HS2 route to Leeds

[18B]

Just been reading that Toton is to be the site of an eastmidlands parkway station, have the maps of the northern section been made available yet? Would be good to se where the route would go?

[phil-b259]

The route was supposed to be made public late last year (November or December I think). Unfortunately the Government delayed it for some reason and IIRC the target date is now "sometime in the new year" (Technically that could cover right until December 2013 - but they probably mean sometime between now & March)

[Christopher125]

The new route is to be announced within days as is Network Rail's Business plan.

 

Chris

[jamie92208]

As a resident of Leeds I'm fascinated as to what the details are going to be in particualar where it is going to terminate in a rather crowded city centre.  I will await with interest.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

As a resident of Leeds I'm fascinated as to what the details are going to be in particualar where it is going to terminate in a rather crowded city centre.  I will await with interest.

 

Jamie

 

I would question whether a town centre terminal is the best answer when they may want to extend towards Newcastle at a later date. In any case, many travellers do not want to have to get into a city centre before starting their journey.

[Barry O]

they can have it (the station) anywhere on the new super dooper trolleybus system - so looks like the Miggie might have to go...... (very tongue in cheek but you never know in Leeds)

[Glorious NSE]

As a resident of Leeds I'm fascinated as to what the details are going to be in particualar where it is going to terminate in a rather crowded city centre. 

I would question whether a town centre terminal is the best answer when they may want to extend towards Newcastle at a later date. In any case, many travellers do not want to have to get into a city centre before starting their journey.

 

 

If Birmingham is a precedent then a motorway-friendly out-of-town location plus a city station on a spur might be feasible.

[jamie92208]

If Birmingham is a precedent then a motorway-friendly out-of-town location plus a city station on a spur might be feasible.

Slightly toungue in cheek there is a very good location next to where the A63 link road joins the M1 (J 45 I think) namely the old sewage beds at Knostrop, and conveniently close to Neville Hill for a link into the City centre.  Might get quite a few good nicknames though. 

 

The question of a northward extension is an interesting one.  Apparently this is the main probloem with Sheffield, whether a spur or on the main line is subject of much lobbying.  We shall have to wait and see.

 

Jamie

[Barry O]

If the fastest train from Leeds to London is 1hr 24 min (projected) the choice of location for stations at each end of this run has to be good to keep up with the 1hr 59min centre to centre available currently.

 

Having to change to get into Leeds City centre will only elongate journey times back to where they are now - I suppose we are paying somebody a lot of money to get this right.......  Of course Jamie - thats why the trolley bus system will go nowhere near Knostrop or Neville Hill so its a really joined up approach we have here!

[Edwin_m]

Routes will be announced on Jan 15 I think.  I have seen them but am unable to comment in public, except to suggest that they will stir up plenty of debate! 

[Christopher125]

I would question whether a town centre terminal is the best answer when they may want to extend towards Newcastle at a later date. In any case, many travellers do not want to have to get into a city centre before starting their journey

 

The arrangement is expected to echo that of Birmingham with a through line bypassing a city centre terminus - for Leeds passengers heading towards Newcastle a triangular junction could be justified, if not initially then later, to allow certain HS2 services to serve Leeds via a reversal, though this would obviously be a much smaller passenger flow especially without a further extension of HS2 as all services would use the existing line.

 

Chris

[jamie92208]

Well Jan 15th has been and gone with no news.  Has it been kicked into the political long grass as too difficult to do.  Any update would be appreciated.

 

Jamie

[Christopher125]

Well Jan 15th has been and gone with no news.  Has it been kicked into the political long grass as too difficult to do.  Any update would be appreciated.

 

Jamie

 

They are probably waiting for the outcome of the judicial reviews before announcing it so we shouldn't have long to wait - i think it's pretty telling that Boris plans to announce a prospective route for Crossrail 2 in the next couple of weeks.

 

Chris

[Joseph_Pestell]

If the fastest train from Leeds to London is 1hr 24 min (projected) the choice of location for stations at each end of this run has to be good to keep up with the 1hr 59min centre to centre available currently.

 

Having to change to get into Leeds City centre will only elongate journey times back to where they are now - I suppose we are paying somebody a lot of money to get this right.......  Of course Jamie - thats why the trolley bus system will go nowhere near Knostrop or Neville Hill so its a really joined up approach we have here!

 

That's a fair point. But many users will not actually be going to/from the city centres anyway. If you are going to Leeds for a day's business meetings, you start from home not your Central London office.

 

It's the big flaw of Govt reasoning in relation to a Heathrow branch (or more accurately an Iver Parkway branch). They see it as just serving the airport. But it would also be used my many people for whom such a station would be far easier to access than Euston. A good service there would allow the Euston station (if they really have to go for such an expensive/difficult site) to be smaller and cheaper.  So the Iver branch would really pay for itself before it even opened.

[Edwin_m]

That is the purpose of the Old Oak Common site - good distribution across London via Crossrail, and the HS2 reports actually say it reduces pressure on Euston, although that's more a case of fewer pasengers than fewer trains. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Indeed. I'm not saying that the OOC station is not a good idea but, as you point out, it does little to reduce the buildcost of Euston.

 

CrossRail is rather unbalanced, with many trains terminating at Paddington (perhaps OOC post HS2) from the east. A link from the LNW at Willesden onto Crossrail would not only help to balance CrossRail operations but also free up space at Euston.

 

But why go to Euston at all? With a branch to Heathrow taking some of the "London" traffic, and Crossrail taking a lot from the Great Western, it really ought to be possible (despite recent developments that have encroached onto railway lands, to put the HS2 terminal at Paddington. It would make the whole project far more affordable than tunnelling to a rebuilt Euston.  

[dmustu]

The HS2 branch to Heathrow may never happen. Its something that the politico's seem to think is needed, but when speaking to the man from the dft sometime ago about it, he said that provision would be made to easily install a junction for a branch to Heathrow at a future date, but there were no plans for it in the first phase of HS2. I got the impression that they were hoping that the politico's would quietly forget the idea of a Heathrow HS2 line, as it would be akward to provide, and probably offer no time savings over getting off at OOC and jumping on a Heathrow Express for the short ride to the airport.

 

Euston makes sense, as the station is going to be re-built anyway, i'd guess that the re-building will include provision for the HS2 terminal, also HS2 is primarily a mirror of the WCML, so why not keep Euston as the London terminal for WCML as it is now.

[Glorious NSE]

I'm also in the 'Euston makes sense' camp.

 

Paddington is poorly situated in terms of serving the bits of Central London that most folk want to go (either the city, or West End) and is pretty abysmal if you want to connect onto main lines South of the river - at best it would let folk change onto Crossrail to continue....but you'll be able to do that anyway at Old Oak if that's your best connection, so it doesn't offer many additional journey options over terminating at Old Oak!

 

Euston, especially if they get creative and put a proper link in to Kings Cross St Pancras offers better connections to/through the Central area, some fair (and improving) ones to the South via Thameslink and 'Crossrail 2' (which I have a feeling is 'the ghost of the Chelsea Hackney tube'?) - as well as connections onwards to Europe.

 

It's well overdue a rebuild anyhow, bring it on...

[Ron Ron Ron]

......and the HS2 reports actually say it reduces pressure on Euston, although that's more a case of fewer pasengers than fewer trains. 

 

It's as much to do with relieving pressure on the Tube and local infrastructure at Euston than the number of trains using the station.

As you know, a very high proportion of passengers transfer to/from the tube when leaving or joining trains there.

 

With a minimum of 35 - 40% of passengers expected to use OOC as a transfer point, rather than Euston, that would significantly reduce the impact on the Euston area.

CR2 may be another key factor in making a new Euston workable.

[Edwin_m]

Crossrail 2 is indeed the ghost of Chelsea-Hackney.  There are various options being looked at, including Crossrail-like links between suburban networks and self-contained DLR-like automated metros, but they all now seem to include a diversion via Euston which wasn't in the original C-H plan at all.  Maybe Euston and Euston Square tubes will finally be unified?!

 

Converting Paddington into an HS2 terminus would probably destroy much of its heritage, whereas at Euston that was kindly done for us fifty years ago.  And there's the small matter of where to terminate services to/from the west - at least HS2 would reduce the use of Euston by conventional trains*. 

 

*Yes many paths released by HS2 would indeed be taken up by shorter distance trains which would still use Euston.  But these would need to occupy the platforms for less time. 

[Glorious NSE]

Crossrail 2 is indeed the ghost of Chelsea-Hackney.  There are various options being looked at, including Crossrail-like links between suburban networks and self-contained DLR-like automated metros, but they all now seem to include a diversion via Euston which wasn't in the original C-H plan at all.  Maybe Euston and Euston Square tubes will finally be unified?!

 

Going OT - but I think it's a stretch them calling it 'Crossrail' if it was to be nothing more than a tube...

 

If it was a 'through' route like C1 is then 12 car long platforms may even be able to unify Euston Square, Euston and Kings Cross/St Pancras into one! 

[Edwin_m]

No doubt the marketing people will think of another name for it when things are a bit clearer.  In the meantime I'd rather they didn't, as it would just confuse people.  Bit of a stretch to call it a tube as well, though that name seems to have been applied willy-nilly to the sub-surface lines which aren't tubes in the technical sense. 

 

I seem to recall the 240m version of Euston Crossrail 2 station would indeed reach Kings Cross at its eastern end. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

....Maybe Euston and Euston Square tubes will finally be unified?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was already part of the Euston rebuilding proposal ?

The new tube ticket hall and concourse being located mid-way between the present Euston front door and Euston Square St.

Basically, under or in front of the proposed western half (HS lines) of the rebuilt station.

 

 

.

[AMJ]

When the cancelled tram sceme was planned a park and ride was on the cards for the Skelton Grange power station site.  Sounds a better name than Knostrop (also on same site).

 

This would probably end up with a station built off the Leeds - Woodlesford line.  If this was the HS2 northern terminus (north south alignment) and designed correctly then a future extension north to York/Newcastle could be simple.

 

Would make trips south easy as I could walk to the station in about 25 minutes.

[jamie92208]

When the cancelled tram sceme was planned a park and ride was on the cards for the Skelton Grange power station site.  Sounds a better name than Knostrop (also on same site).

 

This would probably end up with a station built off the Leeds - Woodlesford line.  If this was the HS2 northern terminus (north south alignment) and designed correctly then a future extension north to York/Newcastle could be simple.

 

Would make trips south easy as I could walk to the station in about 25 minutes.

The park and ride was on line 2 of the Supertram scheme but was at Stourton on the west side of the old m1 Junction 43,  next to the start of the M621, not Skelton Grange.  The line went underneath the M621 then turned sharp left to drop down alongside the Midland Line to Hun slet siding following the route of a long abandoned headshunt  then down to Hunslet Sidings beofer turning right onto Balm Road.  The sidings now occupied by Freightliner for their coal wagons was going to be the depot.  

 

However if, as I think it will, the route follows the Midland main Line from Sheffield to Leeds then the Stourton area would make an excellent station area where it goes under the Northern extension of the M1 and with access to the existing line for access to Leeds Station.  We will have to wait and see.

 

Jamie