TCS DP2X decoders.....continue to fail

[250BOB]

I originally had about 8 or 9 of these decoders, superb for fitting into small places like in Steam engines.

 

But slowly, over the 3 years or so I have been using them, they have periodically failed.....and I am now down to my last 2 that are still running.

 

All have been in different locos, steam, diesel, large and small.......the latest to fail on Thursday this week was in a Scot, 46144.  Its been in the loco for over 12 months.

 

The symptoms are that the loco begins to gather a slightly higher than normal speed on the downgrades of my layout, then slowing back to normal again...eventually resulting in a complete max speed runaway.  Decoder now giving ERR 01 on the program track, and every time I place it on the main it just wants to shoot off at a scale 150mph.

 

By the way I use a Lenz system to control the layout, using 2 LH100 throttles.

 

I do ask a lot of the decoders, in that I like very slow acceleration, hence programme CV3 with a very high value indeed.  Similarly for CV4 to give me slow acceleration.

Also, the top speed in CV5 is set very low too, to give a scale speed of 40mph max for expresses......and 20mph max for freights.

 

The setting of CV6 has always been roughly half the value of CV5.

 

I'm completely and utterly fed up with the performance of these decoders on my layout, perhaps its the way I am setting up the decoders to give what I want.  But I do the same with ALL my other decoders, ALL of which are Lenz, and mostly Lenz Standards........and in 6 years of DCC....I have never had one fail.

 

I forgot to say earlier, that 3 of the TCS decoders were replaced directly from the manufacturer in the USA.....so I suppose you could say I have had a total of 11 decoders, not 8.

 

Anyway I am down to my last 2 TCS decoders, and like ALL the ones before, I will replaced them with Lenz decoders when the time comes.  I have chosen the Lenz Silver Mini where space is at a premium....but I consider the extra price to be fine, in order to achieve the long term reliability and performance.

 

I wont be going down the TCS decoder route again.....although I do appreciate there are many satisfied users of there decoders.  So is it that I ask too much of them is it the way I like to set them up, in conjunction with gradients....I suspect it is.....but then again the Lenz decoders perform admirably under the same conditions.

 

About 3 years ago, I did have a foray into the range of DCC Concepts decoders...with surprisingly similar results, almost identical performance.  Needless to say, of the 5 of them that I bought, non survive today........all failed.

 

Bob

[Gruffalo]

I am no expert Bob but a very interested reader as I have some TCS M1's for my smaller steam locos. My railway is to include a short section of 1:45 upwards gradient, the rest is around 1:80 upwards but I do have 1:40 down grade over around 3m of track. How steep are your slopes?

[250BOB]

I am no expert Bob but a very interested reader as I have some TCS M1's for my smaller steam locos. My railway is to include a short section of 1:45 upwards gradient, the rest is around 1:80 upwards but I do have 1:40 down grade over around 3m of track. How steep are your slopes?

 

I started using the woodland scenics 4% range(1 in 48).....but these proved too steep for some of my steamers with 6 coach rakes, or 20 wagon freight rakes.......eventually I removed the Woodland Scenics on the gradient parts, and reduced the steepness to about 1 in 80 before I can honestly say there were no more problems.  Obviously the curves on the gradients made life a bit tougher too.

 

The gradients run over about a 20 foot length of combined straight and curve, both up and down.......and there is a noticeable increase in speed on the down grades using the TCS DP2X decoders, say about a scale 10/20 mph....not much, but it is noticeable.The Lenz decoders certainly do not do this....and at the bottom of one gradient is the main station which I like expresses to pass through at 40mph....not 60mph.....and I dont want to be continually reducing the speed every time it comes down the gradient.

 

Check out some of the video on my layout link, bottom of this post.

 

Bob

[Gruffalo]

Impressive layout Bob and thanks for the info. I will be aiming at 30mph scaled for freight, 40mph for B-sets and 60mph for express passenger services although I reckon on 6-7 x 57' coaches for express passengers, <20 10/12 Ton freight wagons and standard 2-coach B-sets so all my assembled trains will be shorter than yours. My curves are a minimum of 760 radius if on an incline but 690 radius if on a decline. I hope that will be gentle enough. Work starts in 5 weeks!

[Barry Ten]

I started using the woodland scenics 4% range(1 in 48).....but these proved too steep for some of my steamers with 6 coach rakes, or 20 wagon freight rakes.......eventually I removed the Woodland Scenics on the gradient parts, and reduced the steepness to about 1 in 80 before I can honestly say there were no more problems.  Obviously the curves on the gradients made life a bit tougher too.

 

The 4% grades are actually closer to 1 in 25 - it's the 2% ones that are 1 in 48.

 

I use TCS decoders in some of my N scale locos (which have to get up and down 2% grades) and I haven't had any major issues. I did have one fail in a 4mm diesel, though - just stopped, dead, with no warning of failure. However, my supplier replaced it without quibble.

[tender]

Hi Bob.

I've not had any of the problems you discribe with the TCS decoders but they do come with a 'goof Proof' guarentee so i'd send them back for replacement. If you dont want to use them you can at least recuperate some funds by selling the replacemnets on eBay.

 

Ray.

[250BOB]

The 4% grades are actually closer to 1 in 25 - it's the 2% ones that are 1 in 48.

 

I use TCS decoders in some of my N scale locos (which have to get up and down 2% grades) and I haven't had any major issues. I did have one fail in a 4mm diesel, though - just stopped, dead, with no warning of failure. However, my supplier replaced it without quibble.

 

Sorry Barry.......you are right, its 2%....definitley the 1 in 48....not good at this % gradient stuff.

 

Yes, I too have had several replacements as I said earlier, even 3 sent direct from America, plus one extra for my trouble....as I posted the faulty ones back to the US.

 

But its the lack of smooth acceleration curve, uneven jumps between speed steps, and speed gathering downhill that detract from the quality of the decoder when compared to a Lenz Standard, which is about 25% cheaper.  But of course the size and shape of the DP2X is a real plus.....and you just want it to work.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Bob

[250BOB]

Hi Bob.

I've not had any of the problems you discribe with the TCS decoders but they do come with a 'goof Proof' guarentee so i'd send them back for replacement. If you dont want to use them you can at least recuperate some funds by selling the replacemnets on eBay.

 

Ray.

 

Youre right Ray.........but I'm not sure whether Bromsgrove models are going to have them back at this stage, as he is winding everything down......I also understood that the requirement was to send them back to the manufacturer in the States......to be honest, I have lost ALL faith in them, having had 11 over the years, and 9 fail in use.

 

But you are right, I should take the time and trouble to return them.  Cos at £22 a time they are not cheap.

 

Have you used these decoders in the way I describe....i.e. CV values as described, large roundy roundy layout with gradients.??

 

My values of Cv's 3,4,5 and 6 are respectively 150, 75, 86, 40    

 

It seems like after extended running with these values, the decoder begins to give up.

 

Happy New Year...............Bob

[Edwin_m]

What is your track voltage set to?  I've read, though I don't know how true it is, that US DCC systems tend to work at lower voltages than European ones, hence US decoders may be a bit less tolerant if the voltage is on the high side. 

[250BOB]

What is your track voltage set to?  I've read, though I don't know how true it is, that US DCC systems tend to work at lower voltages than European ones, hence US decoders may be a bit less tolerant if the voltage is on the high side. 

 

I have no idea what the track voltage is....and that I could set it myself anyway.???

 

I assumed it wouldnt matter, as the decoders in question are the TCS DP2X-UK........the UK bit at the end would indicate they are for use in the UK, and that TCS have considered that.

 

My thread is purely a factual one of my experiences with the TCS DP2X-UK decoder over the last 3 or 4 years.......unfortunatley not an experience I intend to have again.

 

Regards.......Bob

[tender]

.....to be honest, I have lost ALL faith in them, having had 11 over the years, and 9 fail in use.

 

 

Can't blame you for that Bob, I must admit since discovering Lenz Silvers and more recently Zimo decoders I've not bought any TCS unless absolutely necessary due to space. Most new Loco''s coming onto the market now seem to be more DCC friendly space wise especially as sound is now becoming more popular.

 

Ray.

 

PS Forgive my absent mind. Happy New Year.

[tender]

 

Have you used these decoders in the way I describe....i.e. CV values as described, large roundy roundy layout with gradients.??

 

My values of Cv's 3,4,5 and 6 are respectively 150, 75, 86, 40    

 

It seems like after extended running with these values, the decoder begins to give up.

 

Happy New Year...............Bob

Sorry Bob, forgot to answer your question,

The CV values I'm using are not too dissimilar to yours, but as I'm still layout building they are not getting much use so maybe haven't had time to develop any faults.

 

Ray

[250BOB]

Sorry Bob, forgot to answer your question,

The CV values I'm using are not too dissimilar to yours, but as I'm still layout building they are not getting much use so maybe haven't had time to develop any faults.

 

Ray

 

Hi Ray,

It seems like the extended running, i.e. continuous circuits for about 30 mins, is the thing that pushes them over the edge.  little bits here and there, 2 or 3 mins at a time dont seem to affect them too much.

Bob.

[Butler Henderson]

The UK in the code is to identify that the decoder ir orientated to fit UK locos ie at ninety degrees to the normal version which would be too wide for most locosto fit in. As for track voltage TCS decoders can fail to program correctly if its too high.

[RFS]

The default track voltage using a Lenz LZV100 is 16 volts.

[Gruffalo]

There may be a clue here. I have read other reports of problems where US decoders are used with EU power supplies. NCE as an example look to run between 13V & 15V so your 16V is actually a notable amount above that. There is always a difference between the No-Load voltage and the voltage when operating several trains (it will be lower with more motors drawing from it). If you have access to a digital voltage meter - DVM - you should be able to read it fairly accurately.

[250BOB]

The UK in the code is to identify that the decoder ir orientated to fit UK locos ie at ninety degrees to the normal version which would be too wide for most locosto fit in. As for track voltage TCS decoders can fail to program correctly if its too high.

So are you indicating that TCS decoders should perhaps not be used by people with Lenz systems? Is it too risky.? At £22 each, it's an expensive risk if what you say is correct.?

Thanks for pointing out what the UK bit was meant to indicate.

Is Lenz unique in running at 16v, my pal has a Gaugemaster Prodigy and has suffered some issues with these decoders too.

[Edwin_m]

The voltage is adjustable on Lenz, it's a bit tricky to do but it's somewhere in the manual.  This will of course slow down all your trains, unless you use Zimo decoders or any others where the decoder's reference voltage is adjustable independently of the track voltage. 

[GoingUnderground]

The NMRA RP S 9.1 says:

"Digital Decoders intended for "N" and smaller scales shall be designed to withstand a DC voltage of at least 24 volts as measured at the track.

Digital Decoders intended for scales larger than "N" shall be designed to withstand a DC voltage of at least 27 volts as measured at the track."

 

The standard also says:

"In no case should the peak amplitude of the command control signal exceed +/- 22 volts. The minimum peak value of the NMRA digital signal needed to provide

power to the decoder shall be +/-7 volts measured at the track."

 

On this basis a TCS N gauge decoder should have absolutely no problems with a Lenz system operating at 16V as it has another 8V headroom, always assuming that the decoder has been designed and built to comply with S 9.1.

[250BOB]

The NMRA RP S 9.1 says:

"Digital Decoders intended for "N" and smaller scales shall be designed to withstand a DC voltage of at least 24 volts as measured at the track.

Digital Decoders intended for scales larger than "N" shall be designed to withstand a DC voltage of at least 27 volts as measured at the track."

 

The standard also says:

"In no case should the peak amplitude of the command control signal exceed +/- 22 volts. The minimum peak value of the NMRA digital signal needed to provide

power to the decoder shall be +/-7 volts measured at the track."

 

On this basis a TCS N gauge decoder should have absolutely no problems with a Lenz system operating at 16V as it has another 8V headroom, always assuming that the decoder has been designed and built to comply with S 9.1.

 

So based on this NMRA standard....the TCS DP2X-UK decoder, if manufactured to specification, should have absolutely no concerns running on a 16v Lenz operated system then.??

[GoingUnderground]

So based on this NMRA standard....the TCS DP2X-UK decoder, if manufactured to specification, should have absolutely no concerns running on a 16v Lenz operated system then.??

As I read the NMRA spec, "Yes".

 

But, your comment about decoders giving up the ghost after an extended period of running suggests that they're overheating and that's what's killing them. Voltage can play a part in overheating. So it may also depend on how and where the decoder is installed in the loco.

[250BOB]

As I read the NMRA spec, "Yes".

 

But, your comment about decoders giving up the ghost after an extended period of running suggests that they're overheating and that's what's killing them. Voltage can play a part in overheating. So it may also depend on how and where the decoder is installed in the loco.

 

Being a straignt plug in......it would be right in the middle of the boiler where the 8 pin plug is....and will not have any wrap around insulation.  But , yes, I seem to remember others failing in he past after a prolonged period of running   But sometimes I just let a train run round the layout while fiddling with some scenery or other....it can run for 30 mins or more at times.

 

Is it the overheat or overload protection that is inadequate on these decoders.....certainly never occured with any Lenz product I have ued.......ever.!!!!

[melmerby]

I have given up on TCS decoders, not because of failures but because of inconsistent speed curves.

Compared to the aforementioned Lenz which I have now standardised on, the TCS decoders have a very ragged graph. (discussed at length on other topics)

 

I do have a TCS T1 which exhibits similar problems to the fault mentioned, that is in a Hornby loco with an XO4 motor and it does get warm!

 

Keith

 

P.S. my Lenz system is set to 15v (there is a command to adjust it in the manuals IIRC 11-22v in 0.5v steps)

[250BOB]

The curve is very odd as you say Keith, and I too am 99% Lenz decoders now. I'm not that disappointed the TCS one has failed, I can now get a Lenz one fitted. I haven't even got the will to go to the trouble of getting it replaced under the goof proof warranty.

I'll checkout this business of running the Lenz system lower voltage.....are there any negatives about doing that.??

Bob

[Sunnysa]

As i said on another forum, I believe TCS DP2X decoders did have a problem. Maybe a bad batch.

 

 I have never used DP2X but have used various TCS decoders M series, T series etc for yrs with never a problem.

 

 It is only the kast 18 months I swapped to DCCconcepts decoders as my non sound choice.

 

Reason? DCCconcepts decoders perform exactly same as TCS and are cheaper.Slow running   is as good as dearer chips.

 

 My DCC system is ECoS as master system with Lenz V3.6 connected to ECoS as slave unit.

 

 Cheers

 

  Ian