Keswick to Penrith update

[Colin]

Just got back from a trip to Cumbria today, stayed the last 2 nights at Troutbeck, in a B&B (The Netherdene Guest House) right next to the course of the line - in fact, the lower part of the garden is a small section of the trackbed.
Across the road is the Troutbeck "Station House" (the old station, or so I was told) which seems to have had a fair bit of work done on it over the years including a pretty big extension, possibly over the course of the line. The B&B's owner was aware of the possibility of a move to reopen the line and half expects a compulsory purchase order one day.....
Anyway, I took 4 photos - I tried to show the line's course but was defeated on the west side of the main road by all the vegetation! A couple of shed roofs are barely discernible at a lower level, while on the other side of the A591 I took a couple of shots down the station access road. I assume that there used to be a road-over-rail bridge, but of this there was no sign at road level (unless I missed something).

[Captain Kernow]

Cedric Martindale is economical with the truth !

He told me in 1998 that the line would reopen in 2000.

Then in 2000 he told me he expected it to open in 2002.

Its now 2015 and they are stuck at £400,000 and nothing much has been raised for a number of years.

 

Cedric had the massive embarrassment to call a meeting at Keswick station hotel and says he couldn't pay back bonds.

Of course the bonds holders said they would accept a holding off of repayments.

 

Cedric went to the NWRDA for support and they said there was no need for a railway to Keswick.

 

Cedric has been pretty useless when it comes to persuading Eden District Council about the case for a railway.

One of the councillors wives owned Penruddock station and she got planning permission houses on the track bed where the station once was.

Flusco was probably the last nail in the coffin for the line with a diversion estimated at £17 million.

 

I am not a troll. I am a huge fan of the Keswick railway spending many hours walking the full length of it since closure.

I went on the line twice on the last day of operations.

I am a big fan of model railways being a electronics engineer I have designed lots of electronic controls for model railways.

Don't be fobbed off by the Keswick railway supporters dismissing of me. They know I am right thats why they get so upset.

No one doubts Cedric's sincerity and his passion for this cause, which makes your unnecessary personal attack on him on this forum so distasteful.

 

If you don't want to be called a troll, then stop behaving like one, and in your first two posts to boot. Unbelievable.

 

This is first and foremost a forum for model railway enthusiasts, most of which are also interested in the world of the real railway as well. That means we all like railways. Whilst many of us on here, myself included, are perfectly capable of skepticism when it's called for, most would nevertheless want potential railway reopening schemes like this to succeed. You profess to be an enthusiast, yet can't even summon up sufficient good grace to support the only person who's making any effort at all on behalf of returning a railway to Keswick.

 

You may wish to rubbish Cedric's achievements, but he's done a damn ed sight more towards the cause of rail transport in this country than you have, sunshine.

 

As far as I am concerned, you have yet to get your credibility rating on this forum above zero.

[jjb1970]

I don't question Cedric Martindale's integrity or the fact that he is a thoroughly decent chap. I also have complete admiration for the passion and drive he has thrown into his efforts to re-open the Keswick line. I'd also love to see it happen. However, for all that I tend to agree with the poster who is upsetting people in terms of his views of the status of the project and its chances of ever coming to fruition.

 

The project hasn't progressed in years, the authorities (who are not anti-rail) do not seem to see it as a viable project and there does not really seem to be any indication of any changes happening to restore some momentum to the project. Keswick is not a metropolis, neither is Carlisle which is the only city of any real size in Cumbria. The A66 may not be the best road in the world but it is not that bad, the problematic part of the A66 is on the other side of Penrith going towards scotch corner. There is the concept of lost value, if the local authorities put money into this scheme what else will they not be able to support and what offers the most benefit? Cumbria is not the South East of England, the Midlands or the Central Belt of Scotland (something for which most locals are eternally grateful) and the traffic flows I could see for a passenger rail service would be marginal.

 

Apologies if this is seen as negative, but despite my personal wishes to see this happen, if I was holding the purse strings and looking at value for money and prioritising spending (especially in an era of austerity) then I really cannot see that the Keswick line would be attractive.

[Reorte]

...while on the other side of the A591 I took a couple of shots down the station access road. I assume that there used to be a road-over-rail bridge, but of this there was no sign at road level (unless I missed something).

I think that it's been filled in so barely a trace left.

[ozzyo]

 

, neither is Carlisle which is the only city of any real size in Cumbria.

 

 

 

Small point Carlisle is the only city in Cumbria. The next biggest place is Barrow-in-Furness just about as far away from Carlisle as you can get.

 

OzzyO.

[ben racey]

I strongly disagree with this, should it reopen a line integrated into the national network with good facilities for luggage/bikes and reasonable journey times would serve the market much better.  Anything much more than half an hour to Penrith would be unattractive to locals, and through ticketing would be essential to entice tourists travelling from further afield.  Although I'm pessimistic about the prospects of the line re-opening, I can see its value and wish for its success.  When accidents have closed the A66, the diversionary routes take a long time, well over an hour.  I could well envisage shoppers using the trains, Lidl and Morrisons are pretty handy for Penrith station, and Keswick only has the pricy Booths and a small Co-op. With a senior's railcard, that could have a strong social value.  Younger residents might use it to go and socialise at McDonalds!  On a personal level, I'd definitely use it.  My in-laws live near Threlkeld, and often I just can't face the car journey from Cheltenham.

 

Being a modern railway doesn't preclude a seasonal heritage operation to bring in extra income such as the Jacobite, Cambrian Coast or Shakespeare Express, although that does require additional infrastructure such as loops at the terminus.  However, a heritage line with a light railway order means slower journeys and higher ticket prices for "ordinary" travellers, as well as a general trend to seasonal-only services and a shorter operating day.

I did say I was awaiting the lottery win.....

 

Richard.

[melmerby]

I think that it's been filled in so barely a trace left.

Levelled would IMHO be a better term as what is left looks as if it could have been a level crossing!

 

Ground level view from road precisely where the railway bridge was (looking towards platform location):

http://goo.gl/maps/YpLZa

 

Aerial view showing that the track bed is still very obvious:

http://goo.gl/maps/2D34x

 

The station was to the right (East) of the road and it had two platforms.

One assumes that the road bridge wasn't over a cutting but rather it climbed over the railway at this point

The land is falling from top to botttom, so the road would have been at a higher level as it approached from the top (north)

The road certainly had an approach ramp from the south.

 

Keith

[Colin]

Slightly OT - if anyone happens to be researching the line around Troutbeck, I'd definitely recommend a stop at the Troutbeck Inn for good beer and excellent food!

[The Stationmaster]

Slightly OT - if anyone happens to be researching the line around Troutbeck, I'd definitely recommend a stop at the Troutbeck Inn for good beer and excellent food!

Regrettably most 'research' for costings in the initial stages does not involve site visits nowadays and neither does a lot of the subsequent work until one gets down to detail.  Hence initial costings tend to have fairly substantial tolerances built in - which is why you often hear such high prices against projects from the 'antis', who always quote the high number in the tolerance range (and are still doing so on HS2 despite properly detailed costings becoming available later).

 

Edit to correct typo

Edited April 13, 2015 by The Stationmaster

[Reorte]

Levelled would IMHO be a better term as what is left looks as if it could have been a level crossing!

At the risk of sounding like I'm just arguing to be argumentative I've got a map from the 30s showing a bridge there.

[jjb1970]

, neither is Carlisle which is the only city of any real size in Cumbria.

 

 

 

Small point Carlisle is the only city in Cumbria. The next biggest place is Barrow-in-Furness just about as far away from Carlisle as you can get.

 

OzzyO.

Indeed, you are correct. Carlisle is the only City. As well as Barrow the other area which has a reasonable population collectively is the West Cumbrian strip around Workington and Whitehaven and that area still has quite a bit of industry (though nothing like the industry it once had). The Keswick scheme would make a lot more sense if it was connecting West Cumbria to Penrith as currently that area is not very well connected. The Cumbrian Coast line is one of the undiscovered gems of UK railways for those who enjoy a scenic ride but in terms of connecting towns like Whitehaven and Workington with the rest of the country it is not particularly great. However to extend the line from Keswick to Cockermouth and Workington would be a massive escalation of the project and probably still be unattractive in terms of return on investment.

[melmerby]

 However to extend the line from Keswick to Cockermouth and Workington would be a massive escalation of the project and probably still be unattractive in terms of return on investment.

IMHO a bit of an understatement!

 

As much of the trackbed is now A66, building westward would require an entirely new alignment in most places.

 

From just north of Braithwaite to about two miles west of Embleton apart from Bass Lake station itself is all A66.

The remains of the station are still there slowly crumbling away:

http://goo.gl/maps/O6zzC

 

Cockermouth Station area is built on along with various other buildings covering bits of the trackbed through Cockermouth

From the A595 Island to by Melgramfitz wood is all A66. None of the river bridges between Cockermouth and Workington still exist.

 

Where any new alignment/stations would go is anybody's guess.

 

Keith

Edited April 12, 2015 by melmerby

[jjb1970]

Indeed, I think it is a complete non-starter, but at least if it was possible it'd be a line connecting a pretty well populated, industrialised area with the WCML via a tourist hotspot.

[melmerby]

At the risk of sounding like I'm just arguing to be argumentative I've got a map from the 30s showing a bridge there.

And I've got pictures and maps in a book showing the bridge.

Did I say anything different?

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

Indeed, I think it is a complete non-starter, but at least if it was possible it'd be a line connecting a pretty well populated, industrialised area with the WCML via a tourist hotspot.

Which could bode ill for the existing coastal route.  But as it's a total non-starter west of Keswick that simply won't happen (from that cause).

[Revolution Mike]

Which could bode ill for the existing coastal route.  But as it's a total non-starter west of Keswick that simply won't happen (from that cause).

 

I guess the coastal route is "safe" as long as Sellafield needs it.

 

Incidentally why did Corus have an interest in re-opening the line to Keswick?

 

Cheers, Mike

[melmerby]

It may have been posted earlier but I will mention them again for those coming to this topic more recently.

For anybody interested on the history and operation of the railway from Penrith to Workington there are two books which describe the line quite well, with plenty of pictures and maps.

 

Oakwood Press (OL113): "Cockermouth, Keswick & Penrith Railway" by Robert Western

(This only covers as far west as Cockermouth)

 

Silver Link: "Rails Through Lakeland" By Harold Bowtell

Two parts, covering all the way to Workington.

 

(There may be others but those are the ones I know!)

The Oakwood one is the more technical of the two but both are worth a look.

 

Keith

Edited April 13, 2015 by melmerby

[Reorte]

And I've got pictures and maps in a book showing the bridge.

Did I say anything different?

Sorry, I was only trying to be helpful.

[jamie92208]

I guess the coastal route is "safe" as long as Sellafield needs it.

 

Incidentally why did Corus have an interest in re-opening the line to Keswick?

 

Cheers, Mike

I believe that it was their consultancy arm which I think has also done work on the Wensleydale's extension to Northallerton.

However if it did get rebuilt they are in lj ne for an order of several thousand tons of new rail.

 

Jamie

[melmerby]

Sorry, I was only trying to be helpful.

It may have been how I read it, but it sounded as if you were contradicting what had been said when I was agreeing with you!

 

Keith

[Reorte]

Re-reading your post I see that I mis-read it the first time, I thought that you were saying it looked like it had been a level crossing when what you were actually saying is that it's been changed enough to look like that, not that there ever was one.

 

Perhaps I should stop digging

[The Stationmaster]

I believe that it was their consultancy arm which I think has also done work on the Wensleydale's extension to Northallerton.

However if it did get rebuilt they are in lj ne for an order of several thousand tons of new rail.

 

Jamie

Exactly so - Corus Rail Consulting did the initial, and fairly detailed, civil engineering assessment looking at restoring the route and making it suitable for 100mph running.  Their work included both plans, including the two deviations, and cross sections in order to portray the likely gradients plus of course potential and necessary bridgeworks coming out at the end with an estimated price for two cases - 100mph and 60mph.  This study was of course a place where some of the money previously raised by Cedric Martindale was spent and I doubt if it was cheap because it was certainly extensive and exhaustive - of necessity for some work I carried out on behalf of another consultancy I needed and received a complete copy of Corus' detail work in term of gradient and a very detailed study of the route - the whole lot filled a quite substantial cardboard box which arrived with me c/o a courier.

 

None of this sort of work is cheap.  Neither is some of the follow-on work although I understand the commercial study - on which my then employers were sub-contractors as our skills and expertise had previously been used by the consultancy carrying out the market assessment (and I had worked with their same consultant previously on a proposed new station scheme in Scotland) - was funded by a development agency.  The concern I was then working for also did a check assessment on Corus' work from a civil engineering viewpoint in order to check its validity and practicality - this is a common procedure where reopenings are planned;  I think I did the 4th or 5th timetable validation for the reopening of Ebbw Vale although it was mainly back-checking but I was also working up some alternatives on line capacity and working with a colleague on developing signalling plans.  I also looked at signalling for the Keswick line, a relatively minor part of my work  as it was only from a line capacity and timetable planning viewpoint although it could affect total re-opening costs; my main role was to develop the timetable and trainplan as they were needed for the commercial assessment.

 

But - as I have already said in this thread - all of this work was over 10 years ago.

[jjb1970]

The Cumbrian Coast line would be threatened by a modern direct link to the WCML from West Cumbria, especially the Southern half South of Sellafield I think. I'd really recommend anybody who has never made the trip to go up there, on a nice day in Summer it is a lovely journey and some stretches are as picturesque as railways which are much more famous for offering scenic beauty in the British Isles. The coastal stretches where the line follows the coast are wonderful. Allow plenty of time as it is not the fastest service in the world but it is well worth making the effort.

[Reorte]

And looking at another thread there are going to be some loco-hauled services along it this year. I've never been down the Cumbrian Coast line before so it sounds like a good opportunity.

[ozzyo]

I travel on part of it any time I want to go anywhere in the rest of the UK. and no two journeys are the same due to the changes in the views and the time of year.

 

OzzyO.

 

PS. the old CK&P should never have been closed.