Class 30 vs 31

[The Nth Degree]

Is there a definitive list of differences between these two (almost identical) classes? I have a couple Eastern diesel books, both of which feature the same (or very similar) picture but one calls it a Class 30 and the other a Class 31. Considering the picture was taken in 1959, this is obviously a Class 30.

 

Also, I don't know if it's because I can see both sides at the same time, but are there two different body styles? It looks like there is one style with steps up to the roof and one without. I'm aware of the skinhead/headcode cab styles.

 

I have an old RJH model that I'd love to turn into an ER Class 30 but I'm struggling to find a definitive version to copy. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers, Steve

[Eggesford box]

I am sure someone more knowledgable than me will be along soon but I think you will find that it was a case of the steps up to the roof being plated over later on in their lifes after they had been reengined and become 31s

[John M Upton]

I believe with the new engines which saw them morph from Class 30 to 31, the exhaust ports were rotated through 90 degrees.

[The Nth Degree]

...steps up to the roof being plated over later on in their lifes...

 

Thanks for that. If correct, that is a right pain - I don't fancy cutting them out of my plated over 31! I'll just wait for someone to confirm that before I decide what to do. It looks like I may need a new body if that's the case.

[The Nth Degree]

Thanks for the replies. Perhaps I ought to be more specific. I'd like to model a Brush Type 2 in around the '58-'60 era in East Anglia. Obviously, they would have been fairly new at that time and all carried the Mirlees engine. However, did they all have steps up to the roof at that time? Also, there seems to be a difference on the front valances between prototypes, so when did this change?

[BrushVeteran]

Thanks for the replies. Perhaps I ought to be more specific. I'd like to model a Brush Type 2 in around the '58-'60 era in East Anglia. Obviously, they would have been fairly new at that time and all carried the Mirlees engine. However, did they all have steps up to the roof at that time? Also, there seems to be a difference on the front valances between prototypes, so when did this change?

The access steps for the boiler filler on the roof were not plated over until about 1973/4 onwards so should be on the model you wish to do.

 

The only other external modification carried out was to the engine room access door in the centre on each side. This only applied to the twenty 'pilot scheme' locos D5500-19, and this was the provision of louvres in the lower half of the door, from around 1964-8, as carried by the rest of the class 'as built'.Also these locos carried the grey/white window surrounds around the drivers cab until the time when yellow panels arrived, although one or two survived with both, in the case of D5501 & D5515, but D5517 had them painted main body colour green without yellow panels during a Stratford works repaint in 1961. As always I would recommend using a photograph of the prototype as a guide when modelling a specific locomotive. There are literally hundreds of Brush Type 2 images on Flickr sites and if modelling specifically the era you mention, 1958-60, then there would be no yellow panels.

[The Nth Degree]

That's brilliant. I may come back to you to clarify a few points but hat's a great start. Thanks very much!

[BernardTPM]

Also, there seems to be a difference on the front valances between prototypes, so when did this change?

That was very much later, in the 1980s. Those that were refurbished had the bufferbeam fairings removed and the bodies were replated without the waistband. All signs of the steps up to the roof would have been lost too, but this is well outside your required timeframe.

As all the locos were re-engined long before TOPS renumbering there were never any running with '30 xxx' numbers.

[The Nth Degree]

I'm just rereading one of my books, 'Diesels in East Anglia' and I'm getting very confused. On page 5 there are two shots of Class 30s, both taken in 1959; the first, a skinhead on the ESL hauling milks from Halesworth, no steps up to the roof as far as I can see. The second picture shows two (D5533 & D5527) waiting in Lowestoft for return holiday traffic, one a skinhead and one a headcode (both Stratford locos from the roof colour). However, they both have grills in the engine room door.

 

Can someone confirm whether the steps to the roof were only on one side please? Of the three different locos I have pictured, all taken in 1959, none of them have steps, unless they were only on one side and just by coincidence they were photographed from the other side?

[37114]

Correct, the steps up to the roof were only on one side.

[RFS]

I've just checked my Hornby Brush Type 2 (later class 30) - it's R2420A and numbered D5511. It has steps but only on one side.

[The Nth Degree]

I've just checked my Hornby Brush Type 2

Thanks for taking the time to do that!

[BrushVeteran]

That's brilliant. I may come back to you to clarify a few points but hat's a great start. Thanks very much!

No problem and pleased to help. You can PM me if you wish and if you need certain images I will do my best to help.

Brush Type 2's are my speciality and I have rather a few on my layout, so I'm glad somebody else is modelling them!

[BrushVeteran]

I'm just rereading one of my books, 'Diesels in East Anglia' and I'm getting very confused. On page 5 there are two shots of Class 30s, both taken in 1959; the first, a skinhead on the ESL hauling milks from Halesworth, no steps up to the roof as far as I can see. The second picture shows two (D5533 & D5527) waiting in Lowestoft for return holiday traffic, one a skinhead and one a headcode (both Stratford locos from the roof colour). However, they both have grills in the engine room door.

 

Can someone confirm whether the steps to the roof were only on one side please? Of the three different locos I have pictured, all taken in 1959, none of them have steps, unless they were only on one side and just by coincidence they were photographed from the other side?

 

D5527 and D5533 were both production versions with 1365hp rated power units and all locos numbered above D5520 had louvres in the engine room doors from new.

 

As a point of interest just in case you decide to choose a slightly later period, D5545, D5655-70 all had further uprated 1600hp power units from new and can be identified externally by an additional cover plate adjecent to the main radiator fan cowl on the same side as the access steps. The purpose of this was for access to the additional coolant header tank fitted to help disperse thermal expansion from the uprated engines. D5835 was further uprated to 2000hp and this carried two extra horizontal louvered grilles below those on the opposite end of the side where the access steps are, but only on that side. It carried these extra grilles even when re-engined as a Class 31 until withdrawn as 31302 in 1994.

[Flying Pig]

...one a skinhead and one a headcode (both Stratford locos from the roof colour). However, they both have grills in the engine room door.

The first few production locomotives also lacked the headcode box so the skinhead in your picture could have had the door grilles from new.

 

Edit: cross-posted with Brush Veteran's more informative reply.

[The Nth Degree]

Ah! That explains everything. Thank you very much.

 

I've yet to decide on a specific loco so when I do I'll update this thread or PM you (thanks for that). The model is a right state at the moment and I'm in the middle of taking it apart and putting it back together again - I bought it used with an awful paint job so had to strip it and desolder the body to reform it to the correct shape roof profile. I've put it on the back burner for a while but I'm thinking of getting it back on the workbench when I finish some wagons I'm working on.

 

It's progressed from this stage but this is it after stripping

[The Nth Degree]

I should point out that I now realise that I have a more recent body style, with plated over steps so I'll renovate this, sell it and get myself an earlier kit/RTR.

 

Here it is with new cabs

[andy stroud]

The access steps for the boiler filler on the roof were not plated over until about 1973/4 onwards so should be on the model you wish to do.

 

The only other external modification carried out was to the engine room access door in the centre on each side. This only applied to the twenty 'pilot scheme' locos D5500-19, and this was the provision of louvres in the lower half of the door, from around 1964-8, as carried by the rest of the class 'as built'.Also these locos carried the grey/white window surrounds around the drivers cab until the time when yellow panels arrived, although one or two survived with both, in the case of D5501 & D5515, but D5517 had them painted main body colour green without yellow panels during a Stratford works repaint in 1961. As always I would recommend using a photograph of the prototype as a guide when modelling a specific locomotive. There are literally hundreds of Brush Type 2 images on Flickr sites and if modelling specifically the era you mention, 1958-60, then there would be no yellow panels.

 

What about the rather distinctive covers over the windscreen washer squirters ?

[EHertsGER]

Chaps

 

I have a feeling I have just created a 'faux pas' that will require some frantic scraping and refittting, so...

 

 

...dammit!

 

Is there any chance a 'Skinhead made it into blue livery with the Mirrlees engines still installed? I think I know the answer ('No') as it would seem logical that, while EE'ing them someone should give them the once round with the blue paint and vice versa...

 

If, however, some (one?? Ideally a 'red circle') did make it that far, I am guessing sans serif 'D' prefixed number...some time in '68, perhaps? So, which one(s)?

 

Otherwise a nice newly painted blue roof is going to get a couple of big 'oles in it tomorrow. I know it isn't a big job, its the emotional side of it when considering five beautiful coats of Railmatch blue that went on so well in the warm weather last week...(chiz)

 

C'est la vie...suffice to say I am peering at a sea of green in a effort to avoid these kind of mistakes on the next one...5624 c Feb/71 (any tips, apart from the grass tufts in the buffer beam...)

 

Best,Marcus

[SRman]

I am open to correction here, but I think one or two of the original pilot batch D5500 to D5519 may have received blue livery while still fitted with Mirrlees engines, as theirs lasted the longest without the problems that manifested themselves on the later uprated versions. They certainly never got as far as receiving TOPS numbers as class 30, though.

[EHertsGER]

I am open to correction here, but I think one or two of the original pilot batch D5500 to D5519 may have received blue livery while still fitted with Mirrlees engines, as theirs lasted the longest without the problems that manifested themselves on the later uprated versions. They certainly never got as far as receiving TOPS numbers as class 30, though.

My original plan focused on 5510 but knowledge of the dates of the re-engining program (1964-69) occurring during the application of rail blue (1966 onwards) together with the coincidence of many such combined re-engine/repaints at Doncaster drew that locomotive into question. The late conversion of the pilot batch certainly does allow for an element of probability to be applied in surmising that 5510 may well still have had its Mirrlees engine in '68 despite the blue paintwork, but I am one of those obsessive types for whom probability is not quite enough...they were certainly all done by '69 which was a couple of years before my reference photographs in '71...and 5510 was gone by the end of '76 anyway...

[BrushVeteran]

As far as I can tell from my investigations no Mirrlees engined Class 31 ever made it into rail blue. The first rail blue 31 to appear was D5649 in October 1966, by which time over a third of the type had been re-engined and still retained green livery. I believe the policy at the time was that only overhauled locomotives would receive blue livery and that classified repairs (engine exchange) would receive touch-up and varnish in existing livery providing the paintwork was presentable. Even up until the end of 1968 there were still green locomotives appearing fresh out of Doncaster with new engines and as you say the pilot scheme locomotives D5500-19 were the last to be converted in 1968/69 and of this batch two (D5513 and D5518) retained green livery. As an aside when the pilot scheme locomotives were converted they all received extra grilles in the external bodyside doors in the body centre, apart from D5504 and D5519 which had already got these fitted from years back. A bit of a minefield but you need a photo of exactly the loco you are modelling and the timescale. Hope this helps but if you haven't already take a look at my Flickr site, type in  Brush Veteran.

[EHertsGER]

As far as I can tell from my investigations no Mirrlees engined Class 31 ever made it into rail blue. The first rail blue 31 to appear was D5649 in October 1966, by which time over a third of the type had been re-engined and still retained green livery. I believe the policy at the time was that only overhauled locomotives would receive blue livery and that classified repairs (engine exchange) would receive touch-up and varnish in existing livery providing the paintwork was presentable. Even up until the end of 1968 there were still green locomotives appearing fresh out of Doncaster with new engines and as you say the pilot scheme locomotives D5500-19 were the last to be converted in 1968/69 and of this batch two (D5513 and D5518) retained green livery. As an aside when the pilot scheme locomotives were converted they all received extra grilles in the external bodyside doors in the body centre, apart from D5504 and D5519 which had already got these fitted from years back. A bit of a minefield but you need a photo of exactly the loco you are modelling and the timescale. Hope this helps but if you haven't already take a look at my Flickr site, type in Brush Veteran.

Now that is very useful, as, sitting here, peering at my nice blue LIMA body I can only draw two conclusions. Let us first take a look at the LIMA body in rail blue (the principal criterion);

Skinhead - check

Blue - check

Mirrlees exhausts - check

Engine room door louvres - check.

Intended model of pilot scheme (and thus red circle) - check (so we can effectively disregard anything but 5500-5519)

Thus I conclude that the ONLY blue Brush Type 2s I can build from this are 5504 and 5519 as they might have been (for we still have no records of rebuild dates) - IF we retain the Mirrlees engine, these two being the ONLY two to have Mirrlees engine AND louvred doors (the rest getting the louvres on rebuild) . So when did they go blue...?? 68/69 probably, but with or without rebuild...?

Now, lets throw in a wild card here. The original LIMA body bore the number 31004 (clearly wrong for an unrebuilt engine) BUT 5504 became 31004. The other 'blue skinhead' in LIMA's range was numbered 31019 - so did LIMA know something we don't?

Me? Unless somebody can talk me out of it I am going to leave it as it is and number it as 5504 'some time in1968' until a photograph proves me wrong (which it will - I hope. EDIT: It has...5504 was certainly green in August 1968 (Stratford) but was seen at West Hampstead in blue in August '69, so that about seals the deal - time to fit a new engine!).

 

Right now I am looking at making sure the yellow ends are nicely done with crisp lines, so the jury can stay out a while longer. I have, however, conceived of a way to add the EE exhausts without much damage...

 

Best,

Marcus

[EHertsGER]

Now that is very useful, as, sitting here, peering at my nice blue LIMA body I can only draw two conclusions. Let us first take a look at the LIMA body in rail blue (the principal criterion);

Skinhead - check

Blue - check

Mirrlees exhausts - check

Engine room door louvres - check.

Intended model of pilot scheme (and thus red circle) - check (so we can effectively disregard anything but 5500-5519)

Thus I conclude that the ONLY blue Brush Type 2s I can build from this are 5504 and 5519 as they might have been (for we still have no records of rebuild dates) - IF we retain the Mirrlees engine, these two being the ONLY two to have Mirrlees engine AND louvred doors (the rest getting the louvres on rebuild) . So when did they go blue...?? 68/69 probably, but with or without rebuild...?

Now, lets throw in a wild card here. The original LIMA body bore the number 31004 (clearly wrong for an unrebuilt engine) BUT 5504 became 31004. The other 'blue skinhead' in LIMA's range was numbered 31019 - so did LIMA know something we don't?

Me? Unless somebody can talk me out of it I am going to leave it as it is and number it as 5504 'some time in1968' until a photograph proves me wrong (which it will - I hope. EDIT: It has...5504 was certainly green in August 1968 (Stratford) but was seen at West Hampstead in blue in August '69, so that about seals the deal - time to fit a new engine!).

Right now I am looking at making sure the yellow ends are nicely done with crisp lines, so the jury can stay out a while longer. I have, however, conceived of a way to add the EE exhausts without much damage...

Best,

Marcus

There, that's better...

 

 

I feel I can go back to 5510 with a clear conscience now!

 

Best,

Marcus

[EHertsGER]

All

 

Hopefully this will help establish which one was 'done' (i.e. Modified from 30 to 31):

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/classes.php?type=D&subtype=Type2

 

Best,

Marcus