Hornby P2

[Steffi_C]

I don't want Hornby to go under but it's not been the fault of the modeller, collector or the family and kids train set sector - purely and simply Hornby have got themselves into this mess. They need desirable product in numbers to sell, and fast, to get out of it.

 

I couldn't agree more.  Since Hornby let Tony Wright have his review sample of the P2, they have (for instance) allocated sufficient production slots to make the Silver Jubilee train pack, containing a re-engineered Railroad A4 (and a pretty good one) that was intended as a concession only item.  It didn't sell, and they're not even flying off the shelves at half price.

 

Hornby have had a fully sold out order book for the main range P2 for well over a year now.  If they make them, they'll sell, it's as simple as that.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Steffi_C

[Hroth]

Hornby have had a fully sold out order book for the main range P2 for well over a year now.  If they make them, they'll sell, it's as simple as that.

The staged introduction of the various P2s could be down to the process of ramping up the new factories and workforce.  The Railroad version is the simplest one to produce in terms of decoration and fiddly bits and it MAY be that R3171 has been a bit of a production guinea pig to ensure that the workforce is getting things right.  Yes, we saw the pre-production P2 nearly a year ago now, but  I feel that "problems" in getting to a high enough standard meant that other models (Bagnall, Silver Jubilee) were brought forward to occupy the production slots that were allocated for P2 production that would have otherwise been left vacant.

 

If thats the way these things work!  :-)

[Steffi_C]

The staged introduction of the various P2s could be down to the process of ramping up the new factories and workforce.  The Railroad version is the simplest one to produce in terms of decoration and fiddly bits and it MAY be that R3171 has been a bit of a production guinea pig to ensure that the workforce is getting things right.  Yes, we saw the pre-production P2 nearly a year ago now, but  I feel that "problems" in getting to a high enough standard meant that other models (Bagnall, Silver Jubilee) were brought forward to occupy the production slots that were allocated for P2 production that would have otherwise been left vacant.

 

If thats the way these things work!  :-)

 

If the delay is down to Hornby getting the model right that's all well and good.  It's to be hoped that they've also learnt something from the design defects with the DoG.

[gr.king]

Now wouldn't it be good if they would simply SAY, fully and truthfully, what is going on, rather than keeping quiet, or issuing bland meaningless "management-speak" generalisations, or allowing information/rumour to trickle out only by unofficial means. The constant change of expected delivery dates without full explanation inevitably leads to lack of confidence.

 

"Protecting" lenders, shareholders and customers from unsatisfactory news only leads to them seeking information from other sources and this can (often) include suggestions that things are even worse than they really are. Concealing the truth in business can in any case be regarded as fraud.....

[EdChap]

Perhaps the initial batch referred to is a small amount air-freighted to England, with the rest following by ship. I seem to recall that Bachmann has does this many times before big shows to give retailers some stock to sell and I do not remember anybody complaining so vocally about that strategy then.

[EdChap]

I thought I had read that Hornby are now using several different factories in China and that might be why the Bagnall Shunter came out first as that particular factory was able to start manufacturing for Hornby sooner.

[Legend]

The disturbing thing is it's probably outside Hornbys control but a factor of manufacturing capacity. That's why they are getting this model in dribs and drabs. I feel sure if they could, they would get the lot in one go, relieving cash flow pressures and declaring the sale

Edited August 17, 2014 by Legend

[andyman7]

Gordon Bennett, this thread sounds like a chat room discussing the X Files or Area 51 rather than a delayed toy train. Anyhow, I will magnanimously stand back from purchasing any of the initial delivery should the opportunity arise and am quite happy to wait for later batches as with Duke of Gloucester....

[Nelson Jackson]

I know what Hornby's plans are, all these delivery dates are fake (they are just to keep us interested in the model), Hornby are actually going to release the P2 model at the same time as the real new build one is complete all makes sense now

 

So when's that? 2024?

[toboldlygo]

Gordon Bennett, this thread sounds like a chat room discussing the X Files or Area 51 rather than a delayed toy train. Anyhow, I will magnanimously stand back from purchasing any of the initial delivery should the opportunity arise and am quite happy to wait for later batches as with Duke of Gloucester....

 

Definitely a few conspiracy theorists on here

[Hroth]

Gordon Bennett, this thread sounds like a chat room discussing the X Files or Area 51 rather than a delayed toy train. Anyhow, I will magnanimously stand back from purchasing any of the initial delivery should the opportunity arise and am quite happy to wait for later batches as with Duke of Gloucester....

Searching the warehouse for the mythical P2, torches piercing the swirling haze......

 

Railway modellers are noted for having vivid imaginations, so its not surprising that we're occupying ourselves making up even more convoluted stories based on supposition and misinformation whilst waiting for the train to arrive!  And when mine does arrive, its going to be towing Gresley coaches through a layout thronged with GWR and LMS locos and rolling stock.  Not to mention the dirty "death of steam" stuff and diesels with liveries from Green with no warning panels to full yellow noses and BR Blue.  Its a long story......

 

Ahem.

 

Ok officer, I'll come quietly......

[Paul Cram]

I understand they are now tied up at Tilbury as part of a crime scene.

[bluebottle]

Remarks by various medics suggest that it says somewhere in my notes: "Worries about his life expectancy". I'd better not let it slip that this is bound up with P2 No. 2007 taking to the rails, with a decent Hornby model to act as a palliative at some point.

[melmerby]

I thought I had read that Hornby are now using several different factories in China and that might be why the Bagnall Shunter came out first as that particular factory was able to start manufacturing for Hornby sooner.

No that's wrong.

One factory is making the LH driving wheels and the tender body, another the RH ones and the engine chassis a third the tender chassis and loco body!

Unfortunately they are all working to different timescales!

That accounts for the different release dates we keep getting

 

Keith

[Bernard Lamb]

No that's wrong.

One factory is making the LH driving wheels and the tender body, another the RH ones and the engine chassis a third the tender chassis and loco body!

Unfortunately they are all working to different timescales!

That accounts for the different release dates we keep getting

 

Keith

Oh dear.

Now you have let the cat out of the bag.

It was supposed to be a trade secret that Hornby were going to release it as a part work kit.

Bernard

[Andy Hayter]

Now wouldn't it be good if they would simply SAY, fully and truthfully, what is going on, rather than keeping quiet, or issuing bland meaningless "management-speak" generalisations, or allowing information/rumour to trickle out only by unofficial means. The constant change of expected delivery dates without full explanation inevitably leads to lack of confidence.

 

"Protecting" lenders, shareholders and customers from unsatisfactory news only leads to them seeking information from other sources and this can (often) include suggestions that things are even worse than they really are. Concealing the truth in business can in any case be regarded as fraud.....

 

 

Oh dear I see the frustration spilling over.

 

What do you want Hornby to say? and what would you expect the result would be?

 

Let's say (and this is purely hypothetical) that Hornby were to announce at your behest, that there are problems getting the chassis to the specification that they want to deliver to you.

 

So now you know.  And what?  Is that knowledge going to improve the delivery date?  Can you offer a solution to the problem - like you  building 3000 chassis cheaper and faster than the Chinese?

My guess is that you will just want to know more.  What exactly is wrong with the chassis?  It won't go round radius 1 curves.  Why not? The tolerance seems to be to wrong on the free play on the nth axle. Why?........... and so it goes on.  And you know what?  The model is still not going to get delivered one day quicker.

 

The problem may well be commercially sensitive and making public exactly what the issue is could be damaging for both the producer and for Hornby.  Taking my hypothetical example, telling the world that there is a problem with the chassis, could lead to the manufacturer losing business with other companies (the trade will know which company this is, even if we do not) and Hornby would lose trust with its other suppliers due to its readiness to point the finger in public, resulting in it being more difficult to secure future production from those companies - and so potentially worsening the supply situation. 

 

 

As for suggesting that Hornby might be committing fraud, well that is just silly.

They are required to advise the market of issues that might materially affect the performance of the company. 

They have already announced that there are supply issues from the Far East and that they are in the process of addressing them.  That the problems clearly still persist with one model from one supplier - albeit that we all hope this will be a landmark model for the 2010s - does not mean that the whole Hornby empire is about to crumble.  It does not warrant an announcement to the market.

 

So I suggest you take a deep breath, count to ten and accept that the models are not going to arrive as quickly as any of us - Hornby included - want.  Fretting, probing, threatening and the like will not improve the delivery situation.

[jjb1970]

Very well said. I'm as frustrated as anybody by the poor delivery of Hornby product in recent times and the somewhat troubled times they're going through but there isn't much we can do about it and I do not see anything sinister in the delay of the P2. I think it is also worth taking a step back, this is a hobby, hopefully it is fun, maybe it is just me but its not like I'm struggling to spend money on my various interests and the travails of Hornby are not the end of the world. I hope that Hornby are getting things back under control and that things will improve, certainly some of the communications coming from them lately point to some improvement. That they've had a torrid time over the last few years is undeniable, and when companies are in such a mess the turn around is rarely a quick fix and is more of a long haul back, or in other words there was never going to be a magic wand they could wave to just make all their problems go away. And it isn't just Hornby, the mainland European manufacturers have gone through a dreadful few years with various bankruptcies and financial issues, I don't see Roco customers getting obsessive about the roller coaster ride of that company over quite a good number of years. On the wider question, if Hornby ever were to go under it certainly wouldn't be the end of the UK hobby and both life and the hobby would go on but the UK hobby would most definitely feel the loss and it'd be a huge blow. 

[rembrow]

This thread has already been locked recently, due to postings drifting into questions about Hornby's changing delivery timetable and suggestions around why that might be, so we need to be careful not to drift into that area again. Hornby are unlikely to provide detail about what has caused the delay, as that is not their way, whether we like it or not. They are not the only manufacturer who operates in that way, last year Bachmann suddenly dropped the 6 Stanier Porthole coaches from their delivery schedule, a month before the date they had advertised, with no explanation to retailers or end buyers and it has been a further year for them to appear. The model companies do not like having to send out bad news, so they tend to avoid it, leaving everyone in the dark.

I think to suggest that the delay is linked to any financial or impropriety based cause is totally unreasonable and without any evidence to support those arguments. If you look at Hornby's recent work on new models, you will see that they have got 5 new models from the 2014 catalogue to artwork stage (K1, D16, Drummond 700, 2 HAL and Crosti 9F), that means that the most expensive part of those models, the new tooling, has been completed. That indicates to me financial viability and a desire to get new products to the marketplace.

We don't know what has caused the delay to the P2 and we probably won't find out, so wouldn't it be better to accept it and avoid keep trying to undermine Hornby. Remember they are a PLC and such suggestions can cause concern to the share price.

[Ian Hargrave]

I read these last three postings much heartened that there is a return to sweet reason .Thank you,gentlemen.I think it was Nicholas Montserrat that wrote a novel entitled "The Tribe That Lost Its Head". By posting inflammatory remarks,we stand accused of devaluing the things we cherish and tarnishing the reputation of this forum

We sometimes do not think clearly of the consequences of what we post when we press buttons....easy,isn't it? Here we sit safely behind the security of our keyboard....untouchable and inviolate.I have this opinion and I can say exactly what I please..Publish and be damned,as the saying goes.

Consider the case a while ago of the late Lord McAlpine,the damage done to him and his reputation by the publication of scurrilous and untrue material on social media and the consequences of that.

Carry on making accusations which won't stand up to legal scrutiny will get us all into trouble.

This thread has been locked once. It maybe time to take a breath,step back and revisit that action.

 

Posted,ironically,from a hot Parc National Des Volcans ( an area of extinct volcanoes) La Garrotxa.,Catalunya.

[modelpara]

I would be more inclined to believe that the delay is due to quality control issues rather than financial, either way I have one ordered and seriously tempted to order a second for renumbering (but finances may scupper that!)

[Dunsignalling]

Hornby have entered into arrangements with a number of factories in order to escape the hazards of having all their eggs in one basket.

 

It is quite possible that (1) the [sort-of] Bagnall, the [alleged] LNER trainset and the P2 are all being made in different ones and (2) some factories may be more "up and running" with their Hornby output than others. 

 

John

[Steffi_C]

At the risk of further accusations of "Hornby bashing", I'll just say that Hattons are now predicting the arrival of the main range P2 for 26th September 2014 according to this morning's welcome missive.

 

As someone old enough to have seen 2001 before she acquired her Bugatti nose (and thus now contemplating my own mortality) it's good to know that it may actually arrive before I depart.

[modelpara]

At the risk of further accusations of "Hornby bashing", I'll just say that Hattons are now predicting the arrival of the main range P2 for 26th September 2014 according to this morning's welcome missive.

 

As someone old enough to have seen 2001 before she acquired her Bugatti nose (and thus now contemplating my own mortality) it's good to know that it may actually arrive before I depart.

 

Ive not received any email but dates I have found on their website is

 

TTS version

Due into stock on or after Tuesday 16th September 2014

 

Railroad Version

Due into stock on or after Friday 5th September 2014

 

Still tempted to buy a second one.....

 

EDIT: Ordered railroad version, will rename it to one of the others in the class!

Edited August 23, 2014 by modelpara

[melmerby]

Ive not received any email but dates I have found on their website is

 

TTS version

Due into stock on or after Tuesday 16th September 2014

 

Railroad Version

Due into stock on or after Friday 5th September 2014

 

Still tempted to buy a second one.....

 

EDIT: Ordered railroad version, will rename it to one of the others in the class!

Model Railways Direct showing 2/10/2014 for R3207 (Sold out again!) and R3246TTS

 

Keith

[coachmann]

It is predictable that the Railroad version would be first to hit the market. When folk are champing at the bit they'll buy anything, molded handrails or not. The motor industry is like that. I bought one of the first Ford Sierra's when they came out under 'Y' reg. It was was pretty basic, but it had the wow factor wherever we went because of its jelly mould shape. If the 'Cock' runs as smoothly as the 'Duck', it will be a good-'un once the modellers wand has passed over it....