays and when we run our great escape promotions are the only times it may get a little busier. And as for your fellow passenger what absolute rubbish only today was it busier than a normal Saturday they're probably just moaning because there wasn't a seat for them and if you look in the conditions of carriage which covers all TOC's we dont have to provide a seat just a journey from A to B. I'd suspect that most customers have a reasonable expectation of a seat on their journey from A to B, if this isn't the case, why have any? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpion Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 events at the NEC, presumably without any advance publicity, passengers expecting a seat, whatever next you are not doing the industry any favours with "we don't have to give them a seat" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave47549 Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold CovDriver Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2012 events at the NEC, presumably without any advance publicity, passengers expecting a seat, whatever next you are not doing the industry any favours with "we don't have to give them a seat" Not doing the industry any favours !! hmmmm we dont make up the national conditions of carriage you should perhaps take up your moan at ATOC we do what they say or request !! Perhaps I did word it wrong but it still stands when you purchase a ticket your not actually paying for a seat but you are actually paying for a journey from A to B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold CovDriver Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2012 No point arguing about it on a model railway forum though is there... I didn't start it I was just informing the OP the facts of his travels today on our services it really annoys me that some people can't be bothered to listen to announcments at stations and onboard trains and refuse to listen to the reasons why services are disrupted or heavily loaded especially when it's not our fault i.e the problems with an aircraft at Birmingham international especially in this case if there is a problem with an approaching aircraft the air traffic control tower cant switch off the OHLE without any notice luckily that didnt happen today. There rant over I can't be bothered to continue this whinge/moan any further. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 It's impossible to cater for every instance of overcrowding. Units may just have to go for routine maintenance and so on. There just isn't the standby capacity on today's railway to deal with short-notice peaks in traffic. and as cov guard says, with circumstances outside their control like severe floods all over the place and faulty aircraft, don't knock the railway! Why is it, whenever a train is late or overcrowded it's the end of the world? Aircraft are regularly late; roads are jammed every day and not a word is said...I rest my case m'lud! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold CovDriver Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2012 Much appreciated Mickey just winds us traincrew up to the max sometimes I was actually defending you....but never mind... Its nice (in a way) to see a railwayman defend the ToC they work for Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2012 Judging by what I saw on my train and quite a few others it was a busy day - end of story. There was football in Coventry, folk were clearly going to & from shopping in Brum in large numbers and there were a heck of a lot visiting the NEC so lots of trains were very well loaded or running F&S. Quite what the railway is supposed to do about this is always a difficult question - it was a difficult question 40 years ago and it has been every year in between, all that has varied over that period has been whatever drives peaks in loadings. For instance to what extent can the railway predict the attractiveness, and therefore impact on train loadings, of various shows at the NEC? Today's weather forecast was miserable - logic says that would deter shoppers and other leisure journeys, but if it did t wasn't by much. And even if your crystal ball shines brightly and accurately there are other problems to contend with. Some could be catered for in the past when there was still spare stock (and, occasionally, traincrews) around but that is not the case today - the industry has changed and it has far less slack in it. LM - from what I could see this evening did have the odd cancellation - but it was still runninga heck of a lot of trains and most weren't full. The reason for that iss simple, the 'going home' part of people's leisure day tends to be far more spread than the morning 'going to' part; and that leaves train operators with a quandary - which (if either) do they cater for? Do they take sets out of maintenance to strengthen, do they try to get additional traincrew on duty, do they pay for extra paths, will the extra loadings (if they happen) cover the additional costs? It's not always as simple as it looks from outside the fence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted November 25, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2012 And the majority of the time we don't need to run 8 car sets during the weekends as to be honest other than during school holidays and when we run our great escape promotions are the only times it may get a little busier. and just to back you up, this is the scene on the first LM service out of crewe to brum this morning, 8 car 350, everyone must be rammed into the back unit as a lot got on at crewe and stafford and the train obviously has to draw along the platform due to the length so everyone piles in the back end rather than walk down the platform one thing i find with the 350s is when joe public walks down the train and gets to the first class section (in the centre of the train) a lot turn round thinking the rest of the train is 1st class so normally walking through the "posh" section you will find a seat (or half empty carriage) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 Well I obviously should not have started this thread should I ,sorry to upset you Mickey but the train was full and uncomfortable ,its the first ime in many years its been like this.But the point I was making is ,this sought of happenning does not do the railway any good and this is not on the model railway part of the forum.I was not whinging merely stating the facts and wondering if there was an answer in the long run,also Cov Guard I bet if you had been on the train your attitude would have caused a riot.So sorry if people didnt like my comments but with high fares you expect a better experience we are all allowed an opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 And as for your fellow passenger what absolute rubbish only today was it busier than a normal Saturday they're probably just moaning because there wasn't a seat for them and if you look in the conditions of carriage which covers all TOC's we dont have to provide a seat just a journey from A to B. Yet these self same companies will sell you tickets that state only valid with mandatory seat reservations. No wonder that the general public get confused. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 And even if your crystal ball shines brightly and accurately there are other problems to contend with. For example, 'The Killers' (who ?) at the MEN Arena last week. Home town gig so bound to be busy, so lots of extra units and spare crews, station staff, security etc rostered for chucking out time. Unfortunately, 5 songs in the lead singer gets a frog in his throat and suddenly the gig is off. Massive crowds descend on Piccadilly and Victoria while the units are all still on Newton Heath and Longsight and the extra crews are sitting at home watching Corrie. In the meantime I'll just repeat part of Cov Guard's original reply: the majority of the time we don't need to run 8 car sets during the weekends Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2012 I rely on LM to get me to and from work and on the whole they do indeed get me to work in the morning and then get me home in the evening. They have their moments and it is infuriating when it all goes horribly wrong but they're far from the worst TOC I use. My only real whinge is with the dreadful ride quality and cramped seating of the 350/2's, horrible trains. The 350/1's and Southern Electrostars are so much nicer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
great central Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 As soon as I opened the doors at Warrington yesterday some oaf almost pushed me out of the way, shouting about why don't we put 4 car sets on the service on a Saturday, it is 4 in the week. Anyway, everybody boards, it's full but not overcrowded by any means. Any weekday sees the same train as a 4 car full and standing. I set about doing tickets, same oaf mouthing off about why should he bother showing his ticket for this terrible service, I pointed out that he was sat down and there were a few vacant seats, still he whinges . Having had to get Police to three oiks from Dronfield at 07.30, I'm a bit miffed, so I said if you think we're so bad, why don't you use the TransPennine service half an hour either side of us? At least they have 4 cars says the oaf, so I correct him that they are 3 cars and get on my way. He said not a word at Piccadilly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I thought the driver shortage had been resolved? No 'Abbey Flyer' (Watford Junction to St.Albans Abbey) today with a bus relacement service due to lack of staff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Davis Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 and just to back you up, this is the scene on the first LM service out of crewe to brum this morning, 8 car 350, everyone must be rammed into the back unit as a lot got on at crewe and stafford and the train obviously has to draw along the platform due to the length so everyone piles in the back end rather than walk down the platform one thing i find with the 350s is when joe public walks down the train and gets to the first class section (in the centre of the train) a lot turn round thinking the rest of the train is 1st class so normally walking through the "posh" section you will find a seat (or half empty carriage) And it's got Blue seats.................. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Blue seats...................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireman Sam Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I thought the driver shortage had been resolved? No 'Abbey Flyer' (Watford Junction to St.Albans Abbey) today with a bus relacement service due to lack of staff. Nope! Only way management 'resolved' the driver shortage was to tighten up the diagrams to the extreme which now means when one train is late all your other trains are late the job I have got on Monday is so tight that if my arrival train is 1 minute late the train after my break will be 1 minute late. There is no allowance for any delays at all. Drivers are now not volunteering for rest days or Sundays because the diagrams are now very poor, so the problems are returning again it's becoming a vicious circle. Staff morale is slipping further and this will mean more people are likely to jump to another TOC. As for the Abbey flyers, Bedford/Bletchley and Coventry/Nuneatons they are the first to get binned as the company worries about the mainline first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 31, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2013 Nope! Only way management 'resolved' the driver shortage was to tighten up the diagrams to the extreme which now means when one train is late all your other trains are late the job I have got on Monday is so tight that if my arrival train is 1 minute late the train after my break will be 1 minute late. There is no allowance for any delays at all. Drivers are now not volunteering for rest days or Sundays because the diagrams are now very poor, so the problems are returning again it's becoming a vicious circle. Staff morale is slipping further and this will mean more people are likely to jump to another TOC. As for the Abbey flyers, Bedford/Bletchley and Coventry/Nuneatons they are the first to get binned as the company worries about the mainline first. Regrettably what goes around comes around - even if the problem was the result of the actions of a previous management and its half-baked cost cutting measures. But alas several 'managers' made reputations on the basis of short term cost cutting thus gaining the kudos for promotion elsewhere and leaving the mess for their successors to sort and the passengers to suffer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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