Hornby P2

[AshleyH]

For anyone still waiting on a pre-order from Hattons of the R3207 version, they are now showing as expected on Friday 26th September. So hopefully only another week or so!

[Lochnagar]

I am delighted to report that Alex swiftly inserted insulation where NONE existed previously....either a design or assembly inadequacy....yes,the pickups as we knew the problem would be...and R 3207 now runs sweetly at the head of a rake of 8 Gresleys. Thank you for your help.It is appreciated.

Glad it's ok now Ian. Identical issue as the DoG, the two brass pickups on the chassis and chassis keeper plate make contact with the metal chassis and cause a dead short. No insulation at all, but simply fixed by inserting some small strips of electrical tape to the chassis block around the area of contact. Theres detailed pics of what I did on the DoG thread, but heres the main ones again below. I have to say I'm surprised Hornby haven't sorted this after the DoG feedback and having so many returns due to shorting. It's a failure timebomb on all these models in my opinion, especially to those who don't know what's wrong and are left in the dark. Anyway, hope this helps folks who've got a 'dud'. And I'm more than happy to do it for anyone that doesn't fancy taking it to bits. 

 

Alex

 

Before insulation;

 

After; slightly more tape required on the P2 though.

[Ian Hargrave]

And for those of you needing one,according to the Kernow website,they are availableto purchase  there ,so their newsletter just received informs us.

[LocomotionatShildon]

Locomotionmodels have a few more on the website too.

[Nelson Jackson]

The first word that came out of my mouth was "WOW"

 

This truley is an amazing model, the livery is beautifully applied, well done Hornby what's next hush hush?

[Mike70]

For anyone still waiting on a pre-order from Hattons of the R3207 version, they are now showing as expected on Friday 26th September. So hopefully only another week or so!

I think that is the date they have been quoting (on their website) for some time now.

[WD0-6-0]

According to Hornby the TTS DoG is now in so the P2 can't be far behind.

Rhys

[Nelson Jackson]

Forgot to mention, the one above is a Hattons model, so orders should be filling now, be patient folks it will arrive

[LocomotionatShildon]

According to Hornby the TTS DoG is now in so the P2 can't be far behind.

Rhys

More arrived at locomotion today as well as d of g tts.

[melmerby]

Anybody fitted a DCC decoder into a P2?

 

Mine runs superbly on DC but now is time for a decoder and there doesn't seem to be much room.

Dispensing with the tender wiring has eliminated the obvious location!

 

Keith

 

PS the TTS version is shown with tender wiring, leaving it out on the other versions is IMHO a mistake.

[Mike70]

Anybody fitted a DCC decoder into a P2?

 

Mine runs superbly on DC but now is time for a decoder and there doesn't seem to be much room.

Dispensing with the tender wiring has eliminated the obvious location!

 

Keith

 

PS the TTS version is shown with tender wiring, leaving it out on the other versions is IMHO a mistake.

I thought the main range version had tender pick ups?

[Ian Hargrave]

I thought the main range version had tender pick ups?

No,sorry,it doesn't.

[Mike70]

Hhhmmm.... Food for thought.

[melmerby]

Managed to get a Lenz decoder in.

There is actually more room than appears as the chassis block is well clear of the boiler top so it will sit on top of the socket & plug (with insulation obviously)

 

Keith

 

Definitely no tender wiring on R3207 but the location for the connecting socket is there.

As the TTS version has the decoder in the tender and connecting wiring it seems strange and extreme penny pinching to leave it out on the R3207.

This will make retro fitting sound more of a chore than it need be

Edited September 19, 2014 by melmerby

[melmerby]

Does anybody replace those awful Cartazzi truck wheels on large Hornby locos?

It wouldn't be so bad if they touched the rails but the ones on my P2 are flying a scale 3" above the track!

 

Keith

 

(This is my first recent Hornby loco with a trailing truck)

Edited September 19, 2014 by melmerby

[31A]

Surely it's not so much a case of 'wiring' as such (I presume the wiring on the TTS version is for the sound / DCC equipment); more that current collection from the tender wheels would have been a worthwhile enhancement on the main range version, which would have required wipers on the tender wheels as well as wiring?  Having said that, collection from eight drivers ought to suffice and I was pleased to note that all eight did indeed collect current when tested, whereas often wipers need to be tweaked before they will work reliably.

[Ian Hargrave]

Surely it's not so much a case of 'wiring' as such (I presume the wiring on the TTS version is for the sound / DCC equipment); more that current collection from the tender wheels would have been a worthwhile enhancement on the main range version, which would have required wipers on the tender wheels as well as wiring?  Having said that, collection from eight drivers ought to suffice and I was pleased to note that all eight did indeed collect current when tested, whereas often wipers need to be tweaked before they will work reliably.

Indeed,so am I pleased for you......mine did not,until insulating tape was applied to the appropriate area.It is the same set up as on the D o G,R3191 and the performance of that now is excellent,as is R3207 after initial failure.Provided the assembly is correct ( and it sometimes is not ) no one should notice any appreciable difference from the usual Hornby wired-through tender pick up system.

If there are problems with hesitant performance,you may have to look elsewhere for the solution,not just the wipers

 

See post 1630 above.

[JSpencer]

It should be noted that at this time we do not know whether or not the TTS version has tender pick ups or not. We only know that all the DCC sound stuff is installed there.

 

Looking forwards to my fireman's breakfast (I wonder if someone recorded that from a real one or just copied sounds from their own kitchen).

[sub39h]

Still waiting on mine from Model Railways Direct. I called them yesterday and they said they aren't expecting theirs 'til November and I know i'nd fairly high up on the preorder list but if Ian Allen only got 1 of the 6 they ordered I wonder if I'll get mine :-(

[31A]

Indeed,so am I pleased for you......mine did not,until insulating tape was applied to the appropriate area.It is the same set up as on the D o G,R3191 and the performance of that now is excellent,as is R3207 after initial failure.Provided the assembly is correct ( and it sometimes is not ) no one should notice any appreciable difference from the usual Hornby wired-through tender pick up system.

If there are problems with hesitant performance,you may have to look elsewhere for the solution,not just the wipers

 

See post 1630 above.

Thanks Ian, had noted that post for future reference (hopefully not necessary!).  Slightly surprising they've gone back to this method of electrical circuitry, other recent models (e.g. the L1) having had the pick ups hard wired.  Having recently had a Black 5 to bits, I found I then needed 6 hands to get it back together again with the electrical contacts making - although admittedly made more complicated in that instance by the components for the sprung axle!  Glad to read that the problem with yours was resolved, though!

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks Ian, had noted that post for future reference (hopefully not necessary!).  Slightly surprising they've gone back to this method of electrical circuitry, other recent models (e.g. the L1) having had the pick ups hard wired.  Having recently had a Black 5 to bits, I found I then needed 6 hands to get it back together again with the electrical contacts making - although admittedly made more complicated in that instance by the components for the sprung axle!  Glad to read that the problem with yours was resolved, though!

Indeed it was in both cases,fortunately.I can't but,as they say,I know a man who does.Alex used his skills and knowledge to effect the right sort of performance.It is a cost cutting exercise on Hornby's part.Fine if it's correctly assembled,of course but often it is not.Way back in January,when I first received R 3191 from Hattons,most of their batch exhibited identical problems and were 'returns'.

Should you have the courage to take R 3207 apart you don't need me to tell you to be very careful.Good luck and happily running with yours.She really is a head turner,whatever the little niggles might be.

[Ian Hargrave]

Still waiting on mine from Model Railways Direct. I called them yesterday and they said they aren't expecting theirs 'til November and I know i'nd fairly high up on the preorder list but if Ian Allen only got 1 of the 6 they ordered I wonder if I'll get mine :-(

Locomotion Models have them now....get in touch with Sandra....don't wait around.

[gr.king]

As an alternative to many renditions of "I have / haven't got mine yet" ........

 

I response to a suggestion that my views might be interesting, here are some remarks on the Hornby model, partly recycled from personal messages already exchanged with one or two others. If therefore the "train of thought" jumps around all over the place, please excuse the lack of organisation.

The chassis dismantles in a lovely straightforward way. No daft pick-up plate-on-a-tight-wire that's too short to allow the plate to be moved aside. None of the screws in mine had been factory tightened to breaking point in tight or crossed threads either, and the screw heads were all in good order. Same screws throughout by the look of it too. Somebody in the design and production team has grown a brain! Nice round-topped axle ways and 3mm axles by the look of it (EM rapid conversionist Pete Hill confirms that) and no working valve gear to get all knotted up (especially if the gauge is widened) - save for the return cranks and crossheads which have miles more clearance than you'd ever want for running around realistic curves in OO at any rate.

This may be repetition, but......There's nominally only the screw accessed through the hole in the pony truck that has to be released to take the body off. The front of the chassis should then drop slightly and be drawn forward a little to release the rear mounting lug. Supposedly everything will then be free to descend. Believe me, IT WON'T. The shape of the chassis and body present numerous opportunities for things to snag as the two are shuffled apart. On top of that, the mould feeds inside the body are broken off roughly rather than trimmed off to a neat finish, so these can catch on edges on the chassis. THE BIG ONE TO WATCH OUT FOR IS THE PROBLEM OF THE CONTACT TAGS ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE MOTOR. THESE WILL READILY HOOK THEMSELVES ONTO EITHER THE INSIDE LOWER EDGE OF THE BOILER MOULDING, OR INTO THE GAP BETWEEN THE BOILER AND RUNNING PLATE. IF YOU APPLY BRUTE FORCE YOU MAY SNAP THEM OFF RATHER THAN MERELY BEND THEM. I'd ADVISE TAKING CARE TO SPLAY THE BODY MOULDING APART BY MEANS OF A SLIM LEVER BETWEEN THE MOTOR AND THE BODY SLOT WHILE YOU SLIDE THE CHASSIS OUT (OR BACK IN). I've used care to bend my upper motor tag upwards rather than downwards, and have curved it slightly over the top of the motor so that it cannot "hook" as the chassis comes out of the body and it also has a "leading edge" to guide it into the boiler slot as the chassis goes back in.

On some of the Railroad models I've seen the fitting of the chimney left something to be desired, not pushed home fully into the smokebox top and sitting higher at its front rim than the rear, well above loading gauge. I altered this on one Railroad loco. I had been tempted merely to file it down because it seemed so firmly stuck in the wrong position, but on digging out the body plastic that sits between the two locating tabs under the base of the chimney I WAS able to push the chimney out of its socket without damage and then re-fit it properly.

Running seemed good or very good straight out of the box. My later delivered main range loco was intitially perhaps slightly notchy at lowest speeds but nothing suggested tight spots. It improved noticeably after only a little running.

There's been plenty of comment about moulded handrails on the cab and tender. They are VERY well done, but look a lot more convincingly "real" on the main range loco when painted to represent polished handrails which were of course only evident if a "special finish" was applied to a loco for publicity purposes. 2001 was like that when new, so that's fine, but they don't look so good in green on the Railroad loco. There's possibly something odd about the finish chosen for the main range loco, for having gone for the "polished" handrails for understandable reasons, Hornby have created a questionable combination by fitting wheels with lined rims. The lining is excellent on the rims and the bosses (as it is on all other parts of the loco) but photos of 2001 in its brand new swanky ex-works finish show the wheel rims in burnished steel, unlined. The Railroad loco has bright wheel rims (with green handrails?!?!) but no lining on the bosses. Never mind, that may work to my advantage in the long run as I have it in mind to turn a Railroad loco (or two) into other class members that always had painted wheel rims. A wheel swap between locos may thus mean that I'll only need to think about lining the bosses on one set of wheels at any rate.

The notorious Hornby double-pivot pony truck design is present, but it seems to behave well enough on these locos on my track (copperclad pointwork to fairly finescale standards "on scene" and Peco code 75 medium radius in the hidden yard). What happens on Peco or other code 100 girder-rail points with sudden tight curvature and broad crossing gaps is for others to discover....

Having said that the lining is of a lovely standard of fineness and regularity on the main range model (equally good where present on the Railroad loco too), I reckon the panel of lining on the rear of the tender (only present on the main range loco) sits too high up. I think it should be in register with the lining panels on the sides. I don't know if this is simply the best that can by done by the printing machines given the positions of the lamp irons and steps on the rear of the tender. It isn't THAT obvious, unless you are a pedant as several of us rightly are.

Apart from the much more extensive decoration I am yet to find many differences between the main and Railroad versions of the model. Curiously, the cab doors are fitted to the Railroad model but left for the owner to fit on the posh version. Same goes for the brake rigging. Maybe the cab doors are left off in order to facilitate detailing of the cab interior on the posh loco. If you want to fit a fallplate, seats, crew and paint the details on the backhead I suppose it may be handy to have no cab doors to work around. As Hornby were obviously trimming cost on these models I think they have sensibly left all backheads in plain black rather than spend money on paintwork in a hidden area, only to claw it back by omitting something more visible. You don't get tender pick-ups or sprung buffers on either version (not even metal buffer heads, although the plastic ones, some of which have slightly ragged edges, are separate from the sockets and could fairly easily be replaced). The only mechanical or electrical difference I can find so far between the two versions of the model is the mode of attachment of the loco drawbar to the tender. The main range version has the two-position drawbar screwed to both units, which may not be convenient especially as there's no electrical connection to demand such union. The Railroad version has the standard shouldered screw on the loco end replaced by one that is entirely parallel-sided (yet still with a slotted end) and this simply forms a pin that hooks into either of the two eyes in the loco drawbar. For once, the short drawbar setting, "for display only on some locos) is actually of some practical use, at least on my 3 foot ruling track radii.

 

Maybe the all black, moulded plastic Lentz valve gear on both versions of the model isn't quite convincing in appearance as some of it probably ought to look like burnished steel. Robustness will have to be tested by time. A bit of clever painting might aid the appearance. I'm not sure how many will want to alter the moulded plastic reversing shaft above the running plate. It does tend to be a bit wonky whereas the real thing of course would be of straight steel rod or tube with suitable joints.

The very "clean" and simple layout of the chassis, with large detachable weight and clip-fit cylinder stretcher has already convinced me that conversion to Walschaerts valve gear is likely to be highly viable. The moulded plastic wheel bosses and spokes (which some of you might not trust for strength and durability) insulate the wheel rims from mutually the crankpins and from the axles. Also, both motor brushes are insulated so that in standard form the chassis block is electrically neutral. The coupling rods (when not mangled by heavy handling) appear to clear the wheel rims even when full opposite sideplay is inflicted on adjacent wheelsets. This all means that I won't have to worry about the consequences of carrying valve gear for both sides of the loco on a common metal stretcher screwed or clamped in place. If I paint the backs of the coupling rods with some hard lacquer "just in case" the whole thing ought to be electrically pretty much bomb-proof! We'll see anyway.

 

Value for money? Well, okay, you get moulded-on plastic fittings in a number of places where we've recently been much more accustomed to separate fittings, often in metal. The cab/tender handrails for instance, the (static in this case, more or less correctly) valve gear, the smokebox door handles (and the hinge which isn't upright as it really would be) and even the whistle, but....  I am utterly convinced that in main-range guise it is ten times the model and at only a third of the price compared to the stinking pile of poo (allegedly a showcase quality limited edition P2) that I refused to pay for during my contentious dealings eleven years ago with gangsters in Lincoln who were advertising in the model press at the time. The same dodgy firm later re-appeared on the internet under another name, but they do now seem to have crawled back under their rock. A really good quality commission built model of 2001 could easily cost the top side of £1000, and a used one at auction possibly half of that, so I'd say the Hornby model is storming good value!

Excuse also any high-speed typing blunders in the above......

Edited September 20, 2014 by gr.king

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Does anybody replace those awful Cartazzi truck wheels on large Hornby locos?

It wouldn't be so bad if they touched the rails but the ones on my P2 are flying a scale 3" above the track!...

Flangeless, they have to be above railhead, because if not they will cheerfully derail the loco on any curve transition to straight where the track is not perfectly level. The moment the tyre is off the rail as happens on curves, if it drops below railhead height as the loco straightens up it binds on the railside.

 

All my Hornby A3, A4 and Britannias have the supplied flanged wheelset installed. This has required quite a lot of hacking away material inside the mounting to allow two things: first the wheelset treads to rest on the rail, and secondly to  supply enough side to side movement for curves. Getting these locos to manage the 30" minimum I require is easy enough. I don't have a P2 so don't know if the Cartazzi frames representation is much as the moulding used on A3 and A4: cutting through the rear bar of the moulding allows the frames to flex outwards slightly. Or if it is a casting as on the Britannia, you may have to cut clearance for the flanges to avoid an instant short circuit: the wheelsets wouldn't even go in on my examples due to the flanges fouling the rear inside of the casting.

[31A]

 

As an alternative to many renditions of "I have / haven't got mine yet" ........

 

I response to a suggestion that my views might be interesting, here are some remarks on the Hornby model, partly recycled from personal messages already exchanged with one or two others. If therefore the "train of thought" jumps around all over the place, please excuse the lack of organisation.

 

The chassis dismantles in a lovely straightforward way. No daft pick-up plate-on-a-tight-wire that's too short to allow the plate to be moved aside. None of the screws in mine had been factory tightened to breaking point in tight or crossed threads either, and the screw heads were all in good order. Same screws throughout by the look of it too. Somebody in the design and production team has grown a brain! Nice round-topped axle ways and 3mm axles by the look of it (EM rapid conversionist Pete Hill confirms that) and no working valve gear to get all knotted up (especially if the gauge is widened) - save for the return cranks and crossheads which have miles more clearance than you'd ever want for running around realistic curves in OO at any rate.

 

This may be repetition, but......There's nominally only the screw accessed through the hole in the pony truck that has to be released to take the body off. The front of the chassis should then drop slightly and be drawn forward a little to release the rear mounting lug. Supposedly everything will then be free to descend. Believe me, IT WON'T. The shape of the chassis and body present numerous opportunities for things to snag as the two are shuffled apart. On top of that, the mould feeds inside the body are broken off roughly rather than trimmed off to a neat finish, so these can catch on edges on the chassis. THE BIG ONE TO WATCH OUT FOR IS THE PROBLEM OF THE CONTACT TAGS ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE MOTOR. THESE WILL READILY HOOK THEMSELVES ONTO EITHER THE INSIDE LOWER EDGE OF THE BOILER MOULDING, OR INTO THE GAP BETWEEN THE BOILER AND RUNNING PLATE. IF YOU APPLY BRUTE FORCE YOU MAY SNAP THEM OFF RATHER THAN MERELY BEND THEM. I'd ADVISE TAKING CARE TO SPLAY THE BODY MOULDING APART BY MEANS OF A SLIM LEVER BETWEEN THE MOTOR AND THE BODY SLOT WHILE YOU SLIDE THE CHASSIS OUT (OR BACK IN). I've used care to bend my upper motor tag upwards rather than downwards, and have curved it slightly over the top of the motor so that it cannot "hook" as the chassis comes out of the body and it also has a "leading edge" to guide it into the boiler slot as the chassis goes back in.

 

On some of the Railroad models I've seen the fitting of the chimney left something to be desired, not pushed home fully into the smokebox top and sitting higher at its front rim than the rear, well above loading gauge. I altered this on one Railroad loco. I had been tempted merely to file it down because it seemed so firmly stuck in the wrong position, but on digging out the body plastic that sits between the two locating tabs under the base of the chimney I WAS able to push the chimney out of its socket without damage and then re-fit it properly.

 

Running seemed good or very good straight out of the box. My later delivered main range loco was intitially perhaps slightly notchy at lowest speeds but nothing suggested tight spots. It improved noticeably after only a little running.

 

There's been plenty of comment about moulded handrails on the cab and tender. They are VERY well done, but look a lot more convincingly "real" on the main range loco when painted to represent polished handrails which were of course only evident if a "special finish" was applied to a loco for publicity purposes. 2001 was like that when new, so that's fine, but they don't look so good in green on the Railroad loco. There's possibly something odd about the finish chosen for the main range loco, for having gone for the "polished" handrails for understandable reasons, Hornby have created a questionable combination by fitting wheels with lined rims. The lining is excellent on the rims and the bosses (as it is on all other parts of the loco) but photos of 2001 in its brand new swanky ex-works finish show the wheel rims in burnished steel, unlined. The Railroad loco has bright wheel rims (with green handrails?!?!) but no lining on the bosses. Never mind, that may work to my advantage in the long run as I have it in mind to turn a Railroad loco (or two) into other class members that always had painted wheel rims. A wheel swap between locos may thus mean that I'll only need to think about lining the bosses on one set of wheels at any rate.

 

The notorious Hornby double-pivot pony truck design is present, but it seems to behave well enough on these locos on my track (copperclad pointwork to fairly finescale standards "on scene" and Peco code 75 medium radius in the hidden yard). What happens on Peco or other code 100 girder-rail points with sudden tight curvature and broad crossing gaps is for others to discover....

 

Having said that the lining is of a lovely standard of fineness and regularity on the main range model (equally good where present on the Railroad loco too), I reckon the panel of lining on the rear of the tender (only present on the main range loco) sits too high up. I think it should be in register with the lining panels on the sides. I don't know if this is simply the best that can by done by the printing machines given the positions of the lamp irons and steps on the rear of the tender. It isn't THAT obvious, unless you are a pedant as several of us rightly are.

 

Apart from the much more extensive decoration I am yet to find many differences between the main and Railroad versions of the model. Curiously, the cab doors are fitted to the Railroad model but left for the owner to fit on the posh version. Same goes for the brake rigging. Maybe the cab doors are left off in order to facilitate detailing of the cab interior on the posh loco. If you want to fit a fallplate, seats, crew and paint the details on the backhead I suppose it may be handy to have no cab doors to work around. As Hornby were obviously trimming cost on these models I think they have sensibly left all backheads in plain black rather than spend money on paintwork in a hidden area, only to claw it back by omitting something more visible. You don't get tender pick-ups or sprung buffers on either version (not even metal buffer heads, although the plastic ones, some of which have slightly ragged edges, are separate from the sockets and could fairly easily be replaced). The only mechanical or electrical difference I can find so far between the two versions of the model is the mode of attachment of the loco drawbar to the tender. The main range version has the two-position drawbar screwed to both units, which may not be convenient especially as there's no electrical connection to demand such union. The Railroad version has the standard shouldered screw on the tender replaced by one that is entirely parallel-sided (yet still with a slotted end) and this simply forms a pin that hooks into either of the two eyes in the loco drawbar. For once, the short drawbar setting, "for display only on some locos) is actually of some practical use, at least on my 3 foot ruling track radii.

 

Maybe the all black, moulded plastic Lentz valve gear on both versions of the model isn't quite convincing in appearance as some of it probably ought to look like burnished steel. Robustness will have to be tested by time. A bit of clever painting might aid the appearance. I'm not sure how many will want to alter the moulded plastic reversing shaft above the running plate. It does tend to be a bit wonky whereas the real thing of course would be of straight steel rod or tube with suitable joints.

The very "clean" and simple layout of the chassis, with large detachable weight and clip-fit cylinder stretcher has already convinced me that conversion to Walschaerts valve gear is likely to be highly viable. The moulded plastic wheel bosses and spokes (which some of you might not trust for strength and durability) insulate the wheel rims from mutually the crankpins and from the axles. Also, both motor brushes are insulated so that in standard form the chassis block is electrically neutral. The coupling rods (when not mangled by heavy handling) appear to clear the wheel rims even when full opposite sideplay is inflicted on adjacent wheelsets. This all means that I won't have to worry about the consequences of carrying valve gear for both sides of the loco on a common metal stretcher screwed or clamped in place. If I paint the backs of the coupling rods with some hard lacquer "just in case" the whole thing ought to be electrically pretty much bomb-proof! We'll see anyway.

 

Excuse also any high-speed typing blunders in the above......

 

Thanks for a very comprehensive assessment!  Also for explaining why I couldn't get the body off mine - I didn't want risk causing damage by forcing things, which in view of your comments sounds as if I was wise.  Mine runs slightly noisily as if more lubrication may help, so I may have another go at getting the top off, bearing the above in mind.

 

I also thought the valve gear mouldings, although nicely detailed, looked a bit 'flat' and wondered whether it would be worth picking out the rotating shafts (at least) in a colour to suggest polished steel.  In the coloured artist's impression which accompanies advertising for the guys aiming to build the replica '2007', these parts are portrayed as unpainted and polished, but it doesn't seem possible to tell from contemporary black & white photos.  I also wondered whether a coat of 'Klear' over the green livery might help to 'lift' it slightly - in a lot of the pictures of the real thing, the platework seems to have been kept smartly polished.