Prices versus detailing

[dibber25]

Some of the new Bachmann locos released in the USA in the past few months have moulded handrails in places....the difference is that over here the Sun does not appear to shine out of their backsides either.

 

Best, Pete.

 

In the USA, Bachmann seems to do what Hornby does in the UK - cater to the trainset market. Bachmann's older HO locos don't attract the 'serious modeller' any more than Hornby's 'Limby' range does here. That's because they are horses for courses and, I suspect, in both cases it's the volume sales of the 'trainset' items which underpins the market for the super-detailed items, not the other way round.

CHRIS LEIGH

[G-BOAF]

Will you be building kits instead?

No, I probably won't get an 8P. I migh get a 7MT, which will need to be professionally renumbered as Britannia or Cromwell (more expense) at some future date. I'll just have to do without a BR Standard Pacific.

My argument is that had DoG been announced to a comparable standard to the Britannia, I would have jumped.

 

Further more, by the time I have sourced etched deflectors and handrails for the 8P, painted them and fitted them, the time an money involved would at least equal if Hornby had done a proper job!

[roger440]

Recession or no, my gut feeling is that this is pretty typical of the modeller customers of all the RTR makers. Turn out something 'good'  - which I would define as matching or exceeding what can be built by most of us from a good quality kit - and while 'we' may not like the higher price it will be purchased when it can be afforded. Whether or not that supplies the sales volumes and return that Hornby need is known only to them. But given the way they have put out successively better items over the past half dozen years they must have been getting some sort of encouragment from the market response?

I think the assesment that most will pay for a better model is indeed correct. Without wishing to upset anyone, those who reguarly moan about the cost, are, i suspect in the minority. From what i can see, looking at the amount and pace of new excellent models, and the demographic you see at the more serious exhibitions, the main "modelling as distinct from toys" market is formed largely of those with enough disposable income to buy the current crop of models.

 

Clearly, the vast majority of releases must be selling, as the manufacturers keep churning out more. If they didn't sell they would stop making them, as any ensible buisness would.  Its easy to see what doesn't sell. Look in the bargains section on Hattons website!

[Removed a/c]

want to make clear how long the pricing was stable the past years, inside the Hornby 1995 catalogue

there is a pricelist and looking trough it i see some steamloco's comparable with some in the Railroad

versions today with the diverence today's Railroad's are better than the models in the 1995 catalogue

R 295 -  A 3 - Dick Turpin 67.-

R 144 -  A 4 - Dominion of Canada  67.-

R 308 -  LMS 4-6-0 Patriot 62.-

Today's Railroads have loco drive and dcc ready , with a yearly inflation of 3% these would now cost

110.- and 102.- but today's Railroad's cost about 70.- and 60.-, you get better one's now for the same amount as then, so the prices for the low line models stayed the same in 15 years time, so do people really expect this could go on for ages? there will come a time[ soon] Hornby has to increase the low budget models even if they make them simpler now, there is a borderline you cannot go further down otherwise they can't produced it anymore even not in China and elswere because other cheap labour country's are fast growing economies and even there wages will rise, so people can stay complaning about rising prices but they have to go pay more once otherwise there wil be nothing to buy anymore,

because they cannot produce it anymore.

Quit simple not?

Ironic that you should choose Dick Turpin HAHAHA

 

They may well be cheaper but these are still RR and for about the same price you can get a very detailed Bachmann, ViTrains or Heljan.

[wombatofludham]

I think the assesment that most will pay for a better model is indeed correct. Without wishing to upset anyone, those who reguarly moan about the cost, are, i suspect in the minority. From what i can see, looking at the amount and pace of new excellent models, and the demographic you see at the more serious exhibitions, the main "modelling as distinct from toys" market is formed largely of those with enough disposable income to buy the current crop of models.

 

Clearly, the vast majority of releases must be selling, as the manufacturers keep churning out more. If they didn't sell they would stop making them, as any ensible buisness would.  Its easy to see what doesn't sell. Look in the bargains section on Hattons website!

How can you be sure the "modelling as distinct from toys" market is immune from current economics?  I know of one of my friends who a couple of years ago thought nothing of buying hand built O gauge brass RTR at well north of three figure sums but has now had to sell everything to concentrate expenditure on real life.  Another friend who had been buying precisely the superdetail models Hornby were making is now buying second hand, or doing without, and has scaled back buying new models again because the economy has caught up with him.  Even the comfortably off retired market who would appear to have been the market Hornby were targeting given their recent releases, is increasingly finding themselves having to bankroll their offspring and grandchildren.  How anyone can make the sweeping assumption that the "serious" modeller is somehow completely immune from the economy and can continue to spend a three figure sum regularly on a luxury item is a mystery.

 

As for the Hattons "bargains", I suspect that has more to do with their negotiating power, and internal sales performances than any measure of whether a model is a duff seller.  Given they are heavily discounting their own commissioned items, and yet to be released Bachmann Mk1 sleepers, I'm inclined to think other factors affect their discounting decisions.

[buffalo]

...How anyone can make the sweeping assumption that the "serious" modeller is somehow completely immune from the economy and can continue to spend a three figure sum regularly on a luxury item is a mystery...

But, surely, you are making a similar sweeping generalisation that we are all heading for poverty on the basis of a couple of anecdotes? I'm sure both extremes exist in significant numbers but there must be a wide spectrum between them. I wouldn't like to generalise further just from personal anecdotes.

 

Nick

[Ron Ron Ron]

?????????

[Cor-onGRT4]

Yes indeed

 

It seems i have shaken up some important item

[Gavvy2]

I should like to add something to this debate that has not had much of a mention. I refer to the frsgility of current Hornby super detailed models. I don't think I am hamfisted but I have several small plastic bsgs containing delicate bits which have broken or fallen off. This trend started I think with the Q1 and seems to have got worse! I have several Britannias but the ones I feel happiest running are the Chinese tender drives as they are unlikely to be damaged in use.

Give me robustnuss over fragility .The ideal of course is strong fine detail but even if this is possible I'm sure it would cost more!

Incidently I could have placed this message in any one of the three threads running!

Gavin

[Wherry Lines]

How much of the fine detail does one see when operating anyway? Whilst I can see that some people want ever finer detail, there has to be a limit. I would imagine that Hornby have done some research and come to a suitable conclusion that they think will be sustainable into the future. Hornby produce models for model railways, not glass cabinets. They are designed to be, if you'll excuse the expression, played with. 

Lets allow their first few 'design clever' products emerge and discuss the pros and cons once we have something to look at.

[Ozexpatriate]

An interesting piece in 'The Sunday Times' about manufacturing (=assembly) returning from China to the USA for some Apple products.  One very telling point was the amount of labour as a percentage of the overall cost - 2%.

Assembly of electronics is very different from model railways. The small percentage of the overall cost is a reflection of Foxconn's 'battery hen' working conditions - not that the labour involved is negligible, and the volumes for consumer electronics are orders of magnitude greater than for model railways.

 

So in some respects it leaves me wondering exactly what we are talking about - just how much does the labour element contribute to the cost of Chinese produced model railway items as a percentage?

Did you get a chance to look at the two Rapido Trains articles on Chinese manufacturing that Gerald Henriksen kindly provided? These were the most informative discussions on Chinese manufacturing of model railway items that I have seen.

 

I particularly draw your attention to the photographs of the QC rejects in this topic. (In my opinion these photographs are the key to understanding 'design clever'.)

 

The second reference shows lots of pictures at various stages of the manufacturing process and gives a great idea of just how much manual work is required.

 

Contrast the manufacturing of model railways with the level of automation at Foxconn for making iPads. (This is another good example of iPad manufacturing.)

 

References:

... The highlights - 7.5 hours of labour to make a highly detailed model, which converts to just under $13 per model. It is estimated the labour cost in Canada for that model would be $128. He guesses that adding in all the other costs would bump the model from about $80 to the $400 to $500 range.

 

See the end of this newsletter http://www.rapidotra...pidonews39.html

Well, despite what many of us want to believe the model train market is actually very small, and the production runs as a result are very small compared to most of what is mass produced.

 

For example, Rapido is currently doing a model of the Canadian, 2 Diesels, 1 Dummy, and 10 different cars. The total number of trains produced is only 2,000 (split into 5? different paint schemes). Even if this was a US model, it would still only take you to about 20,000 models. Not really mass produced is it now?

 

As to the amount of labour required, another of the newsletters take you through some of what happens http://www.rapidotra...pidonews37.html

[Ian J.]

The cost of fitting detail is one of the reasons why I think that for stock designed for and aimed at the modeller end of the market, the detail could be left off pretty much in its entirety for the modeller to fit later. Anyone who wants the detail but doesn't want to fit it themselves can always ask their LHS (or someone else) to do it for them, for the price per hour that it costs to do so.

 

Edit: Actually, if such a system were to be done, it could have the beneficial effect of creating some jobs in this country, or at least give the LHSs another lifeline of income.

[Ozexpatriate]

It seems i have shaken up some important item

This issue is being discussed in a least four separate threads right now. 

[Guest dubdee1000]

Did you get a chance to look at the two Rapido Trains articles on Chinese manufacturing that Gerald Henriksen kindly provided? These were the most informative discussions on Chinese manufacturing of model railway items that I have seen.

 

I particularly draw your attention to the photographs of the QC rejects in this topic. (In my opinion these photographs are the key to understanding 'design clever'.)

 

 

Interesting link. The level at which QC rejects (ie, what is acceptable and what isn't) is presumably dictated by Rapido or whoever commissions the model. It was particularly interesting to read the comments further down the page (under "Moving Production to North America")regarding barely detailed models.

[The Stationmaster]

This issue is being discussed in a least four separate threads right now. 

And I one of them I did mention that 'design clever'  would probably have a potential positive impact on quality control (don't ask me to link it - we're now over several threads as you've said and I can't remember which one it was in without delving through several of them ).  I think it's not necessarily just 'design clever' but also very much a case of greater control of manufacturing standards.

[Dick Turpin]

Ironic that you should choose Dick Turpin HAHAHA

 

Why's that then? 

[Dick Turpin]

Not only are a lot of people prepared to pay for higher quality and detail, some of the recent crop are things of beauty and a real joy to behold, and even if they may be the wrong period or region for your own needs or taste, it’s good to read of all the happiness they bring in other quarters.

 

Also, however maddening it may be when something is released that I might like to have but just can’t afford at the time, I find that if I wait (sometimes more than a year in some cases), an opportunity eventually comes along when I can pick one up  when I do have the money, sometimes quite favourably. 

[Bernard Lamb]

How can you be sure the "modelling as distinct from toys" market is immune from current economics?  I know of one of my friends who a couple of years ago thought nothing of buying hand built O gauge brass RTR at well north of three figure sums but has now had to sell everything to concentrate expenditure on real life.  Another friend who had been buying precisely the superdetail models Hornby were making is now buying second hand, or doing without, and has scaled back buying new models again because the economy has caught up with him.  Even the comfortably off retired market who would appear to have been the market Hornby were targeting given their recent releases, is increasingly finding themselves having to bankroll their offspring and grandchildren.  How anyone can make the sweeping assumption that the "serious" modeller is somehow completely immune from the economy and can continue to spend a three figure sum regularly on a luxury item is a mystery.

 

That point of view is getting dangerously near to politics with a somewhat Ballsian view of the economy.

True some people are finding things difficult.

In other areas/sectors people have never been so well off.

All those people with jobs for life, final salary pensions, owners of right to buy local authority houses etc are to a greater or lesser extent immune from the current economic climate.

That makes three generations around where I live quite cushioned from the "real world".

Meeting a few ex colleagues over Christmas this was 100% the opinion.

These groups also contain a good number of the "interested in nostalgia market" that Hornby also think have still got a few bob to spend.

One big problem for Hornby is that it is not a black and white situation.

Current releases have generally sold out and could well have been sold at higher prices.

Hornby by coming up with these new releases are maintaining their number one brand name.

The big question is can they maintain their position as number one in volume train set sales and number one as the supplier of the serious market?

Without a, probably less in number than in recent years, cutting edge series of new releases I doubt it.

I was recently looking at an H0 0-4-0T loco in Germany. Price? 199 euros.

That does put things into perspective.

Most people that I know in Germany are complaining about the economic situation there in far stronger terms than the people I know in the UK.

Bernard

(Reaching for his tin hat)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I should like to add something to this debate that has not had much of a mention. I refer to the fragility of current Hornby super detailed models. I don't think I am hamfisted but I have several small plastic bags containing delicate bits which have broken or fallen off.

 Put small detail parts on running models, and some will fall off. This became a fact of life when 'we' started superdetailing models (this would be back in the 1960s in my experience, naturally YMMV). It's at its worst on locos, because the excitation by the motor and drive train is present, in addition to the vibration of running on the track. Even quite definitely soft soldered on components can fall off in time thanks to fatigue, and small plastic mountings can likewise fail. A definite vulnerable detail point on current Hornby steam models is the plastic windbreaker on cab sides. My models go on track and stay there, unhandled. The windbreaker can and does eventually break off the locating pegs 'all by itself' on some models. That might be the sort of detail to drop as a separately inserted part.

 

I particularly enjoyed a handrail on my Bach class 20 which came loose on the unseen side and succeeded in dropping off four stanchions before detection. When running at a scale 30mph ish, its usual running speed,  that handrail was being harmonically excited. There's no way the manufacturers are going to be able to eliminate this problem: if we want the detail on RTR (I do) then we have to manage the consequences, just as we did with self-detailed models.

[roger440]

How can you be sure the "modelling as distinct from toys" market is immune from current economics?  I know of one of my friends who a couple of years ago thought nothing of buying hand built O gauge brass RTR at well north of three figure sums but has now had to sell everything to concentrate expenditure on real life.  Another friend who had been buying precisely the superdetail models Hornby were making is now buying second hand, or doing without, and has scaled back buying new models again because the economy has caught up with him.  Even the comfortably off retired market who would appear to have been the market Hornby were targeting given their recent releases, is increasingly finding themselves having to bankroll their offspring and grandchildren.  How anyone can make the sweeping assumption that the "serious" modeller is somehow completely immune from the economy and can continue to spend a three figure sum regularly on a luxury item is a mystery.

 

As for the Hattons "bargains", I suspect that has more to do with their negotiating power, and internal sales performances than any measure of whether a model is a duff seller.  Given they are heavily discounting their own commissioned items, and yet to be released Bachmann Mk1 sleepers, I'm inclined to think other factors affect their discounting decisions.

 

I dont recall saying in my post that the market was immune. Clearly there a people who have come on hard times, but there are, equally plenty of those that haven't. I believe, that plenty that can still continue to fund their hobby.

 

As suggested elsewhere, this is likely to get political, so all i'll say is my job is definitely a retail function (not models), but i think i have a resonable take on what is actually happening out there.

 

 

But, surely, you are making a similar sweeping generalisation that we are all heading for poverty on the basis of a couple of anecdotes? I'm sure both extremes exist in significant numbers but there must be a wide spectrum between them. I wouldn't like to generalise further just from personal anecdotes.

 

Nick

Agreed!

[wombatofludham]

But, surely, you are making a similar sweeping generalisation that we are all heading for poverty on the basis of a couple of anecdotes? I'm sure both extremes exist in significant numbers but there must be a wide spectrum between them. I wouldn't like to generalise further just from personal anecdotes.

 

Nick

Giving two examples is not the same as forming an opinion based on two personal anecdotes. They were illustrative, not the only source of information.  I worked long enough as a planner to know you can't base any opinion or decision on just two data sources and that you need multiple sources before you can begin to identify trends. 

[robmcg]

With the current slow delivery of some products from Hornby, it is still nice to have via the second-hand market some lovely highly detailed models at very good prices, this below at around £50 from a reputable dealer.

 

I have bought and sold a fair number of Hornby and other models recently and these are not easy to sell, but the detail is in my opinion excellent. PSP6-enhanced.

 

...pre-the awful 4-pin plugs, too. Apologies for similarities to other recent pictures. Laziness you know...

 

 

Rob